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CRMIC engine concept


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#1 MatsNorway

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 09:47

A new rotating engine concept is being made in Norway these days. It has a lot of big and very serious companies and people involved. Most famous for the public is perhaps Martin Schanche. (Mr. Rallycross)

 

https://www.tu.no/ar...smotoren/404876

 

The concept is patented.

 

Would love to have Manolis to have a serious look at it and provide us with some insight. Which i assume you do for the insight on your own part.



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#2 gruntguru

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 06:18

Anything that works as a pump can be converted to work as an engine. This one is a vane pump (perhaps two vane pumps) arranged to become an Otto Cycle engine.



#3 Greg Locock

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 07:15

Using a motorsports personality to suck in the punters is a bit old school. As to the difficulty of designing the seals, ask NSU or Mazda.

#4 MatsNorway

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 16:36

Could be. In this project he is responsible for the assembly of the prototype. And yes some free PR certainly helps you get the job but Tronerud engineering is a serious company doing airplane and helicopter parts as a part of their business. They would not leave him with a expensive engine and freedom to chance the design if they did not trust the guy.

 

He have made all kinds of strange stuff. He developed the X-trac 4wd system himself for instance, as shown here in the little mk3 escort

He have tuned and raced cars since the 60s basically and has his own company selling some tuning parts.

He got more experience than most when it comes to strange inventions and pushing them to the limit, as he has been doing rallycross, hill climb (pikes peak) and Le Mans and did probably a lot of the work on his cars himself. I do not think Schanche would have been nearly as competitive without his expertise in technical matters.

 

He has in the past also made his own helicopter. ofc. Schanche being Schanche crashed that one too. (Pilot error, not mechanical i believe)



#5 Myrvold

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 20:43

and did probably a lot of the work on his cars himself. I do not think Schanche would have been nearly as competitive without his expertise in technical matters.


What's often being said is that Schanche was never the best driver in any of his RX-seasons. But he was the best car-constructor of them all.
The transmission-system he and X-Trac worked on together was used by F1-teams up until the mid-90's, he also had adjustable torque and adjustable 4WD on his mk3 Escort, which again, was developed from an idea he had.

#6 manolis

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 10:43

Hello Mats Norway.

 

You write:

“Would love to have Manolis to have a serious look at it and provide us with some insight. Which i assume you do for the insight on your own part.”

 

 

They should explain in their drawings how they seal the passageways shown by the red arrows:

 

Mats_Norway_Rotary.png

 

They have another,way more serious issue to solve, as the following slides from their International Patent Application show:

 

Mats_Norway_Rotary1.png

 

Mats_Norway_Rotary2.png

 

 

Unless I got it wrong (I doubt), the rotating peripheral seals pass over other, stationary seals. . .

 

 

To pass the compressed air-fuel mixture from the “intake” rotor to the “exhaust” rotor, is a big challenge (ask Scuderi).

 

To have an exhaust chamber dealing continuously with “red hot” gas, is a bigger challenge.

 

 

 

 

For comparison, here is another solution:

 

PatRE.gif

 

PatRE_2.gif

 

More at http://www.pattakon....takonRotary.htm

 

The above PatRE rotary engine is a four-stroke engine, has four combustions per shaft rotation, has top power to weight ratio, has extreme intake port and exhaust port areas for a given capacity per chamber.

 

The PatRE needs not to pass the compressed gas to another chamber; everything happen and complete in the same chamber (there are four).

 

The PatRE treats its seals gently, way more gently than the Wankel rotary.

 

 

 

Quote from http://www.pattakon....takonKeyAdv.htm :

 

The Wankel rotary engine features the freest breathing, being rid of camshafts, valves, springs etc. The PatRE rotary engine features as free breathing as the Wankel rotary engine, being also rid of camshafts, valves, springs etc. 

The attenuated combustion chamber and the poor sealing have been, and still are, Wankel's Achilles' heel, causing way lower thermal efficiency than conventional. This rotary engine (PatRE) has not the sealing problems of the Wankel rotary: its "piston rings" - more than one if desirable - keep "surface contact" with the toroidal "cylinder", while Wankel's rotor apex seals - inevitably one only per rotor apex - keep poor "line contact" with the epitrochoid. It is also the shape of the combustion chamber of the PatRE rotary engine: it is as compact as the combustion chamber of the conventional reciprocating engine. The good sealing, the compact combustion chamber and the low friction enable comparable to the conventional, if not better, thermal efficiency. 

