76 replies to this topic

[BalanceUT]

The fact that younger persons are not very much interested in driving is  a pretty big deal now. In the US we see increasing numbers of teens who are of driving eligible age putting off and refusing to get their licenses. Generations past we were chomping at the bit to get our license. Now, not so much. The reason may be related to the reason we wanted our license: the ability to socialize with our age group at people's houses, movies, malls, etc. Now, the socializing happens via social media to such an extent that the pressure to be able meet in person is low.

 

https://www.theatlan...eration/534198/

[Rob]

One of the problems is that insurance is so expensive for youngsters. In the UK, the average cost of insurance for 17-22 year olds is £1400 per year. That's insane.

[Richard T]

Kids need someone to relate to, then the interest in the sport will come.

[chunder27]

The problem is the desire to drive.

 

Kids these days want phones more than cars.

When iw as a kid I could not wait to drive, not just to get around, but to get to meetings.  

 

The motivation for kids driving now in wanting to drive is drifting, showing off etc, there was always that aswell, but there was more of a link to racing I believe!

[F1matt]

It's probably the least accessible of all sports unless you have ridiculous amounts of money regardless of how talented you are, the driver pool is diminishing and we are left with the children of billionaires and sons of racing drivers, who in the right mind would jump in an uber to get home to watch that?

[chunder27]

Agreed matt

 

Where are the governing bodies trying tog et youth interested in racing, trying to make it more accessible?

 

They do absolutely nothing in the UK, are a total waste of space when it comes to trying get people interested in taking part in motorsport.

 

In other countries I think they make some efforts.

 

I know it's always been an expensive sport, but at the very bottom end it should not be.

 

There are no ideas, no big push, no-one driving forward with a bit recruitment drive.

 

it is just being left as you say to rich kids.  And that was not always the case, invariably but not always.

[garoidb]

It's probably the least accessible of all sports unless you have ridiculous amounts of money regardless of how talented you are, the driver pool is diminishing and we are left with the children of billionaires and sons of racing drivers, who in the right mind would jump in an uber to get home to watch that?

 

While not denying that, there is some comfort in considering that the absolute top drivers do not come from that source. Lewis Hamilton, Sebastien Vettel, Fernando Alonso, Michael Schumacher and others spring to mind, even though the sport has been highly expensive for a long time. None of these come from a wealthy background. Nico Rosberg is an obvious counter example (also Jacques Villeneuve and Damon Hill), but for all the "sons of" that have tried their hand at climbing the ladder, not too many have made it to the very top. 

[Bleu]

I don't think Damon's background was that wealthy - the lack of insurance in the Graham's plane crash derailed most of what Graham had achieved in his career.

[Vitesse2]

I don't think Damon's background was that wealthy - the lack of insurance in the Graham's plane crash derailed most of what Graham had achieved in his career.

Correct. Afterwards there was no money for school fees, so he had to leave and ended up working on building sites and as a motorbike courier. Tried (and failed) to make it in the music business. The big family home with masses of land which Graham had bought had to be sold and Bette and the children moved to a North London suburb.

 

Damon goes into some detail about this in his recent autobiography 'Watching the Wheels'. An excellent read. He did, incidentally, eventually return to education and now has a degree from the Open University.

[F1matt]

I think the comments regarding Damon Hill back Chunder27's argument up very well, he was helped by the BRDC and the sport got behind him because of his name, why couldn't they do this for a handful of gamers on an annual basis? Imagine the publicity and promotion they could generate from a programme like this, younger people who shun the sport might take an interest and more people may attend events at Silverstone other than than F1 then it becomes a success story. Here. I am not looking to criticise young drivers but I would be more surprised if Mick Schumacher and Guliano Alesi didn't make F1.

[garoidb]

I don't think Damon's background was that wealthy - the lack of insurance in the Graham's plane crash derailed most of what Graham had achieved in his career.

 

Yes, that is true. I simply meant that he was the son of a former racing driver, and that is a fairly small pool from which many aspirant drivers emerge, although few as successfully as Damon.

[chunder27]

There are numerous things to raise here.

 

Having a famous name or a difference of some kind like Hamilton or being female is a marketing teams dream.  Think of a Pic, Vergne, Kvyat or Buemi.  Talented, deserving of being there, but instantly forgettable in marketing terms, they offer nothing new for sponsors.

