24 replies to this topic

[RandomG]

Am curious about researching the involvement of Grand Prix / Formula One drivers and people that had involvement in the Second World War?

 

IE, roles and service records or even civilian involvement.

 

Have compiled a few names but details are pretty scare on the internet. So I am curious to see what information the Autosport members might have?

 

The people I know about:

 

George Abecassis

Kurt Adolff (details?)

Jack Brabham

Tony Gaze

 

Will update the list as I find more members.

[Charlieman]

For the French and Anglo-French racing drivers pre WWII, have a read of Joe Saward's book. 

[Tim Murray]

This earlier thread includes the names of a number of drivers who died during WW2:

Racing drivers killed at war

[Vitesse2]

A few OTTOMH:

 

Tony Rolt - captured at Calais 1940. Spent the war 'in the bag', escaped several times, ended up in Colditz, involved in the glider escape plot. Won two Military Crosses - for service in the defence of Calais and services rendered while a PoW.

 

Leslie Brooke - George Medal for gallantry during a rescue as a member of the ARP.

 

Bira and Chula - both served in the Home Guard. Bira later joined the RAFVR as a glider pilot/instructor. Wanted to be a pilot, but eyesight not good enough! Chula was prominent in the Free Thai movement in Britain.

 

Whitney Straight - served in the RAF, shot down, escaped, ended the war as an Air Commodore.

 

Reggie Tongue - RAF in Britain and West Africa, test pilot for Rolls Royce.

 

René Dreyfus - French army reservist on the Western Front, serving with the comedian Fernandel. Given leave of absence to race at Indianapolis 1940, discharged in America after the fall of France. Later served in the US army, in North Africa, Italy and France.

 

René Le Bègue - tank officer in the French army. As with Dreyfus, given leave of absence for Indy 1940. Returned to France, then back to the USA for Indy 1941. Remained in the US (hoping to race in 1942!) Later joined the Free French forces.

 

Harry Schell - US army.

 

Jean-Pierre Wimille - French Armée de l'Air. Demobbed 1940. Later worked with 'W Williams' and Robert Benoist in the French Resistance. Several other French racers were involved in Resistance activities - a few were killed (see Tim's link).

 

Arthur Dobson - RAF, but 'let go' for unspecified reasons (possibly drink!) Was running a company 'in radio' in 1944 according to Motor Sport.

 

Malcolm Campbell - trained motorcyclists for the British army. Was involved in the collection and analysis of beach sand samples in the preparations for the invasion of Europe.

 

John Cobb - served in the RAF. Has a very small 'bit part' in the film Target for Tonight, which featured real RAF personnel.

 

Raymond Sommer - French army, Demobbed 1940. Some reports say he was briefly in a PoW camp in Germany.

 

Louis Chiron - decamped to his home in Switzerland. May have been involved in Resistance work.

 

Pete dePaolo - USAAF. Posted to Switzerland and was responsible for the welfare of US aircrews who had force-landed there and were interned. Renewed acquaintance with Caracciola and was instrumental in the invitation for him to race at Indy in 1946.

 

Manfred von Brauchitsch - desk job in the Wehrmacht. Allegedly did some tank testing. Ended the war in a sanatorium.

 

Hermann Lang - worked for Mercedes Benz throughout the war in technical roles. Also did some lecture tours with Alfred Neubauer. Hans Stuck did similar lecture work and film shows.

 

Quite a few British drivers - due to mechanical expertise or because they were company directors - would have been in 'reserved occupations', so would not have served, except perhaps in the Home Guard, the Observer Corps, ARP or Auxiliary Police.

[Vitesse2]

Robin Hanson - served in the RAF and won the DFC.

 

Johnny Lurani - fought with Italian anti-Fascist partisans. Had previously (1936) served in the Italian army.

 

St John Horsfall - specialist driver for the British Secret Service. Participant in 'Operation Mincemeat'.