The two-rotor Wankel rotary engine completes two combustions per power shaft rotation, while the PatRE rotary engine completes four combustions per power shaft rotation (one per chamber). 


The Wankel rotary engine needs a pair of gear wheels to synchronize the motion of the rotor with the power shaft, it also needs counterbalancing weights on the power shaft. The PatRE rotary engine needs neither gear wheels nor counterbalancing webs. 


For equal "expansion cycle" (or power stroke) duration (i.e. time in seconds), the power shaft of the Wankel rotates three times faster, while the crankshaft of the conventional rotates two times faster than the power shaft of the PatRE rotary engine. 
This built-in revs reduction is beneficial in many applications. For instance when a propeller of an airplane is driven directly by the power shaft. 

An example: 
When an electric generator is driven at 3000 rpm directly by the power shaft of the Wankel, the time for the "expansion cycle" of a chamber of the Wankel engine is 0.015 seconds (too long, especially when combined with the poor sealing of the Wankel and the worst surface to volume ratio of the chamber during combustion). When the same electric generator is driven at 3000 rpm by the power shaft of this toroidal rotary engine, the time for the "expansion cycle" of a chamber is only 0.005 seconds, i.e. 3 times shorter than in the case of Wankel. 

 

 

By the way,please take alook at the PatEf thread started today.

 

Thanks

Manolis Pattakos
 



#7 MatsNorway

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 17:22

Hello Mats Norway.

 

You write:

“Would love to have Manolis to have a serious look at it and provide us with some insight. Which i assume you do for the insight on your own part.”

 

 

They should explain in their drawings how they seal the passageways shown by the red arrows:

 

Mats_Norway_Rotary.png

 

The seals are rotating without any off center device trowing them around unlike a wankel. That is probably a benefit for this design. And yes, sealing at the red arrows will be a possible leak.


 

They have another,way more serious issue to solve, as the following slides from their International Patent Application show:

 

Mats_Norway_Rotary1.png

I can not see that seal on the other drawing. Is it towards the walls?

Mats_Norway_Rotary2.png

 

 


 


Edited by MatsNorway, 06 September 2017 - 17:24.


#8 manolis

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 02:45

Hello Mats Norway

 

In the Fig 8d, they are shown all the three seals.

The two on the rotating member / arm are black. The third, which is “stationary”, is hatched (hatched lines leaning to the left; under this seal it is shown a “sping”).

 

The peripheral speed of the moving springs is too high, if not extreme, at normal revs.

At the “bottom” of the periphery of the casing there is a “road bump” (the third seal) to jump over.

 

 

 

Quote from another forum:

 

Talking about the Wankel, it is worth mentioning one of the worst problems the engineers of NSU and Mazda experienced several decades ago:

 

speed_bump.jpg

 

Confused? 
No it is not the speed bumps on the roads.

It is the “speed bump” on the apex real “road”, i.e. on the casing:

 

PatWankel_iGR_10.gif 

 

Wankel_Apex_Seal_Acceleration.gif

 

Look at the “speed bump” at lower and top side of the casing and at the “reverse” centrifugal force the apex seal experiences each time it passes from the area between the two spark plugs (or from the anti-diametrically from the spark plugs area).

Did you ever pass over a “speed bump” with, say, 50mph (80Km/h)?
Did the car take off the road?

The Wankel RX-8 requires strong springs under the apex seals, otherwise each apex seal will take off the epitrochoid twice per revolution around the casing.

 

End of Quote

 

 

Compare the smooth “bump” on the ”road” whereon the apex seals of the Wankel rotary move (at about 1/3 of the speed of the seals of the rotary of the present thread) with the “bump” shown in Fig 8d.

 

 

Thanks

Manolis Pattakos



#9 MatsNorway

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:23

Give it a cam and lift it down when the other seal is making a pass.



#10 gruntguru

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 02:39

Desmodromic seals Mats?



#11 MatsNorway

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Posted 08 September 2017 - 22:30

Of course! :)