61 replies to this topic

[Gary Davies]

How good do we think Tony Brise might have been if he had lived? I recall him as being most impressive in the "preparatory" formulae, and taking to Formula One in a highly convincing manner.

Anyone got a view on his potential?

[Frank de Jong]

I'm afraid the Hill car would have ruined his career. In 1976, many cars were competitive (Ferrari, McLaren, Penske, Tyrrell, Ligier, even March...), and I can't see Hill as a great teamboss. Too many promising careers were ended this way, but, on the other hand, you never know...

[David M. Kane]

Frank makes a very valid point about being in the wrong car at the wrong time; however, I saw Tony Brise race that car
at Watkins Glen and he was fairly impressive. Unfortunately,
we never got a chance to see the saga play itself out.

A lot of the F1 one people still remembered what he had done
at Long Beach in that F5000 car.

He had all of the necessary skills and he certainly wasn't lacking in confidence. Could he have taken the political crap?
Who knows, but regarding Graham as a manager that part I can't
answer, but he certainly would have learned how to plow only through tough times. Graham was a fighter!

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Frank de Jong
I'm afraid the Hill car would have ruined his career. In 1976, many cars were competitive (Ferrari, McLaren, Penske, Tyrrell, Ligier, even March...), and I can't see Hill as a great teamboss. Too many promising careers were ended this way, but, on the other hand, you never know...

Hmm..............

Brise had Alan Jones as team-mate in four GPs that year, he outqualifed him every time.
Jones went on to race a Surtees in '76 and never finished better than 1 lap down on the winner except on the 14 mile plus Nurburgring.
Didn't stop Jones having success later in his career though.

Rosberg had four seasons in: Theodore, ATS, Wolf, and Fittipaldi - finished in 14 of 54 starts. WDC in the following season.

Brise had no money and made slow progress up the racing tree. He had to spend a season in F Atlantic in '74, despite having won both British F3 series (one jointly) in '73.

He had, however attracted the recognition of B. Ecclestone as early as '72 - Bernie's Brabham BT28 wasn't up to the job, but I'm sure the BE connection led to the Hill drive.

IMO the jury on TB's likely future will remain for ever out. Just not enough evidence.

[BRG]

As i recall, there was a bit of a buzz about Tony Brise at the time - many people saw him as the next big thing (well, they did in Britain anyway). And he was certainly talented. If he had shown well, there is no reason why a bigger team might not have picked him up, just as McLaren signed Hunt from Hesketh.

We will never know, but as a postscript, his brother Tim went into rallying and caused a real stir by leading the RAC Rally. At the time, he was little known even in Britain and there were no top line British rally drivers, so his sudden appearance as a rally leader caused a lot of muttering by the rally establishment.

Whether Hill would have made a good team manager is a moot point. Remember he started as a gofer and mechanic for Lotus and then became a driver. So perhaps that makes him more like Ron Dennis than Alain Prost. And he surely had learnt from the unique Colin Chapman, both what to do, and what not to do!

[Kpy]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
but he certainly would have learned how to plow only through tough times. Graham was a fighter!

Yes, but ultimately fatally determined. He was advised to divert to Luton because of fog at Elstree. He continued - his car was at Elstree and he lived nearby - and his was not the only life to be lost.

[David M. Kane]

Very true, too true...imagine how Ted Wentz the American who was the Lola test driver who decided to pass on the offer to fly back with the Embassy crew because he was supposedly tired and said he would wait until the next day?

As to the Bernie piece, lets remember that at one time Bernie
had not only been Jochen Rindt manager, but also Graham Hill's.
Bernie also put one Michael Schumacher in the Jordon.

So what is your exact point? I would very much agree with the
gentleman who pointed out Ron Dennis's background. Graham Hill
could charm a hissing Cobra and that my friend is the nature of
getting sponsors and keeping them. The Embassy team was only in
there second season, I believe, when all of this happen or am
I having a senior moment? How quick we are to judge.

[Frank de Jong]

The Embassy team should have started its fourth season (one with Shadow, two with Lola's subsequently Hill cars). So they had quite some experience by then.
The other point that I was trying to make was the car. The 1976 Hill GH2 was designed by Andy Smallman, another victim of the plane crash. Andy had worked with Elden, than he modified the Lola T371 into the Hill GH1. Now the GH2 would have been the first full F1 car designed by Smallman. Although we will never know, the car could have been a risk for Brise's career.
Does anyone know what ever happened to the GH2? Was it ever raced/ (It was tested, though).

