39 replies to this topic

[Charlieman]

Infiniti (Nissan) have created a prototype single seater for a class of racing which does not exist. It's just a show car built to generate publicity for the manufacturers. And the styling is all very retro.

 

 https://www.theverge...electric-nissan

 

But in creating the retro look, the designers have addressed two of the problems with recent single seaters. This car has skinny tyres and no aerodynamic protuberances.

 

Most of us love the myth that racing improves the breed (or "win on sunday, sell on monday"), but it becomes more difficult to justify when racing cars look so different from road cars. I'm not arguing that this show car looks like a road car -- but it represents an ideal which an enthusiast might assemble as a kit car. I think it is great because so many of the factors which make a great 2017 F1 car are irrelevant to road cars (aero...) or becoming commonplace (transmission, carbon fibre, hybrid engines). Why not acknowledge reality in that F1 is rarely a source of great new ideas (F1 develops things created elsewhere) and that racing cars do not have to resemble scaled down F1 cars. Racing cars should be about fun.

 

I don't think racing cars have to improve the breed to justify their creation. But a race series for that show car (and competitors) might be interesting. No aero gadgets -- that requires designers to address front end lift by creating noses and simple floor panels. Skinny tyres -- keep them on the road using the least technology. We might learn something useful.

 

Ignore the silly grille, excessive cockpit length and wire wheels. Imagine building your electric Cooper to beat it.

[Radoye]

Methinks a Lotus 56 lookalike would be very successful in such a racing series. Generally wedge shaped with a flat slanted top surface, electric motor behind the cockpit, the floor shaped to function like an inverted wing.

[Charlieman]

Methinks a Lotus 56 lookalike would be very successful in such a racing series. Generally wedge shaped with a flat slanted top surface, electric motor behind the cockpit, the floor shaped to function like an inverted wing.

A bit of a wedge to create natural downforce and a bit of a wedge to cut the wind? Remember that the Nissan Leaf engine generates 140hp so there isn't a lot of power to lose. What was the engine power during the 1.5 litre F1 era -- 190bhp?

[RonPohl]

When formula e was announced, I was hopeful that they would go in a "retro" direction - that is skinny tires, low down force. Lacking the sounds that we love, e racing is just not inspiring. Imagine if they cornered like a drift car, you could see the drivers elbows working and tires smoking through the turns. Instead - well, its of no interest to me.

[Radoye]

A bit of a wedge to create natural downforce and a bit of a wedge to cut the wind? Remember that the Nissan Leaf engine generates 140hp so there isn't a lot of power to lose. What was the engine power during the 1.5 litre F1 era -- 190bhp?

 

 

This is kind of what i had in mind:

 

[Charlieman]

The car looks imbalanced. You must design the car so that the nose never lifts. Never.

[BRG]

Infiniti (Nissan) have created a prototype single seater for a class of racing which does not exist. It's just a show car built to generate publicity for the manufacturers. And the styling is all very retro.

Looks like a Merc W125 with one of those ugly Infiniti grillles grafted onto it.  Why does an electric car need a grille? 

 

But otherwise, it looks fun and probably preferable to those Formula E cars which are all styling and no functionality.

[Sisyphus]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose.  While I don't personally think much of the Nissan design, I do like the skinny tires and NO AERODYNAMICS!  But is it different enough from Formula E?

 

I've seen an announcement of a proposed series for the Tesla S which has the advantage of appealing to those who like racing sedans.

[sabrejet]

Formula E - though no doubt a draw for manufacturers - lacks imagination in its current form. If it's to be considered a serious branch of motorsport they need to get rid of the gimmicks and open up the regulations a great deal more. Design-wise they look look much the same as any other single-seater race car and for me that's just one reason why it leaves me cold.

 

But fingers crossed the new regs will make it something else.

 

In the meantime that Infiniti is just another example of lazy-design retro tat.

[E1pix]

Great OP, Charlieman.

I personally like the car. While I have equal shares of lust for retro and disdain for electric, at the same time it's a bit sad to recognize we need to go back to go forward... meaning, in acknowledging that new designs just have so little sex appeal.

