3988 replies to this topic

[Risil]

Here's part three. Please continue comparing the performance of the two Red Bull drivers.

[Marklar]

Part 3 for the start of the summer break. Good job, gang 

[f1paul]

 

[f1paul]

FACT: This thread is leading the Driver vs Driver threads for the most parts and posts. 

Edited by f1paul, 01 August 2017 - 19:15.

[EightGear]

FACT: This thread is leading the Driver vs Driver threads for the most posts.

With only 6?

[f1paul]

With only 6?

FFS 

 

You know what I mean.

 

See edit.

Edited by f1paul, 01 August 2017 - 19:15.

[Wolbo]

Interview with Marko in Die Welt in which he briefly talks about Max. If it were a hamburger it would be a beef of mild but unmistakable criticism packaged between two buns of praise.

[EightGear]

FFS

You know what I mean.

See edit.

Sure I did, please don't take my comment too seriously.

[MastaKink]

Interview with Marko in Die Welt in which he briefly talks about Max. If it were a hamburger it would be a beef of mild but unmistakable criticism packaged between two buns of praise.

 

Still seems confident race wins are coming in the 2nd half. 

 

I wish I could share that confidence fully but fingers crossed anyway.

[Ivanhoe]

Interview with Marko in Die Welt in which he briefly talks about Max. If it were a hamburger it would be a beef of mild but unmistakable criticism packaged between two buns of praise.

Saying that Max reacts a bit uncontrolled and wants to make up too fast when things don't go his way. Think I agree with that, we saw some of that last weekend.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 01 August 2017 - 19:51.

[f1paul]

Sure I did, please don't take my comment too seriously.

 

[SenorSjon]

Unless RB improves, they will always start 5th and 6th. A good start will get you 3rd, but then you need misfortune at the front to get beyond that. From the rear, they are usually 1s/lap clear.

[RPM40]

Unless RB improves, they will always start 5th and 6th. A good start will get you 3rd, but then you need misfortune at the front to get beyond that. From the rear, they are usually 1s/lap clear.

 

Spa should be the real test imo. I personally can't see them being too competitive there, although its probably Max's best track historically so he may be able to perform well despite it, Dan is pretty handy there too. 

 

The car seems to do better when they can strip the downforce off, the drag vs downforce balance is the best in the field. I feel they lose a bit of that when they put the high df kit on the car.

[BCM]

Interview with Marko in Die Welt in which he briefly talks about Max. If it were a hamburger it would be a beef of mild but unmistakable criticism packaged between two buns of praise.

 

Without sticking my tin foil hat on, it also makes clear that both Marko and Mateschitz's primary aim if they get a competitive car is to make Max the WDC. Forget about who's quicker (although at this stage I'll say I think it's Max curse him), Ricciardo needs to wake up and smell the roses. He's being lined up as a number 2 in the team. If he wants to be WDC it won't be with Redbull.

 

Having said that I don't see Redbull challenging for WDC or WCC's in the next two years. Renault won't deliver. They don't appear to know how.

 

If Dan or Max are to become WDC's they need to leave RB.

Edited by BCM, 02 August 2017 - 04:23.

[brokeracer]

Without sticking my tin foil hat on, it also makes clear that both Marko and Mateschitz's primary aim if they get a competitive car is to make Max the WDC. Forgot about who's quicker (although at this stage I'll say I think it's Max curse him), Ricciardo needs to wake up and smell the roses. He's being lined up as a number 2 in the team. If he wants to be WDC it won't be with Redbull.

 

 

Red Bull is a marketing company at the heart of it. It doesn't take much to see the flocks of Dutch fans to see that Max has a big marketing appeal. 

 

But to me, moves like Hungary made it very clear that he's not the better bet over a season, at least not yet. His fans can think that the fact he continued while his team mate didn't is some victory for him, but that was a pretty large fumble and I don't see Daniel making a 'racing misjudgement' of that nature. 

 

I think in many ways Max has been very lucky that he's come off relatively unscathed from them this year, as like Canada, it was Vettel who got the damage and here it was Ricciardo. It won't be too long until he suffers the brunt of one of these hits himself.

[BCM]

Easy to get caught up in the Dutch fans appearing at European races and the fact that the Dutchies love wearing their orange which makes them very visible. Daniel is very popular as well, but it's not just a skip and a jump from Australia to the European rounds. Wait till races like Singapore which pulls in a lot of Aussie fans - he got a huge response when he got on the podium last year.

 

I'd also suggest that Dan is probably more popular to the neutrals than Max is just because of his (Dan's) tom foolery.