[fines]

Wasn't Smallman at Lola in 1974 and responsible for the T370 design? Anyway, the GH2 looked a bit strange!

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by fines
Wasn't Smallman at Lola in 1974 and responsible for the T370 design?

"Lola, the illustrated history" only links Smallman with the T371 and the Hill GH1, but perhaps he was involved in the T370 as well.

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Frank de Jong

Does anyone know what ever happened to the GH2? Was it ever raced/ (It was tested, though).

GH2/1 is at National Motor Museum Beaulieu, Hants.
Never raced - it was destined for 1996 season after all. Many problems had been encountered at that Ricard test session according to Doug Nye.

[David M. Kane]

Kpy:

I stand corrected, I didn't realize all the problems involved with that car. As Graham's crash and Kennedy's crash showed us, don't fly when you are tired or when you are under a lot of stress!

[fines]

David, thanks for that advice!!! Henceforth I shall stay away from my collection of aeroplanes when under stress!

[Barry Boor]

Well, here goes Boor - out alone on a limb again.

I think Tony Brise would have developed into the fastest thing these shores have produced since Jim Clark. Maybe not with the Hill, but he would have been snapped up by McLaren or someone similar pretty quickly and I believe would have gone on to great things.

But then again, I've been wrong before.............

[Frank de Jong]

Okay, Barry, let's play this thing through.
Scenario A.
Brise would have had a decent season. Who would have hired him for 1977? McLaren (instead of Mass); Wolf - probably not. Lotus? probably not. Tyrrell? That would have finished his career. March? Same. Brabham? could be. ATS-Penske? Shadow? he could have made quite some mistakes choosing the wrong team, Tyrrell the most obvious example.
Scenario B.
Ferrari signs Brise, who had a great start of the season, within hours of Lauda's Nürburgring accident. Now THAT could have changed the world as we know it...

[Ray Bell]

As long as we live with surmise... why not just change the date of Graham's fatal crash (preferably leaving Tony Alcock out of it too!)... maybe until the day after Tony Brise signed with Ferrari.

I don't see Tyrrell as a player for him. Tyrrell would have been more likely to bring him into F1, not continue his career.

That limb is a bit shaky, Barry. What props have you got to shore it up?

[Gary C]

I'm of the opinion that Tony Brise would have become one of the greats. All that I have heard of him (F3 then F5000 etc) lead me to believe that he would have been one of the stars of F1 from 77 onwards.

[David Beard]

From Karting magazine, July 1975...

[f1steveuk]

That isn't Tony Brise is it?

I saw a GH2 at Indy, being driven by a Japanese chap. GH2/1 did have a few problems, but I thought most had been ironed out in GH2/2, but I do not know if that was on paper, or in the metal. Didn't Damon drive a GH2 as well?

As for Tony, would have been one of the greats, I saw him at Brands in a Modus, and regardless of flappy valves etc, he was bloody awesme to watch. His younger brother Simon sent me some pictures of a young Tony, karting, I'll go look.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Well, here goes Boor - out alone on a limb again.

I think Tony Brise would have developed into the fastest thing these shores have produced since Jim Clark. Maybe not with the Hill, but he would have been snapped up by McLaren or someone similar pretty quickly and I believe would have gone on to great things.

But then again, I've been wrong before.............

I have to say that I totally agree with you Barry, Tony was an unbelievable talent, I watched him through his career including his early years and had more than a passing interest, as he was a local lad and was also very active in the Motor Club scene.Tim as mentioned earlier,took the R.A.C. by storm in an RS1800 and had almost as much talent as his brother.Sad that Tony never got the ultimate prize that I believe he was capable of, even sadder that my other hero was piloting the plane......


Sterling

[sterling49]

Originally posted by David M. Kane

Graham Hill could charm a hissing Cobra and that my friend is the nature of
getting sponsors and keeping them.

How right you are David, how I miss Graham's post race interviews, his acerbic wit was almost as much fun as watching him race, very much a part of my growing up at Brands, listening to Anthony Marsh and his commentaries. I still don't know who I would rate as the most amusing, Graham or Frank G.

Sterling

[sterling49]

Originally posted by David Beard
From Karting magazine, July 1975...