[Stephen W]

This is kind of what i had in mind:

 

 

 

The car looks imbalanced. You must design the car so that the nose never lifts. Never.

 

I would have thought that the batteries would be in sidepods either side of the driver and would therefore counter-balance the motor and keep the car firmly planted on the road.

[D-Type]

I would have thought that the batteries would be in sidepods either side of the driver and would therefore counter-balance the motor and keep the car firmly planted on the road.

Now we are talking sense.  They could be designed to be replaceable at pit stops. 

Edited by D-Type, 16 August 2017 - 08:30.

[Darren Galpin]

This racing already exists - the Greenpower Racing series - you just want bigger batteries. See http://www.greenpower.co.uk/racing, specifically the Corporate Challenge. This uses existing 12V car batteries together with swaps, and the top teams can get 70mph out of it.

[LotusElise]

I've come to like Formula E. The racing itself tends to be close and the tactics are interesting.

 

That Nissan prototype is great. I don't know why electric cars have always been so disgustingly ugly up until recently. A different power source should not necessitate a hideous lego brick-shaped body.

 

Electric cars should really be a mature technology by now. I was reading the entry list for the 1902 Bexhill Speed Trials last night and there was a whole class for electric touring cars. Queen Alexandra of England was also a fan of electrically-powered motoring in her little Victoriette.

[E1pix]

I would have thought that the batteries would be in sidepods either side of the driver and would therefore counter-balance the motor and keep the car firmly planted on the road.

I think he meant the curvature under the nose would encourage launching.

That'd be particularly bad upon battery impact. And what of that? Serious question, what does FE do to prevent batteries from bursting apart on impact?

[DogEarred]

In a nutshell, the battery/chassis combination undergoes front & rear impact tests similar to those in Formula 1. The batteries should still be usable after the test.

 

 

(Sorry, not actually in a nutshell but in a carbon composite shell)

Edited by DogEarred, 16 August 2017 - 16:01.

[E1pix]

Amazing -- considering battery weight and impact G-forces.

Imagine trying to do this in, say, a March 751...

[Stephen W]

This racing already exists - the Greenpower Racing series - you just want bigger batteries. See http://www.greenpower.co.uk/racing, specifically the Corporate Challenge. This uses existing 12V car batteries together with swaps, and the top teams can get 70mph out of it.

 

I will again be attending the Greenpower Racing event at Aintree on the 20th September this year. It is the only form of 4 wheel racing on the old Club Circuit.

[Charlieman]

That'd be particularly bad upon battery impact. And what of that? Serious question, what does FE do to prevent batteries from bursting apart on impact?

I had a nice chat with one of the lads looking after a Formula Student car on display at a historic meeting. I asked him about Lola Limp because the pedal box on the car was so far forward. He was unaware of the Lola Limp concept (before his time, fairly) but he argued that the front of the chassis provided enough protection for lower limbs. Some of it was designed to deform, some of it to be really rigid.

 

You can apply the same principles to battery enclosures. A bigger problem with Li-ion batteries is internal heat and shorting which might create fires inside the car. I am sure that electric racers pick their battery suppliers carefully because we don't see battery fires very often. I'm more worried about Li-ion battery fires on road cars and the difficulty for fire fighters to determine how to tackle the blaze. Plus the cleanup exercise, for road and racing car battery fires, must be tricky.

[Charlieman]

I've come to like Formula E. The racing itself tends to be close and the tactics are interesting.

 

That Nissan prototype is great. I don't know why electric cars have always been so disgustingly ugly up until recently. A different power source should not necessitate a hideous lego brick-shaped body.

 

Electric cars should really be a mature technology by now. I was reading the entry list for the 1902 Bexhill Speed Trials last night and there was a whole class for electric touring cars. Queen Alexandra of England was also a fan of electrically-powered motoring in her little Victoriette.

Formula E cars are pretty big, have wide tyres and have aero downforce add-ons. They could race on conventional tracks but they have too much cornering power and insufficient speed to create attractive racing. For various reasons, it was decided that races would be on new road and parkland tracks -- narrower than a conventional track. Logically, one would create Formula E cars which were narrower, on skinnier tyres and with less downforce than a typical single seater. Give the drivers a chance to pass on narrow tracks. Instead the series designers copied stuff that already raced. 