 

Earl Howe - reservist recalled to Royal Naval service August 1939. Served throughout the war - although only on 'stone frigates' AFAIK.

 

Goldie Gardner - volunteered for a transport training role as a lieutenant (had been a Major in the Great War). Promoted to Lt-Colonel by the time he was demobbed.

[Alan Lewis]

Eddie Rickenbacker - a flying ace in WWI, but also served in the second war (in a civilian capacity?), ferrying VIPs about. Famously survived several days adrift in the Pacific after ditching.

 

APL

[Vitesse2]

Eddie Rickenbacker - a flying ace in WWI, but also served in the second war (in a civilian capacity?), ferrying VIPs about. Famously survived several days adrift in the Pacific after ditching.

 

APL

No, he didn't actually resume pilot duties, although he did aid the US war effort in a number of ways in a civilian role. There's a good summary on his Wikipedia page. More than several days adrift too - he and the crew of the B-17 he was travelling in spent 24 days in life rafts.

[D-Type]

Let's not overlook Duncan Hamilton - Fleet Air Arm pilot.  His war is recounted in his autobiography "Touch Wood" including a couple of choice incidents.

[Alan Lewis]

No, he didn't actually resume pilot duties, although he did aid the US war effort in a number of ways in a civilian role. There's a good summary on his Wikipedia page. More than several days adrift too - he and the crew of the B-17 he was travelling in spent 24 days in life rafts.

 

Ah, I stand corrected. The moral is: never rely on memory after you hit your fifties...

 

APL

[D28]

Let's not overlook Duncan Hamilton - Fleet Air Arm pilot.  His war is recounted in his autobiography "Touch Wood" including a couple of choice incidents.

I thought Hamilton as an obvious choice, but wasn't sure if the list was to include people starting racing after WW2 . If so, then Carroll Shelby  qualifies. He served as a flight instructor and test pilot and graduated with the rank of staff sergeant pilot.

Olivier Gendebien was a paratrooper. Probably quite a few others.

[D-Type]

I thought Hamilton as an obvious choice, but wasn't sure if the list was to include people starting racing after WW2 . If so, then Carroll Shelby  qualifies. He served as a flight instructor and test pilot and graduated with the rank of staff sergeant pilot.

Olivier Gendebien was a paratrooper. Probably quite a few others.

Looking at the initial post, I don't think any of the four named drivers raced prewar.  I agree, there must be far more who started racing postwar.

[Vitesse2]

Looking at the initial post, I don't think any of the four named drivers raced prewar.  I agree, there must be far more who started racing postwar.

I think you'll find Abecassis did ...

 

Unless you're thinking of a different one who didn't nearly go into the Crystal Palace lake in 1938!

[Allan Lupton]

Looking at the initial post, I don't think any of the four named drivers raced prewar.

George Abecassis is the one who had a pre-war racing career, but the others didn't mainly as they were too young (e.g. Brabham b 1926 so just over 13 when the war started).

 

Snap V2!!!

Edited by Allan Lupton, 25 August 2017 - 15:25.

[Tim Murray]

According to Barry Lake's opening post in the Tony Gaze thread Tony raced once at Brooklands in 1939.

[GazChed]

Not sure how widely known this is , but pre war Austin 7 racer and WW2 fighter pilot Gordon Brettell was captured after being shot down on a disastrous mission led by Tony Gaze .

Gaze took the blame for the failure of the mission but in reality different weather conditions to those forecast were the cause of the failure .

Brettell was lucky to survive the crash which followed his Spitfire losing a wing to anti-aircraft fire over Brest . After recovering from his injuries Brettell made at least two escape attempts , his capture after the last one , now known as the 'Great Escape' , led to his murder by the Gestapo .

Foe a fuller account , please see Aces , Airmen and the Biggin Hill Wing : a Collective Memoir 1941 - 1942 by Jon C Tan .