I bought some of the Bardahl for my Mini Cooper from Tim at a Bexley Light Car Club meeting (used to meet in the old Pavillion at Brands), and before you smart members say it was for karts etc, they had a UCL version also!!!

..........didn't seem to make my car any faster though

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Frank de Jong
I'm afraid the Hill car would have ruined his career. In 1976, many cars were competitive (Ferrari, McLaren, Penske, Tyrrell, Ligier, even March...), and I can't see Hill as a great teamboss. Too many promising careers were ended this way, but, on the other hand, you never know...

Damon Hill's time at Brabham didn't ruin his career... I'm sure enough people knew how good Tony was to make allowances for how bad GH2 was likely to have been.

[RTH]

Originally posted by sterling49



I have to say that I totally agree with you Barry, Tony was an unbelievable talent, I watched him through his career including his early years and had more than a passing interest, as he was a local lad and was also very active in the Motor Club scene.Tim as mentioned earlier,took the R.A.C. by storm in an RS1800 and had almost as much talent as his brother.Sad that Tony never got the ultimate prize that I believe he was capable of, even sadder that my other hero was piloting the plane......


Sterling

Oh absolutely right Sterling, I used to watch him in F3 , he was just a different class !

[Penword]

Regarding Graham Hill as a team owner/manager, when recently reading the Autopsort report of the 1977 Spanish Grand Prix -- in which Patrick Neve debuted a Frank Williams March with some Saudia backing -- Nigel Roebuck mentions that Graham Hill had apparently been lining up something with the Saudis at the time of his death.

Of course, we all know how that Saudia backing worked out for Sir Frank...

John Hopkins
Stirling, Canada

[Jerry Entin]

Tony Brise was Graham Hill's protege and more. Graham had the utmost faith in Tony's talent. I don't think Tony would have ever left Graham's guidance. He had a lot of faith in Graham doing the right thing by him. Teddy Yip was very keen to bring Tony to Indy if it wouldn't have conflicted with Formula One. I am sure this would have happened. Graham Hill seemed to only be looking after Tony Brise's interest. I am sure if he couldn't have fielded a good car for Tony he would have still watched over his career. I have seen a lot of drivers over the years and I would say Tony Brise was as good as they come.
I feel Parnelli Jones had the best quote about Tony Brise's talent. When he came over to the pits after the Long Beach Formula 5000 race in 1975, he said :" What planet did you get that kid from?"

[COUGAR508]

Originally posted by Penword
Regarding Graham Hill as a team owner/manager, when recently reading the Autopsort report of the 1977 Spanish Grand Prix -- in which Patrick Neve debuted a Frank Williams March with some Saudia backing -- Nigel Roebuck mentions that Graham Hill had apparently been lining up something with the Saudis at the time of his death.

Of course, we all know how that Saudia backing worked out for Sir Frank...

John Hopkins
Stirling, Canada

That's fascinating, and something that I was not previously aware of. Truly a case of what might have been...

[f1steveuk]

And Alfa Romeo engines, but a short man nicked the deal ;)

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
And Alfa Romeo engines, but a short man nicked the deal ;)

Yerrrs well... didn't exactly do Bernie a lot of good did they? (presumably apart from being free).

Gordon Murray's on record as having said he reckons Brabham could've gone on winning with BT44-DFVs until ground-effects came in... and with the right driver I think he's probably right...

[f1steveuk]

BCE may well have done Graham a favour there! Gordon told me, every engine was different, and had to be shimmed in place, adding hours to an engine change.

I recall Mario Andretti had nothing but praise for Tony Brise, again from an F5000 race.......

[Bonde]

Was the GH2 ever tested in post-April 1976 aerodynamic configuration? I've only ever seen it depicted with 1975-style aerodynamic configuration (sorry, 'aero-package' in Newspeak). IMO, it was quite a handsome car, even if initially troublesome.

Although GH2 had some serious teething troubles, the 1976 season was still some way off, and the GH1 was eligible until the beginning of the European season, so there was still time for development and improvement.

I don't know if the GH2 chassis was adequately stiff, but assuming it was, most other things in those pre-aerodynamics-governs-all days could have been sorted out. Off-hand, the only thing that looked really 'iffy' to me on the GH2 were the radiators - they appear to be quite small.

I'm sure both Brise and the Hill team would have come good - of course also depending on how they each had responded to the soon-to-arrive ground effects era...