 

I wish the FE competitors well. Ditto for the participants in Greenpower racing.

 

It's strange how Porsche forgot about the Lohner-Porsche Mixte (1900-1905) until other manufacturers made a noise about their hybrids. Perhaps Porsche mythology about embracing brave ideas is not what it seems.

[LotusElise]

Formula E cars are pretty big, have wide tyres and have aero downforce add-ons. They could race on conventional tracks but they have too much cornering power and insufficient speed to create attractive racing. For various reasons, it was decided that races would be on new road and parkland tracks -- narrower than a conventional track. Logically, one would create Formula E cars which were narrower, on skinnier tyres and with less downforce than a typical single seater. Give the drivers a chance to pass on narrow tracks. Instead the series designers copied stuff that already raced. 

 

I wish the FE competitors well. Ditto for the participants in Greenpower racing.

 

It's strange how Porsche forgot about the Lohner-Porsche Mixte (1900-1905) until other manufacturers made a noise about their hybrids. Perhaps Porsche mythology about embracing brave ideas is not what it seems.

 

 

One of the things I like about Formula E is that the cars actually pass one another during races.

[E1pix]

Purist. ;-)

To wit, any talk in FE, etc. about -- dare I say -- fake exhaust notes? I know, makes me see funny, too...

A friend has a wicked VW Golf. Now hold on, it's chipped and turbo'ed to 400 bhp and even more torque.

Point being, engine notes pumping from the dash are not real. Drove it for 20 minutes and was utterly fooled. Sounded like part Audi Le Mans coupe, part Mugen-Honda.

I'd take that over watching race cars quieter than my karts.

[LotusElise]

I remember watching a gas turbine car (probably a Chaparral) going up the hill at Goodwood and being intrigued by the humming engine, which was so quiet you could hear the gears click-clacking and the suspension squeaking.

[Lee Nicolle]

Power from an electric motor is not a problem, driveability however is.

And the elephant in the room,,battery life and battery weight. And ofcourse battery safety.

Electric cars have been around over a hundred years and none of the above has really ever been adressed.

So we continue to have Micky mouse racing with silly looking cars on street tyres that have to stop and change cars in a very short period.

As for road cars?  WHERE will the electricity come from? This in a world with electricity  in short supply already. THAT is the largest problem and the look at me I am green lobby has no idea!

[Ray Bell]

You know, Lee, that's something that hasn't been mentioned anywhere!

Or is the plan to get us into all-electric stuff so coal remains essential, then to cut off the coal so we have nothing to drive?

[E1pix]

I remember watching a gas turbine car (probably a Chaparral) going up the hill at Goodwood and being intrigued by the humming engine, which was so quiet you could hear the gears click-clacking and the suspension squeaking.

Did Hall build a turbine car?

Or was it the Howmet?

[timbo]

Scalextric have always made the best electric racing cars.

[E1pix]

Perhaps... Except there's no room for fans, birds, and bratwurst stands.

[LotusElise]

Did Hall build a turbine car?

Or was it the Howmet?

 

Probably the Howmet, actually. I remember the noise and the rear view that looked like an industrial refrigeration unit. 

[Roger Clark]

Power from an electric motor is not a problem, driveability however is.

And the elephant in the room,,battery life and battery weight. And ofcourse battery safety.

Electric cars have been around over a hundred years and none of the above has really ever been adressed.

So we continue to have Micky mouse racing with silly looking cars on street tyres that have to stop and change cars in a very short period.

As for road cars?  WHERE will the electricity come from? This in a world with electricity  in short supply already. THAT is the largest problem and the look at me I am green lobby has no idea!

According to this, a switch to electric vehicles would add just 10% to UK power demand.

 

https://www.carbonbr...uk-power-demand

[uffen]

According to this, a switch to electric vehicles would add just 10% to UK power demand.