[Casey]

The Netherlands is just a small speck on the world with less residents that New York and the majority isn't into F1 , I'm sure a huge multinational as RB has a bigger perspective .

Edited by Casey, 02 August 2017 - 05:44.

[EauBleu]

Red Bull is a marketing company at the heart of it. It doesn't take much to see the flocks of Dutch fans to see that Max has a big marketing appeal. 

 

But to me, moves like Hungary made it very clear that he's not the better bet over a season, at least not yet. His fans can think that the fact he continued while his team mate didn't is some victory for him, but that was a pretty large fumble and I don't see Daniel making a 'racing misjudgement' of that nature. 

 

I think in many ways Max has been very lucky that he's come off relatively unscathed from them this year, as like Canada, it was Vettel who got the damage and here it was Ricciardo. It won't be too long until he suffers the brunt of one of these hits himself.

Missed Spain and Austria, to name but a few? I'd say he's already had his share.
 

[A3]

I think in many ways Max has been very lucky that he's come off relatively unscathed from them this year, as like Canada, it was Vettel who got the damage and here it was Ricciardo. It won't be too long until he suffers the brunt of one of these hits himself.

This is what annoys me to no end. Canada was Max's fault? Max was in front, right? Like in Hungary Dan was? How can it be his fault in both instances?

[RPM40]

The Netherlands is just a small speck on the world with less residents that New York and the majority isn't into F1 , I'm sure a huge multinational as RB has a bigger perspective .

 

Not to make it a competition, but Australia isn't really a racing country here. I've never been to the NL so I don't know about the culture, but I've found Australia has pretty slim care about motorsports unfortunately. It would be nicer if it was a bigger market here. Short of when there is drama it rarely makes the news and most think kicking a football is the aspirational goal of all athletes.

 

Just a side anyway.

[phrank]

Not to make it a competition, but Australia isn't really a racing country here. I've never been to the NL so I don't know about the culture, but I've found Australia has pretty slim care about motorsports unfortunately. It would be nicer if it was a bigger market here. Short of when there is drama it rarely makes the news and most think kicking a football is the aspirational goal of all athletes.

 

Just a side anyway.

Australia has a proper domestic racing series with V8 supercars and plenty of spectacular racing tracks, in NL we only have some spec saloon series and one proper track, Assen. Think you guys win this round..

[SonJR]

Missed Spain and Austria, to name but a few? I'd say he's already had his share.
 

Max wasn't at fault in Spain, but going three wide there and being on the outside was always a risky bet nonetheless. It showed that kind of agressive starting (the same we saw in Canada and Hungary) can do you wrong. Even if you're not the one making the mistake, you do put yourself at risk just that little bit extra.

 

It's a gamble where you're the hero if it pays off, but you can't have it both ways and not accept that you put yourself in a tricky position. In road driving terms, it's the exact opposite of 'defensive driving', not accounting for the mistakes of others. It's something Nico Rosberg learned the hard way through 2015/2016.

Edited by SonJR, 02 August 2017 - 08:52.

[Kao18]

Saying that Max reacts a bit uncontrolled and wants to make up too fast when things don't go his way. Think I agree with that, we saw some of that last weekend.

 

I believe that is fair criticism.

 

But it has to be said the amount of things not going his way have been excessive this season so in that sense I think we should cut him a little slack. Besides this urge to make up also gave us races like Singapore 2015 and Brazil 2016.

 

Still perhaps Max needed a season like this to be ready for a proper WDC fight when the time comes.

[RPM40]

Australia has a proper domestic racing series with V8 supercars and plenty of spectacular racing tracks, in NL we only have some spec saloon series and one proper track, Assen. Think you guys win this round..

 

You guys also have Zandvoort, thats a great track. One of my favourites on all of the sims. 

 

I think its probably a fair point we do have quite a lot of tracks, Bathurst and Phillip Island are both incredible venues. With the distances they seem a bit 'too far' unfortunately, Travelling between cities here is probably through several countries in europe.

[SenorSjon]

Max wasn't at fault in Spain, but going three wide there and being on the outside was always a risky bet nonetheless. It showed that kind of agressive starting (the same we saw in Canada and Hungary) can do you wrong. Even if you're not the one making the mistake, you do put yourself at risk just that little bit extra.

It's a gamble where you're the hero if it pays off, but you can't have it both ways and not accept that you put yourself in a tricky position. In road driving terms, it's the exact opposite of 'defensive driving', not accounting for the mistakes of others. It's something Nico Rosberg learned the hard way through 2015/2016.

IT WAS TWO WIDE. Only Bottas nannybraking made it three. He also braked early at T1 Hungary and pushed Verstappen off. Funny enough you won't get penalized if you push someone off and the other evades it. Ric could have run a wider line for instance.