I still rember crying as a 15 year old teenager when I heard of Graham's death. NGH was and remains one of my all-time favourites. Was there ever a more charismatic driver?

[RS2000]

I was talking to someone on the other side of the Atlantic at the end of last year who raced in F3 in 1973. He was apparently a good friend of Tom Pryce, had seen Roger Williamson race and had known James Hunt as an extended guest in his home. However, coming to the subject of Tony Brise, he immediately volunteered the opinion that he was on a different, higher level of ability/potential.

I'm not sure I agree (earlier posts) that there were no top UK drivers in rallying at the time Tim Brise led the 1980 RAC Rally. Tim Brise was I'm sure "thereabouts". He had a bit of a wasted time in the Fiesta that Ford were trying to develop as an interim Escort replacement. He was in the right car (Escort) on the right tyres (anything but Dunlop...Kleber in his case, which may have had the advantage of Michelin and Pirelli on that first "stately home stages" day). Roger Clark was beyond his peak and in the wrong car by then. Maybe Russell Brookes had peaked. Jim McRae, despite being older, maybe had not yet peaked. Most insiders would agree Tony Pond was quicker than the rest by then (but in the wrong car - the TR7V8 simply wasn't right for unseen forest rallies). It's a view that Dunlop lost the 80 RAC for Mikkola and Vatanen: Toivonen did not win it from sheer brilliance but with Michelin Tyres and the retirement of Kullang and Waldegard, who both led him....so who knows what Tim Brise would have done without the "terminal" electrical problems the first night.

[Alan Cox]

I circulated the attacehed letter at the recent TNF Northern Chapter pub night, and some thought that it might be worth posting here. The content is not particularly revelatory, but some of you may find it of interest. Tony Brise was one of my heroes at the time, as you can probably gather..

[David M. Kane]

Jerry:

I didn't attend the Long Beach race; but like I said I did see at Watkins Glen in the Hill and you could easily see he was special, very special. I met him briefly at Val Musetti's mom's Italian Restaurant, though not as engaging as Roger Williamson you could tell he and James Hunt had a lot of respect for him just by their body language and their conversation with him.

Alan you are very lucky to have that letter, I'm impressed. You must have been over the moon at the time you received it!

I'd forgotten that he was married.

[sterling49]

Great letter Alan, really shows that the rising stars then (and the established ones!) had their feet attached to the ground and, (as I believe Lewis does) find themselves very privileged and honoured to be doing their particular line of work...brilliant that Tony took the time to reply to you, but then again, he was an active member also of local motor clubs. Great days, thanks for posting the letter and sharing.


Sterling

[David M. Kane]

Jerry:

Parnelli ought to know talent when he sees it!

Wonder what Brian Redman thought of Tony?

[picblanc]

Originally posted by Alan Cox
I circulated the attacehed letter at the recent TNF Northern Chapter pub night, and some thought that it might be worth posting here. The content is not particularly revelatory, but some of you may find it of interest. Tony Brise was one of my heroes at the time, as you can probably gather..

Isn't that great!! thanks for letting us see that Alan.

[COUGAR508]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
BCE may well have done Graham a favour there! Gordon told me, every engine was different, and had to be shimmed in place, adding hours to an engine change.

I recall Mario Andretti had nothing but praise for Tony Brise, again from an F5000 race.......

I have read some quotes from Mario along the lines of saying that Brise was something really special, based on his performance in the Long Beach F5000 race. I think it's safe to say that Mario has never been one to indulge in hyperbole, so that is praise indeed.

[Nanni Dietrich]

During 1975 season Tony Brise outqualifed all his team mates in almost EVERY GP he ran: Alan Jones, Vern Schuppan, Rolf Stommelen, François Migault.

In his first F.1 start at the Montjuich for the unfortunate Spanish GP, he qualified his Williams in 18th place (on 24 starters) and during the race he progressed to the 6th place, until Stommelen's accident happened.

Then he was called by team Hill (Graham Hill in 1975 was still one of the drivers) to replace just the injured Stommelen, but at Monaco the team entered only one car for Hill (who didn't qualify and probably decided at the moment to abandon racing) and Tony Brise raced the F.3 supporting race in a Modus, being hit by Ribeiro at the Mirabeau while battling for the lead.