 

https://www.carbonbr...uk-power-demand

Plugging in an electric car is like plugging in another house. But, the draw is over after four(?) hours. So, while the average may be 10% there are peaks and valleys which could be too much for the grids. In Canada we can easily generate the power, but delivering it to all areas is difficult due to the grid capacity limitations in older areas.

The other issue is the idea that batteries/electrics are (virtually) 100% efficient. A car takes a lot of power to move along. The battery that has used up all it's motive power (i.e. can no longer push a car along) still packs a punch. Used as a storage battery it would still have a lot to offer. So, you're putting a lot more power into a car battery pack than you can ever use to move your car along. it is akin to not being able to use the last quarter of your tank in a gasoline powered car.

[Ray Bell]

And how much would that 10% become in places where much longer distances are the norm?

How many top-ups would be required if one were to take a quick drive from Brisbane to Melbourne?

[Valvert]

Fuel duty in the UK raises 27,5 billion a year for the government. (Actually more, because every litre sold is also subject to 20% VAT). If everyone switched to electric vehicles tomorrow the government would have a serious budget shortfall. They will compensate this of course, but imagine your electricity bill raising 1000+ pounds! Logging on to TNF would suddenly become quite expensive.

[Ray Bell]

A very good point...

And considering the planned ban on IC vehicle sales, they must have something in mind already!

Mind you, there are places in Australia where families are already paying that much for mains-supplied electricity.

[DogEarred]

Next season, (2018/19) Formula E battery supply will switch from Williams Advanced Engineering units to McLaren Applied Technologies.

 

The new units will provide enough energy for a whole race, without the need to switch cars.

 

Williams Advanced Engineering obviously did not advance enough...

[Stephen W]

Next season, (2018/19) Formula E battery supply will switch from Williams Advanced Engineering units to McLaren Applied Technologies.

 

The new units will provide enough energy for a whole race, without the need to switch cars.

 

Williams Advanced Engineering obviously did not advance enough...

 

Will that mean that there will be twice as many cars on the grid?

[Michael Ferner]

So, F1 teams are involved? Or is it just names coincidence?

[Stephen W]

So, F1 teams are involved? Or is it just names coincidence?

 

Probably not as the current F1 teams do have experience with electrickery and with Porsche joining in next season Formula E could get a much needed lift.

[DogEarred]

I think both WAE & MAT are involved not directly to benefit their F1 teams (although that may fortuitously happen in the future) but as a 'side line' of growing electric & hybrid technology.

Williams sold their (flywheel) hybrid arm a couple of years ago. Not such a good move but probably necessary for cash flow purposes & will bring them royalties. The technology was used in the Audi Le Mans cars for several years.

 

Maybe Formula E will improve in the future but I still can't watch it, although I find the power/speed tactics interesting. It seems a little like skate board racing around backstreets & has a kind of novelty 'fairground' atmosphere.

It has some obviously good drivers, who can't find drives elsewhere, who are forced to use desperate tactics because of the nature of the formula & therefore making themselves look amateurish sometimes.

Edited by DogEarred, 22 August 2017 - 09:09.

[Charlieman]

There is an excellent (and long, 1,000+ comments) discussion in The Technical Forum about electric road cars and the realities of power generation etc. The debate goes round in circles like motors and dynamos...

 

http://forums.autosp...-vehicles-work/

 

Formula E is pretty good evidence that motor sport is interesting to manufacturers for publicity and as a training ground for engineers, but that the original science and engineering occurs elsewhere. The involvement of Williams and McLaren is based on the commercial side businesses rather than the F1 teams. As Formula E develops, FE teams will design more of the car for themselves which is why manufacturers are getting involved. It is also a reason to believe that costs will rise, with privateers and small companies being pushed out of the series they helped create. I think we have seen that elsewhere too often.

 

When you attend the theatre, it's the show that matters. You can admire high tech special effects in the West End or immerse your imagination at an amateur production. To raise sponsorship and goodwill of company boards, we exaggerate how much motor sport breeds a better road car, because it is still all about the show. It's about David and Goliath, or supporting Red, Green, Blue and Silver cars. Formula E is a great opportunity to put on a racing show to a new audience -- it is getting there -- but it won't happen if the big manufacturers are allowed to dictate the rules.