Edited by GazChed, 26 August 2017 - 15:59.

[Ray Bell]

There is actually a great similarity in those conditions to the ones which put paid to Sir Charles Kingsford-Smith's airline and in turn led to the risky venture which took his life...

The Southern Cloud, a tri-engined passenger plane, was equipped with a radio but they couldn't make it work. They flew out of Sydney understanding that there'd be no significant headwind but in fact flew for some hours into a very strong wind.

Descending through cloud when they reckoned they'd be near Melbourne and over relatively low country, they crashed into a mountain in the Snowy region and the 'plane was not found for about twenty years.

[GazChed]

That certainly does sound very similar to the experience of the Biggin Hill Wing over the English Channel and France on the 26th September 1942 . Heavy cloud instead of the patchy cloud forecast and a tailwind of 100 knots instead of a headwind of 35 knots helped seal the fate of 133 (Eagle) Squadron RAF .

Gordon Brettell was leading 133 Sqadron that day (Tony Gaze was in overall command of the wing consisting of three Spitfire Squadrons as well as leading his own 64 Sqadron) and unfortunately due to the weather conditions and losing radio contact with their base , the wing was not only unsure of their position but also becoming low on fuel . Taking a chance by diving through the cloud cover 133 Squadron came out above what they thought was an English coastal town .

Unfortunately the coastal town was Brest in France , a large U Boat port and very heavily defended . Quickly the German defenders recovered from the surprise of a Sqadron of Spitfires appearing in their midst and , along with some Focke Wulf 190s from a nearby airfield , decimated 133 Sqadron , shooting down eleven of the twelve aircraft with the sole survivor crash landing in England due to fuel starvation , seriously injuring the pilot .

Of the eleven pilots shot down that day four were killed , six including Brettell were captured while the eleventh evaded capture and was eventually repatriated . The mission was to cost Gaze his command of 64 Squadron as he was blamed for the debacle although it was hardly his fault .

Edited by GazChed, 26 August 2017 - 16:00.

[Vitesse2]

Another I've just recalled - Eddie Hertzberger. Escaped from occupied Netherlands via Spain and Switzerland; served in SOE's Dutch Section in London and was part of the team led by Leo Marks who eventually cracked the Abwehr's counter-espionage Englandspiel, which had crippled the Dutch Section's operations.

[RandomG]

Does anyone have any record of Joe Fry's involvement in the RAF? I've only been able to find one vague mention in Motorsport magazine. 

[Vitesse2]

Not RAF, according to the London Gazette. Army.

 

Cadet Joseph Gibson Fry (166490) promoted to 2nd Lieutenant as of 18 Jan 1941 having passed out from 141st OCTU (Gazette i/d 7 February 1941 Supplement: 35069 Page: 803)

 

Almost certainly served in the Royal Engineers as 141st OCTU seems to have been based at Shorncliffe and part of the Royal School of Military Engineering.

 

That, however, seems to be the extent of his military achievements, as once you've found somebody's service number you can usually trace any promotions. None found.

[RandomG]

Not RAF, according to the London Gazette. Army.

 

Cadet Joseph Gibson Fry (166490) promoted to 2nd Lieutenant as of 18 Jan 1941 having passed out from 141st OCTU (Gazette i/d 7 February 1941 Supplement: 35069 Page: 803)

 

Almost certainly served in the Royal Engineers as 141st OCTU seems to have been based at Shorncliffe and part of the Royal School of Military Engineering.

 

That, however, seems to be the extent of his military achievements, as once you've found somebody's service number you can usually trace any promotions. None found.

Thanks a lot!

[oldtransamdriver]

Google up  Colonel Maurice "MO" Carter  obit.

 

He was a fierce competitor on the race track - a leading independant racer in Trans-Am and IMSA.

He was a gentleman off the track.  In all the years I raced against him and knew him, not once did

he mention anything about his war service record.

 

Robert Barg

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Hi there, Bob.

