57 replies to this topic

[Alan Cox]

News of a new TV documentary on Mike Hawthorn to be aired on the Yesterday TV channel on 20th August
https://yesterday.uk...hawthorn-limit/

Another film in the pipeline called 'La Scuderia' is being produced by Artemis Films, but no release date announced
http://www.artemisfi...lascuderia.html

[kayemod]

News of a new TV documentary on Mike Hawthorn to be aired on the Yesterday TV channel on 20th August
https://yesterday.uk...hawthorn-limit/

 

It was half over before it registered with me, but I think the Mike Hawthorn one is the first of a series of five or six on different drivers.

[2F-001]

I saw the trailer; I think it said in the text-over that the episodes cover Hawthorn, Hill, Surtees, Clark and Stewart.

[Glengavel]

These are the documentaries have previously been on BBC4, are they not?

[cpbell]

These are the documentaries have previously been on BBC4, are they not?

I'm sure that all bar the Hawthorn and possibly Surtees documentaries are indeed those that were first shown on BBC4,

[2F-001]

Do you think these are related to the documentaries that were sent out a while back by Motor Sport, on dvd, as a freebie to subscribers?

[doc knutsen]

Do you think these are related to the documentaries that were sent out a while back by Motor Sport, on dvd, as a freebie to subscribers?

There was no Hawthorn story included in the Motor Sport DVD package.

[Vitesse2]

The Hawthorn programme is new. Tony Bailey and Paul Skilleter - author and publisher of 'Golden Boy' - have been involved with the production, although it's not based on the book.

 

The others are presumably from the 'Racing Legends' series which aired on BBC, but haven't previously been shown on Yesterday.

[Collombin]

Bumpy Bumpus.

[Vitesse2]

I doubt he's in it!

[Paul Parker]

Some of the talking heads were worthy of the effort, most notably messrs Nye and Taylor but what was David Coulthard doing onscreen?

 

Additionally the repetition of some of the film clips was surely not necessary, there must be enough footage of Hawthorn to cover an hour programme without resorting to this. Some of the clips of Hawthorn being interviewed were very interesting but the subject deserved far more time and analysis although this presumably would be unacceptable to the broadcaster, too long and too expensive I suppose, no doubt some of it ended up on the proverbial floor.

 

I was unaware of the Martin Shepherd book Too Fast a Life which according to the online blurb is a lightly fictionalised story of Hawthorn starting with the 1955 Le Mans tragedy, has anybody here read this and if so what was the verdict?

[Allan Lupton]

Some of the talking heads were worthy of the effort, most notably messrs Nye and Taylor but what was David Coulthard doing onscreen?

The use of Tony Brooks was also worthy and well worth paying attention to.

 

As I sometimes have the subtitling on I was irritated that they twice wrote "Rouen" when someone had said "Riems" - presumably because it was pronounced the French way and not "Reems"

[kayemod]

Generally, I thought it was good, I enjoyed most of it. A very minor point, but the line "...and Stirling Moss had signed for Vanwall" was accompanied by footage of The Man clearly driving a Cooper.

[Bloggsworth]

Generally, I thought it was good, I enjoyed most of it. A very minor point, but the line "...and Stirling Moss had signed for Vanwall" was accompanied by footage of The Man clearly driving a Cooper.

 

There was a lot of that...

[Stephen W]

Not a bad effort, I would say 7 out of 10 "could do better". I have already set my BT Box to record the next programme.

[Tim Murray]

I was unaware of the Martin Shepherd book Too Fast a Life which according to the online blurb is a lightly fictionalised story of Hawthorn starting with the 1955 Le Mans tragedy, has anybody here read this and if so what was the verdict?

Here's what Jack-the-Lad wrote about it in the books thread, in response to a similar query from me:
 

I read it a couple of years ago. I would not call it a deeply researched, authoritative biography, but it was a bit of fun. I generally dislike these "imagined" biogs, as in "The Limit."

I decided to save my pennies.

[pete53]

Overall I thought it was a pretty good programme. Yes, it would have been good to hear a bit more from Hawthorne himself although I don't how know how much interview material exists. It was good to have the input of Tony Brooks, but similar recollections from Stirling, as one of the only other contemporaries of Mike Hawthorne left, would have been welcome.

 

In respect of Paul Parker's query about David Coulthard being involved - well I can only guess that the makers felt the need to include a driver from a more modern era to give his two-pennorth. To be fair, wasn't Coulthard known, in his time, as being one of the few drivers who had some appreciation of the history of the sport (or am I thinking of someone else)?

 

I also noticed that they didn't mention the name of Rob Walker as being the driver in the Mercedes who was "dicing" with Mike at the time of his accident.

[Paul Parker]

The use of Tony Brooks was also worthy and well worth paying attention to.

 

As I sometimes have the subtitling on I was irritated that they twice wrote "Rouen" when someone had said "Riems" - presumably because it was pronounced the French way and not "Reems"

 

Yes, I forgot Tony Brooks as I posted this on the move in a hurry, my apologies.