In Belgium for the following GP Brise drove for the first time the Embassy-Hill #23 and qualified it in an astonighing 7th. The next GP at Anderstorp he finished 6th scoring his first and only Championship point. His best start of the year happened at Monza when he qualified 6th.

If, as we said, we all think the Embassy-Lola (or Hill GH1) wasn't so good (similar to a 2007 Toro-Rosso or Spyker), what Brise did is just great! It is unbelievable in 2007 for us to imagine a Toro-Rosso or a Spyker (or also a... Honda ) starting from the 6th place...


Tony's wife Janet Brise had a short motorsport career, driving small sportscar and touring-cars in female races, if I remember well.

[Alan Cox]

Yes, Nanni, Jan Brise became part of the John Webb Brands Hatch "Charm School", and raced in Debenhams Escorts and Sports 2000. There are some pics on the women drivers thread.

[Arjan de Roos]

In the Donington Collection you can find a original helmet and overall tucked away in one of the cabinets.

[pwvalentine]

Rather than making a new thread, I thought it better to post this here. I have recently acquired a few Silverstone programmes from 1975 and (after having recently read The Lost Generation) one appears to be signed by Tony Brise:



The programme is from the John Player Atlantic International meeting on 4th May 1975, which Tony won. The autograph appears genuine, matching other examples I have seen online, so it looks like a stunning stroke of luck to come across it - thought it might be appreciated to share the image of Tony in his prime.

[Phil Rainford]

The other autograph is that of TNF contributer Ted Wentz.... I have Ted's autograph from 1975 and the one you have looks genuine: so it would make sense that Tony Brise's is also the genuine article


PAR

[Marc Sproule]

One of my recollections from the F5000 race at Long Beach was how much all of my racing friends were impressed by Brise.

Here's a pic of him from the weekend with Hill, Teddy Yip and Carl Haas.

http://www.flickr.co...57623186807369/

[jj2728]

USGP 1975

[seccotine]

Didn't Brise have this "modern driver" quality that made the difference in those days? The kind Stewart and Lauda had.

[MCS]

Didn't Brise have this "modern driver" quality that made the difference in those days? The kind Stewart and Lauda had.

Certainly not, in my opinion - where did that come from?

In Formula Three he was fortunate to be able to change chassis mid-season to his advantage - in each season he was in F3 - and he was only the John Player F3 champion in 1973 because he scored double points in the final round (40) to beat Alan Jones who had stayed with with his contracted DART-GRD drive throughout the year when everybody else had baled out to March (Ensign lot included).

Anyhow, here's an autograph to back up pwvalentine's terrific purchase;


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Giraffe]

I was introduced to Janet Brise at British GP just recently.


Long Beach '75 pics.........

Teddy Yip in the hat & team manager Sid Taylor far right......


By giraffe138 at 2010-07-26

By giraffe138 at 2010-07-26

Carl Haas nosin'............

By giraffe138 at 2010-07-26

By giraffe138 at 2010-07-26

Graham Hill was on the team that day.........


By giraffe138 at 2010-07-26

Photos courtesy of the Sid Taylor Collection.

Edited by Giraffe, 26 July 2010 - 21:43.

[Jerry Entin]

Tony: That is Kerry Agapiou and Graham Donaldson in the picture.
Julian Randels was also on the car.
Julian Randels is ducked down at the back in the second and third picture.

In the group picture it is Graham Donaldson on the front, Carmen Entin with the fan in her hand Gordon Calhoun from Goodyear and Jerry Entin. Kerry Agapiou in the middle of the Lola and at the back of the car are Julian Randles and Sid Taylor.

In the picture with Graham Hill and Janet Brise, that is Graham Donaldson with them.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 27 July 2010 - 02:20.

[Giraffe]

Tony: That is Kerry Agapiou and Graham Donaldson in the picture.
Julian Randels was also on the car.
Julian Randels is ducked down at the back in the second and third picture.

In the group picture it is Graham Donaldson on the front, Carmen Entin with the fan in her hand Gordon Calhoun from Goodyear and Jerry Entin. Kerry Agapiou in the middle of the Lola and at the back of the car are Julian Randles and Sid Taylor.

In the picture with Graham Hill and Janet Brise, that is Graham Donaldson with them.

Thanks for that info Jerry!

(I'm about to e-mail you).

Edited by Giraffe, 27 July 2010 - 06:15.