[Casey]

You guys also have Zandvoort, thats a great track. One of my favourites on all of the sims. 

 

I think its probably a fair point we do have quite a lot of tracks, Bathurst and Phillip Island are both incredible venues. With the distances they seem a bit 'too far' unfortunately, Travelling between cities here is probably through several countries in europe.

The old Zandvoort is long gone .

[Ramon69]

To be honest, I was pleasantly surprised that he apologized to Daniel, as I expected some arrogance and immaturity.. 

[SonJR]

IT WAS TWO WIDE. Only Bottas nannybraking made it three. He also braked early at T1 Hungary and pushed Verstappen off. Funny enough you won't get penalized if you push someone off and the other evades it. Ric could have run a wider line for instance.

 

And two planes only occupy the same space the very moment they collide mid air...

[Requiem84]

And two planes only occupy the same space the very moment they collide mid air...

 

By now everyone should realize Bottas brakes way too early into the first corners after the start. 

 

At the Spain GP, this was not really established yet. But it is an emerging pattern. Spain, Baku and Hungary again. If Max does not take this into the account next time, he's not so smart. For Barcelona, I find it hard to blame him. It was actually the same move he did in Hungary into T1...

[Ivanhoe]

Still discussing this? Bottas sort of apoligized and admitted he hit the brakes too early.

And what the hack have two planes colliding in the same space got to do with this? Where's the third plane in this? 😂😂

Edited by Ivanhoe, 03 August 2017 - 16:49.

[Buttoneer]

There's a dedicated thread for the Budapest incident, please take it there.

Look, I've even posted a link;

http://forums.autosp...7-hungarian-gp/

[zanquis]

The old Zandvoort is long gone .

Just because it isn't the old track doesn't make it a bad track. It actually has a few decent places for overtaking compared to other tracks.

[zanquis]

By now everyone should realize Bottas brakes way too early into the first corners after the start.

At the Spain GP, this was not really established yet. But it is an emerging pattern. Spain, Baku and Hungary again. If Max does not take this into the account next time, he's not so smart. For Barcelona, I find it hard to blame him. It was actually the same move he did in Hungary into T1...

But how do you expect him to take it into account, braking even earlier or try to take advantage from it like a racer.

Now it becomes a bit more obvious braking T1 is a thing for Bottas at least on the inside side. Would have to dig through every start to seeif besides Hamilton last year he has more dubious starts.

I am happy that Ricciardo found his pace a bit before the summerstop lets see if second half will give better conparison.

Max has imho no specific strong or weak tracks so what is Daniels list of strong/weak again want to make sure they are locked before we get there and find them being switched 😂

[BCM]

Just because it isn't the old track doesn't make it a bad track. It actually has a few decent places for overtaking compared to other tracks.

 

I think it would be a bit like Hungary as far as races go though. Apart from the end of the main straight I'm struggling to think of where else you'd be able to pass. The corner after Masters Boch and perhaps just before the chicane towards the end of the lap?

 

Not enough concrete run off for the best drivers in the world anyway 

[Kao18]

I think it would be a bit like Hungary as far as races go though. Apart from the end of the main straight I'm struggling to think of where else you'd be able to pass. The corner after Masters Boch and perhaps just before the chicane towards the end of the lap?

 

Not enough concrete run off for the best drivers in the world anyway 

 

The flow at Zandvoort reminds me a bit of Suzuka. Which makes sense I guess because it is designed by the same guy. But yeah in it's current shape the only overtaking option for formula 1 cars would be at the end of the main straight.

 

Edited by Kao18, 04 August 2017 - 08:54.

[Requiem84]

Zandvoort is a horrible track imo, with maybe 2/3 nice corners (like Scheivlak). I did race on Zandvoort a few times with my motor bike and never liked it much to be honest. It's already very hard to overtake on Zandvoort with F3 cars and DTM cars... so with F1 it would be an even bigger disaster. 

[RPM40]

The flow at Zandvoort reminds me a bit of Suzuka. Which makes sense I guess because it is designed by the same guy. But yeah in it's current shape the only overtaking option for formula 1 cars would be at the end of the main straight.

 

 

the current cars couldn't pass at zandvoort, as the front end would wash out around that long sweeping last sector.

[lbennie]

Mark Hughes Half Term Report

 

 

Daniel Ricciardo

Championship position: 4th; Points: 117

Qualifying score v team-mate: 4-7

 

Daniel's natural way of getting results is a bit more subtle than Max's, and maybe he is a more multifaceted performer, but every bit as brilliant.