 

Mo Carter?  Ah, yes...  Remember him well and he's well remembered.  If I'm not mistaken, Mo first surfaced in 1965-66 in a Corvair(and I don't think it was a Yenko Stinger; more probably, something he and the lads whipped up back in the shop in Hamilton)and yes, he was fierce.  A treat to watch him hurl the car about with great skill and abandon.

[Garsted]

A few OTTOMH:

 

Tony Rolt - captured at Calais 1940. Spent the war 'in the bag', escaped several times, ended up in Colditz, involved in the glider escape plot. Won two Military Crosses - for service in the defence of Calais and services rendered while a PoW.

 

Leslie Brooke - George Medal for gallantry during a rescue as a member of the ARP.

 

Bira and Chula - both served in the Home Guard. Bira later joined the RAFVR as a glider pilot/instructor. Wanted to be a pilot, but eyesight not good enough! Chula was prominent in the Free Thai movement in Britain.

 

Whitney Straight - served in the RAF, shot down, escaped, ended the war as an Air Commodore.

 

Reggie Tongue - RAF in Britain and West Africa, test pilot for Rolls Royce.

 

René Dreyfus - French army reservist on the Western Front, serving with the comedian Fernandel. Given leave of absence to race at Indianapolis 1940, discharged in America after the fall of France. Later served in the US army, in North Africa, Italy and France.

 

René Le Bègue - tank officer in the French army. As with Dreyfus, given leave of absence for Indy 1940. Returned to France, then back to the USA for Indy 1941. Remained in the US (hoping to race in 1942!) Later joined the Free French forces.

 

Harry Schell - US army.

 

Jean-Pierre Wimille - French Armée de l'Air. Demobbed 1940. Later worked with 'W Williams' and Robert Benoist in the French Resistance. Several other French racers were involved in Resistance activities - a few were killed (see Tim's link).

 

Arthur Dobson - RAF, but 'let go' for unspecified reasons (possibly drink!) Was running a company 'in radio' in 1944 according to Motor Sport.

 

Malcolm Campbell - trained motorcyclists for the British army. Was involved in the collection and analysis of beach sand samples in the preparations for the invasion of Europe.

 

John Cobb - served in the RAF. Has a very small 'bit part' in the film Target for Tonight, which featured real RAF personnel.

 

Raymond Sommer - French army, Demobbed 1940. Some reports say he was briefly in a PoW camp in Germany.

 

Louis Chiron - decamped to his home in Switzerland. May have been involved in Resistance work.

 

Pete dePaolo - USAAF. Posted to Switzerland and was responsible for the welfare of US aircrews who had force-landed there and were interned. Renewed acquaintance with Caracciola and was instrumental in the invitation for him to race at Indy in 1946.

 

Manfred von Brauchitsch - desk job in the Wehrmacht. Allegedly did some tank testing. Ended the war in a sanatorium.

 

Hermann Lang - worked for Mercedes Benz throughout the war in technical roles. Also did some lecture tours with Alfred Neubauer. Hans Stuck did similar lecture work and film shows.

 

Quite a few British drivers - due to mechanical expertise or because they were company directors - would have been in 'reserved occupations', so would not have served, except perhaps in the Home Guard, the Observer Corps, ARP or Auxiliary Police.

For those of you interested in the wartime adventures of Whitney Straight, the book Saturday at MI 9 by Airey Neave has a chapter entitled "The Return of Whitney Straight".  The book is about the escape lines for allied soldiers and airmen from occupied Europe.  After his successful escape from Colditz,  Airey Neave became the London based organiser of the escape lines.

 

Steve

[fivestar]

One obvious candidate must be Robert Cowell. Raced Altas pre war, served with the RAF, shot down by anti aircraft fire and imprisoned, after the war resumed racing activities and later became Roberta Cowell. here is an outline:

https://en.wikipedia.../Roberta_Cowell