 

A famous name or a black kid or a woman does, harsh as it may sound, new markets, different markets.  Look at Ericsson, his backers are so keen they basically bought the team he was in!!  He is nothing special, but you can't fault the enthusiasm of his backers. That is taking driver backing to a whole new level.

 

So a new Alesi kid or Schumacher will get there because of marketing first, as well as talent.  Sad. And too much pressure on them.

 

Regarding gamers, I think Mardenbrough has set it all back a bit. He was supposed to be a shining light and then they got hugely negative PR with his crash at the Nordschleife.  That is NOT what companies like Nissan, Sony or the like want.  None of the other people who have won have done anything remotely worthwhile other than the first lad who won, so I think that gimmick has been proven to be a failure in terms of producing racing drivers.

 

I have said all along, if I had that much money spent on me in terms of training and gifted drives, I along with millions of others could do as well as they did.  It proved nothing really, but was a great marketing gimmick.

 

Nothing whatsoever is being done by our insipid MSA to push kids into having a go, I would love to know how much money they have, how much they could throw at a total novice race recruitment drive.  But sadly they do absolutely nothing and to me are a total embarrassment when you compare them to FFSA or ADAC for instance.

[BRG]

Nothing whatsoever is being done by our insipid MSA to push kids into having a go, I would love to know how much money they have, how much they could throw at a total novice race recruitment drive.  But sadly they do absolutely nothing and to me are a total embarrassment when you compare them to FFSA or ADAC for instance.

I have sometimes been known to disagree with some of your statements.  But not with this one.  The MSA has a mission and a strategy, but it is inexplicable to anyone outside Colnbrook and it certainly isn't about developing or promoting British motor sport. 

 

MSA's first and only priority seems to be covering it's arse against the apocalyptic lawsuit that they have persuaded themselves is bound to come.

 

MSA = Must Stop Autosport

[jjcale]

There are numerous things to raise here.

 

Having a famous name or a difference of some kind like Hamilton or being female is a marketing teams dream.  Think of a Pic, Vergne, Kvyat or Buemi.  Talented, deserving of being there, but instantly forgettable in marketing terms, they offer nothing new for sponsors.

 

A famous name or a black kid or a woman does, harsh as it may sound, new markets, different markets.  Look at Ericsson, his backers are so keen they basically bought the team he was in!!  He is nothing special, but you can't fault the enthusiasm of his backers. That is taking driver backing to a whole new level.

 

So a new Alesi kid or Schumacher will get there because of marketing first, as well as talent.  Sad. And too much pressure on them.

 

Regarding gamers, I think Mardenbrough has set it all back a bit. He was supposed to be a shining light and then they got hugely negative PR with his crash at the Nordschleife.  That is NOT what companies like Nissan, Sony or the like want.  None of the other people who have won have done anything remotely worthwhile other than the first lad who won, so I think that gimmick has been proven to be a failure in terms of producing racing drivers.

 

I have said all along, if I had that much money spent on me in terms of training and gifted drives, I along with millions of others could do as well as they did.  It proved nothing really, but was a great marketing gimmick.

 

Nothing whatsoever is being done by our insipid MSA to push kids into having a go, I would love to know how much money they have, how much they could throw at a total novice race recruitment drive.  But sadly they do absolutely nothing and to me are a total embarrassment when you compare them to FFSA or ADAC for instance.

 

This is a logical assumption - but it is only an assumption ....  which is why I am so glad (and more than a little relieved) that you can make a good case that the first black guy got there because of talent and not just marketing.... in fact if you look closely Ron made him prove his talent by having to win each series before being promoted which meant he got there at age 21/22  which does not suggest over-promotion given the young age that some drivers start nowadays.

 

We have had some south and east asian drivers - none have been great, maybe one or two have been good and the others, it is clear, got to F1 only because of sponsorship - but not western sponsorship. Nobody went for them because they were "different" - indeed the opposite - generally they were very much like the people sponsoring them and that was the main reason why they received such sponsorship. 

 

We could throw south americans into this post but I wont as I dont think they are sufficiently "different" and generally the ones that have got to F1 (or stayed in F1) because of sponsorship more than talent tended to get that (undeserved?) sponsorship from their own countries. 