 

He is a bit more long game. He does these amazing stints on the softest tyre and he can always get the tyre to go longer than anyone else despite going really quickly.

 

You saw that at Silverstone - he started from the back row of the grid and finished one place behind Max. He's fantastic at that.

 

 

Max Verstappen

Championship position: 6th; Points: 67

Qualifying score v team-mate: 7-4

 

The points difference at Red Bull is not reflective of the competitive reality. If anything, you'd say Max has got the edge in the first half of the season in terms of raw pace.

 

Both Daniel and Max are brilliant drivers, but in very different ways. Max just grabs every opportunity and wrings its neck. It sometimes works and it sometimes doesn't. We saw that in Canada when he made that fantastic start.

 

He clipped Vettel's wing, which was fair enough as it was a racing incident, and then got the car up to second place when it had no business being there. Then at the restart he even had a go at Lewis' lead! He's never going to win the race, the car's not quick enough to do it, but he's not bothered, he's going to give it a go.

 

I love seeing that. His performance in that race reminded me of Gilles Villeneuve.

[Requiem84]

Mark Hughes Half Term Report

 

Nice assessment. Also highlights the reason I love watching Max.

 

I couldn't care less for previous Dutch drivers in F1, but Max is a different kind of cookie ;)

[carbonfibre]

Yep he gives a good assessment, Daniel is a brilliant driver and so is max, it's just the way max drives is more spectacular, people still talk about Gilles to this date although he never got a WDC for his efforts, max has that same aggressive driving approach. Let's hope one day he will get a WDC to show for his talent.

[Kao18]

 

Don't know where that is but it's almost like he misses his little brother sidekick 

[Roadhouse]

I think it would be a bit like Hungary as far as races go though. Apart from the end of the main straight I'm struggling to think of where else you'd be able to pass. The corner after Masters Boch and perhaps just before the chicane towards the end of the lap?

 

Not enough concrete run off for the best drivers in the world anyway 

 

The combination after Masters is the only spot I guess, but still really difficult to overtake there. There's alot of tarmac (for Zandvoort standards) but only 1 proper line to go through.

 

About Max:

There are alot of hypocrits when it comes to Max's agressive starts. He gets heaps of praise when it pays off, but pray to god nothing goes wrong, cause he'll get anihilated. I guess it's in our nature, we love to hate our 'heroes', ask Jos Verstappen.

 

Anyway, Max and Daniel are my 2 favourite drivers. Hope they'll forget what happend and duel like they used to, because their previous fights were nerve wrenchingly awesome. 

[Kao18]

Team mate wars: http://www.planetf1....ian-grand-prix/

 

Half season score: Max Verstappen 8 – Daniel Ricciardo 3 

[markelov74]

Team mate wars: http://www.planetf1....ian-grand-prix/

Half season score: Max Verstappen 8 – Daniel Ricciardo 3

Why do we even keep track of this? It's just a comedy series and has very little sense to it.

[Kao18]

Why do we even keep track of this? It's just a comedy series and has very little sense to it.

 

It makes just as much (little) sense as a lot of things posted here. I personally found the things they wrote about the Verstappen/Ricciardo incident and in comparison Perez/Ocon pretty accurate for instance.

 

The comedy side of it is exactly what I can appreciate by the way. But each to their own.

[V8 Fireworks]

 

 

 

Those ridiculous polluting inefficient noisy V8 cars have no place being promoted or remembered.    

[MastaKink]

Team mate wars: http://www.planetf1....ian-grand-prix/

 

Half season score: Max Verstappen 8 – Daniel Ricciardo 3 

 

Worst one yet. Doesn't even bother trying to justify giving it to Max he just does it and says hard luck Dan. 

 

I hope he's at least on the payroll.

[RPM40]

It makes just as much (little) sense as a lot of things posted here. I personally found the things they wrote about the Verstappen/Ricciardo incident and in comparison Perez/Ocon pretty accurate for instance.

 

The comedy side of it is exactly what I can appreciate by the way. But each to their own.

 

Do you work for PlanetF1? I don't get why you keep posting them here week after week, giving Hungary to Max should indicate their value as a publication. 

[RobG]

Do you work for PlanetF1? I don't get why you keep posting them here week after week, giving Hungary to Max should indicate their value as a publication. 

 

Honestly, I think giving Hungary to Max is just as silly as giving Hungary to Daniel. For this race it could go either way. If you want to put a value their publications other examples are more valid. 

[Requiem84]

Do you work for PlanetF1? I don't get why you keep posting them here week after week, giving Hungary to Max should indicate their value as a publication.

Prior to this race your position was that the driver who won Q and ended up first in the race won the weekend...