[PRD]

Given that Doug Nye spoke about the Hawthorn vs Moss for the World Championship in 1958, and that the comparisons with Sir Stirling were often made in the film, its a pity that they didn't interview him.

[Vitesse2]

Since Sir Stirling has been unwell for some time I suspect his health may be the reason.

[arttidesco]

 

 

I also noticed that they didn't mention the name of Rob Walker as being the driver in the Mercedes who was "dicing" with Mike at the time of his accident.

 

IIRC Rob Walker had retired from racing but not competition well before 1955 ?

[56Lotus]

I watched the Doc with interest and was happy to spot a fleeting glance of my car with Hawthorn sat it it.  I've already spoken to the production team about getting this footage and they were more than helpful.  They also said there was much more footage of Hawthorn out there but their budget was very small and they couldn't afford to use all they wanted.  So perhaps a no expense spared documentary is needed.

[Barry Boor]

I also found the repeated clips of film rather tedious and smiled at Moss in the Cooper - Vanwall. However, despite its repetition I loved the shot of Mike exiting the chicane at Goodwood. Lovely.

There were some bits of film that were new to me but the thing which stood out from everything else was, unless my old eyes were deceiving me, one clip of the 1958 Ferrari with a completely different tail to anything I've seen before.

Or was I imagining it?

[MargaretM37]

I very much enjoyed this documentary and would not have known that it was on without this thread. Thanks Alan Cox ! 

[cpbell]

I also found the repeated clips of film rather tedious and smiled at Moss in the Cooper - Vanwall. However, despite its repetition I loved the shot of Mike exiting the chicane at Goodwood. Lovely.

There were some bits of film that were new to me but the thing which stood out from everything else was, unless my old eyes were deceiving me, one clip of the 1958 Ferrari with a completely different tail to anything I've seen before.

Or was I imagining it?

I've just seen it, as we were at a friend's house when it was shown.  I enjoyed it, and, with the exception of the error regarding Srling's car, thought it was well-produced.  I'm also intrigued by the shots of the car at the Nurburgring.  My initial reaction was to wonder whether the film had been compressed horizontally, but I rather doubt it as the rest of the frame appeared fine.  I'm going to have to do some research to determine whether there was any modification to the tail of Hawthorn's car for that event.

[cpbell]

This appears to be the footage used, and the tail of Hawthorn's car does appear noticeably unusual:

https://www.youtube....h?v=8QyJbrHirlQ

Edited by cpbell, 21 August 2017 - 20:51.

[Collombin]

Not seen it yet (Poconoing when it was being broadcast), but didn't Ferrari take one of the Monzanapolis cars to the Ring? That could be what you are referring to.

Edited by E.B., 21 August 2017 - 20:39.

[cpbell]

I think it's a standard F1 car for that season but with a higher tail, presumably to suit Hawthorn's stature.

Edited by cpbell, 21 August 2017 - 20:51.

[Rob Miller]

Looking at the car #3 at the start, and then later on with a high tail, the number 3 on the right-hand rear seems higher up and the circle smaller in diameter.

 

I don't think that the footage of the car with the high tail was taken during the race.

[Collombin]

And we know Mike used the Monzanapolis car in practice.

[pete53]

IIRC Rob Walker had retired from racing but not competition well before 1955 ?

I think we may be talking at cross-purposes here - the "accident" I was referring to was Hawthorn's fatal crash on the Guildford bypass and not a racing accident.

[Stephen W]

Overall I thought it was a pretty good programme. Yes, it would have been good to hear a bit more from Hawthorne himself although I don't how know how much interview material exists. It was good to have the input of Tony Brooks, but similar recollections from Stirling, as one of the only other contemporaries of Mike Hawthorne left, would have been welcome.

 

In respect of Paul Parker's query about David Coulthard being involved - well I can only guess that the makers felt the need to include a driver from a more modern era to give his two-pennorth. To be fair, wasn't Coulthard known, in his time, as being one of the few drivers who had some appreciation of the history of the sport (or am I thinking of someone else)?

 

I also noticed that they didn't mention the name of Rob Walker as being the driver in the Mercedes who was "dicing" with Mike at the time of his accident.

 

 

IIRC Rob Walker had retired from racing but not competition well before 1955 ?

 

 

I think we may be talking at cross-purposes here - the "accident" I was referring to was Hawthorn's fatal crash on the Guildford bypass and not a racing accident.

 

In the programme they made reference to Hawthorn dicing "with a former racing driver in a Mercedes 300SL". 

[cpbell]

Looking at the car #3 at the start, and then later on with a high tail, the number 3 on the right-hand rear seems higher up and the circle smaller in diameter.

 

I don't think that the footage of the car with the high tail was taken during the race.

 

 

And we know Mike used the Monzanapolis car in practice.