 

As yet there has not been a female driver of any real note so we cannot say concretely whether you assumption would apply - we can only speculate ... and for once, I dont think it is appropriate to do so  - given the concrete examples that we have to work with in other categories. .  

 

We should be careful about A) making sweeping statements based on general principles - esp where the application of those principles in not specifically based on experience with regard to the specific topic at hand and only analogous in the context being discussed. and B) the sample size in F1 is so small that we do not need to do this so we should instead look at the specific facts/instances before drawing conclusions. 

 

In my view, looking at the specific examples in F1 there has yet to be a driver promoted for marketing reasons on the basis of being a politically correct "other" - that may happen in the future but it has not occurred yet. And the drivers who were promoted for marketing reasons were very much like their backers rather than being somehow different from them.  

 

I wont get into the of sons of professional drivers who manage to get to F1 and whether they had an easier time of it than anyone else - but I would suggest that the existence of this group is another factor which would tend to falsify the idea that there is - or might be - advantage in being "different" so as to be, possibly, attractive to sponsors. 

[king_crud]

Wings.

they were the band the Beatles could have been

[chunder27]

I make sweeping statements because they are fun and based on open, obvious fact.

 

There are so few top level black, Asian, African, female racing drivers around right now other than Lewis, Danica and a few others.  There are some in certain series, and a lot in lower ranked (in some peoples opinions) non MSA series.

 

The Asian scene is picking up, especially in bike racing where Honda and Yamaha are really pushing there as their market there is vast.

 

But in car racing the barrier is clear. It is cultural, and also not helped by a lack of effort from FISA and motoring and motorsport groups in general, they mainly worry about safety and/or making money.

 

You can hide behind the PC tripe if you like, but I prefer to be open about it. It doesn't hurt anyone.

 

Lewis was marketed from a very early age, and to his families credit his colour was a by product, but it was ALWAYS a hidden factor in the media interest in him, and if you say otherwise you are naieve I am afraid.  But similarly to Tiger Woods, he also happened to be brilliant at what he does. 

[Dick Dastardly]

Banning road races such as the Targa Florio....

Also stopping having the British GP at Brands, I always prefer that circuit to Silverstone

Edited by Dick Dastardly, 14 August 2017 - 11:18.

[jjcale]

I make sweeping statements because they are fun and based on open, obvious fact.

 

There are so few top level black, Asian, African, female racing drivers around right now other than Lewis, Danica and a few others.  There are some in certain series, and a lot in lower ranked (in some peoples opinions) non MSA series.

 

The Asian scene is picking up, especially in bike racing where Honda and Yamaha are really pushing there as their market there is vast.

 

But in car racing the barrier is clear. It is cultural, and also not helped by a lack of effort from FISA and motoring and motorsport groups in general, they mainly worry about safety and/or making money.

 

You can hide behind the PC tripe if you like, but I prefer to be open about it. It doesn't hurt anyone.

 

Lewis was marketed from a very early age, and to his families credit his colour was a by product, but it was ALWAYS a hidden factor in the media interest in him, and if you say otherwise you are naieve I am afraid.  But similarly to Tiger Woods, he also happened to be brilliant at what he does. 

 

How can you say that something is a fact if it has not yet happened?? No one has ever made it to F1 on the basis of being different in a way which is attractive to marketers.

 

Its not unreasonable to assume that this is a real possibility but you have to concede - and you have conceded - that at this point, it is only a possibility. 

 

You say LH was "marketed from an early age" .... do you mean he was sponsored from an early age? Which is true .....or that he was used by [not sure who] for marketing purposes from an early age??  Which, so far as I know, is not true. 

 

Of course LH's colour was interesting before he became successful in F1 - and it still is afterwards .... but we are here discussing whether it was a primary reason for the support he got at lower levels ... and, maybe you dont realise it but you seem to have conceded the point: as you already accept that it was "a byproduct" - by which I think you mean, it was not the main reason for the early support.and you also accept that he is "brilliant at what he does".

 

There isnt much difference between what we are saying - and the only real point here is that whilst I accept that we may well see someone get to F1 for purely (or even mainly) marketing reasons based on some attractive difference from the "norm" it has not happened yet (and it may well never happen).... and we should bear this fact in mind. 

 

I dont see why it is "PC tripe" to point this out  ... I am not getting into feelings and assumptions, I am just stating a fact - in order to put your assumption in its proper context. 

[chunder27]

Lewis was in the mainstream media from an early age, how many others karters are?  Not very many. He was "interesting" to the media.

 

I am not at all suggesting it was a reason he got to where he has, that is folly.

 

But it was certainly a factor in enabling his family to create a profile. Although they will never see it like that and quite rightly.

 

Every single GT Academy driver you have seen is a result of marketing.  None of them would have got to where they have without that experiment, and for me it has largely failed with very few of them going on to better things or becoming massively successful.  The McLaren thing is better, sim driver is a more suitable role.

 

the vast majority of female racing drivers use their gender as a promotional tool if they are at a level beyond club racing.  Be it getting drives, using the media or sponsors.  

[HeadFirst]

Justin Beiber turning up at F1 races.

[Montie]

The current state of the LMP1 class.

[427MkIV]

The deaths over 6-8-year-period of Tim Richmond, Davey Allison, Alan Kulwicki and Rob Moroso and the serious injury of Ernie Irvan seriously impacted NASCAR's ability to grow in the 90s. Yes, it grew incredibly, but mainly due to Gordon helping make it acceptable to the mainstream -- and that growth was, to coin a phrase, a mile wide and an inch deep. And restrictor plates taking away the record speeds also hurt, IMHO.

 

Later, the deaths of Adam Petty and Dale Earnhardt hurt badly right when NASCAR was starting its major network TV deals.

 

The COT killed NASCAR for many longtime fans. A decade later NASCAR is still trying to get over that crisis.

[John B]

Indycar split, the 1994 F1 accidents, the NASCAR COT (the current 4-driver, 1-race championship is a farce IMO as well) as mentioned are all good choices. I'm not a fan of Indy cars on high speed ovals, and if they continue to have fatalities at fairly short intervals relative to other series that could qualify.

 

F1 in 1982 had to deal with unsafe cars at the height of the turbo/ground effect era, there were several lucky escapes in addition to Villeneuve and Paletti deaths, plus all the politicking that included the Imola and Brazil fiascos with lightweight cars etc.

[Kalmake]

What was wrong with COT?

[427MkIV]

What was wrong with COT?

 

It was an ugly spec car that wasn't a very good race car. When the cars are all the same, it takes away the interest of people who are fans of Fords, Chevrolets, Mopars, etc.

[InSearchOfThe]

The deaths over 6-8-year-period of Tim Richmond, Davey Allison, Alan Kulwicki and Rob Moroso and the serious injury of Ernie Irvan seriously impacted NASCAR's ability to grow in the 90s. Yes, it grew incredibly, but mainly due to Gordon helping make it acceptable to the mainstream -- and that growth was, to coin a phrase, a mile wide and an inch deep. And restrictor plates taking away the record speeds also hurt, IMHO.

 

Later, the deaths of Adam Petty and Dale Earnhardt hurt badly right when NASCAR was starting its major network TV deals.

 

The COT killed NASCAR for many longtime fans. A decade later NASCAR is still trying to get over that crisis.

Even though I wasn't a fan, The death of Dale Sr. ended a huge following in Nascar. 

 

At least in my circles.

 

I wouldn't watch it now unless you paid me.

[Music Lover]

I would argue that WW1 and 2 were the best two things that ever happened to motorsport. Sure, formal racing stopped during those years. However both wars mobilised literally millions of young men across the globe, teaching them how to maintain and improve mechanical equipment in the field which they could use to tinker with and improve race equipment, giving them the money (ok this is predominantly in post-war USA) to buy cars and go racing afterwards. This meant that racing cars and bikes stopped being a pursuit for the very rich allowing normal people to join in increasing its popularity. Several continents were dotted by airfields that were soon abandoned for young men to drive fast on providing the infrastructure for cheap racing. Many countries were left with hundreds of thousands of young men who had an adrenaline shaped hole in their lives which many filled with driving very fast. The wars encouraged high level engineering particularly in aerospace. Post-war this meant that motorsports teams could pick up highly qualified engineers for a pittance. For Germany and Japan in particular with a post-war ban on developing military equipment, going into automotive engineering in general and motorsport in particular were the only paths towards utilising their skills and experience.

I don't think its a coincidence at all that even today the countries where motorsport is most popular were all major participants in WW1 and WW2.

Spot on!!
Well done