It must have been that car, I suppose, although I thought it was a 1957 chassis that was used at Monza for that event (or am I thinking of Castelotti's entry with the 4.1 litre sportcar engine from '57?)

[Charlieman]

I enjoyed the programme. Most British F1 champs and near champs were around while I was growing up. Mike Hawthorn and Jim Clark raced and died before I was aware of motor sport. 

 

There are a lot of contemporary news reports about Jim Clark and I find much to like about the character of the man. Hawthorn was a different personality and this documentary shows him to be a more complex character than one captured in a series of race reports. I'd love to know about the internal politics in Ferrari when an ex-driver returned to the team, won the F1 drivers' championship and retired.

 

Simon Taylor made an interesting point about club/national racing in the 1950s boosting the chances of British drivers like Hawthorn. 

[elansprint72]

Rather good I thought, better than most other similar efforts recently; of course the old grumps on here will pull anything and everything to pieces.      And I thought I could grump for England; actually I can and do!.

Some rarely seen (unseen?) footage and I had no idea that he was in such poor health. I look forward to the next episodes.

[Roger Clark]

Looking at the car #3 at the start, and then later on with a high tail, the number 3 on the right-hand rear seems higher up and the circle smaller in diameter.

I don't think that the footage of the car with the high tail was taken during the race.

I'm sure you're right. The Monza car had the oil tank moved from the tail to the side of the scuttle, hence the differently shaped tail. It also had coil instead of leaf springs at the rear.

[Odseybod]

Enjoyed it more than I expected to, especially the period colour footage. I hadn't realised that the green top/jacket discussed in another thread here was worn by him throughout most of his career (or perhaps he had several of them?). Certainly looked the part and maybe helped maintain a BRG stance, even when seen in one of 'those bloody red cars'.

[kayemod]

... I hadn't realised that the green top/jacket discussed in another thread here was worn by him throughout most of his career (or perhaps he had several of them?). Certainly looked the part and maybe helped maintain a BRG stance, even when seen in one of 'those bloody red cars'.

 

He must have got through an awful lot of them, bow ties too, perhaps he got a bulk deal? As you say, this has been discussed here before, but consider Sir Stirling's oil & dust covered face, white where he'd removed his goggles, cars were messy old things back then. No thin cotton jacket could withstand that kind of treatment for long, doubt if it would clean off very effectively.

[Paul Parker]

He must have got through an awful lot of them, bow ties too, perhaps he got a bulk deal? As you say, this has been discussed here before, but consider Sir Stirling's oil & dust covered face, white where he'd removed his goggles, cars were messy old things back then. No thin cotton jacket could withstand that kind of treatment for long, doubt if it would clean off very effectively.

 

I seem to recall that after he died his mother burnt all his clothes according to someone decades later, just cannot remember who, perhaps Chris Nixon who I knew quite well.

[56Lotus]

I'm the one who's been looking into his jackets.  He seems to have worn "normal" jackets until about 53.  From then on he seems to have worn several different types of green jackets.  The closest I've found is the French "worker jacket".  I've bought one off ebay which is an exact match for one of the earlier jackets, just in blue.  In the time they were just work wear so I'm assuming he bought then through the TT garage and changed them regularly.  I've seen very similar in green I'm just waiting for the right one to turn up.

[elansprint72]

Harrington jacket?

[MCS]

Harrington jacket?

 

Well, similar at least. Good suggestion.

 

After a quick dig ont'internet suggests that similar jackets were around from the late thirties.  "Baracuta" is one name that appears a few times...

[Tim Murray]

Here's the earlier thread discussing the jacket:

Mike Hawthorn's Green Jacket

[MCS]

Here's the earlier thread discussing the jacket:

Mike Hawthorn's Green Jacket

 

And what did I post then...?

 

Not long now...

[RobertE]

I saw it and thought it rather better than the average offering. Messrs. Nye and Brooks were very good. The 'fictionalised' Martin Shepherd account of Hawthorn's life was utter crap and a complete waste of time. "Imagine; they cut down good trees to print this stuff..." (Brian Donlevy, in The Great McGinty (1940).

[Alan Cox]

Did anyone watch the Graham Hill documentary on Sunday night? Was it one which had been broadcast previously?

[RobertE]

I believe it was; certainly, I recalled some the interviews.

[Stephen W]

Did anyone watch the Graham Hill documentary on Sunday night? Was it one which had been broadcast previously?

 

I think it was a combination of previously aired interviews, some new interviews plus old footage.

[Paul Parker]

Did anyone watch the Graham Hill documentary on Sunday night? Was it one which had been broadcast previously?

 

 I did and it was from long ago, I recall seeing it about 2006 or thereabouts, it included a much younger Damon and also Bette and I presume that the others which included Stirling Moss, Jim Clark and John Surtees will be repeats too.

[Gary C]

was the Graham Hill programme 'Driven' directed by Mark Craig? If so , I thought it was on a par with the Jim Clark 'Quiet Champion' doco.