105 replies to this topic

[Hati]

Electricity has replaced gas. in lawnmowers, in racing we need something to burn in engines for foreseeable future. But does it need to be gasoline? I would change current gasoline-hybrid engines to ones that use only some sort of alternate fuel in heartbeat but which fuel gives enough power without too much weight or being too dangerous. There has been ethanol in use in USA but you need it more to achieve same amount of power than with gasoline which may make cars too heavy. I think that they have used also methanol but it was too dangerous because it burnt with invisible flame. Hydrogen has plenty of power but is the risk of explosion too high?

 

What do you think?

[string158]

I would like to see a series which had open engine regs which encouraged alternative fuel. I think it would be better done as an experimental category within WEC rather than F1 tho

[CPR]

Personally, I don't think there is a good genuine mass market alternative fuel to gasoline.

 

I think pressurised gas based solutions would be bad for motor racing due to the risks.

 

For any sustainable liquid fuel, anything bio-based would consume too much crop land to be genuinely mass market and if a truly commercial method is found to split water into hydrogen and oxygen (from sunlight) is developed then it would probably be more efficient to burn it on-site and convert it to electricity.

 

So I would say it's either electrons or accept that fact that fuel based motor racing is like horse-racing and should be optimised for fan-enjoyment as a sport rather than consumer relevance.

[amedeofelix]

It could maybe take up something other than the internal combustion engine at some point, but as long as that is in place I see no reason to change the fuel for it.

[SenorSjon]

Anti-matter reaction chamber? The engine could be tiny, but a halo would be useless when the engine explodes.

 

The green addendums to biofuel are usually depriving poor countries from food and/or rainforest, so that is not a good large scale alternative.

[ArrowsLivery]

Whats wrong with Hybrid?

[7MGTEsup]

Whats wrong with Hybrid?

 

Too much weight? You have to carry around 2 power sources and 2 motors.

[Hati]

Personally, I don't think there is a good genuine mass market alternative fuel to gasoline.

 

For that I would want to make somewhat blunt comment: Who cares about mass market, we are talking about racing.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

I have almost zero information about alternative fuel possibilities but it looks like the future is electric and you can see big manufacturers are entering FormulaE, so it shows alternative fuel is not on manufacturers radar.

[Hati]

Whats wrong with Hybrid?

 

Overcomplicated and overexpensive piece of crap where computer dictates how much power it produces instead of driver. If gasoline engine is not mediasexy enough anymore we can keep it with minimal modifications by altering the fuel and saying to stupid masses or bosses that it's research while goal is in fact keeping engine simple, powerful and cheap(ish).

[Hati]

 so it shows alternative fuel is not on manufacturers radar.

 

And since manufacturers are a big part of the problem we could get in best case scenario two birds with one stone.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

And since manufacturers are a big part of the problem we could get in best case scenario two birds with one stone.

Like it or not, manufacturers play a major role in Formula1, just look at FIA's efforts to make sure Honda remain in Formula1.

Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 07 September 2017 - 14:47.

[Szoelloe]

Absolutely. Hydrogen.

[MatsNorway]

Vote needs a more open regs option. Let them choose. Any fuel is ok as long as the calories total is the same in energy flow and in the fuel tank.

 

Given the high revs it could be some fuel that suits better than petrol. Say Methanol

Edited by MatsNorway, 07 September 2017 - 15:01.

[highdownforce]

Better question: What is faster?

[ArrowsLivery]

Too much weight? You have to carry around 2 power sources and 2 motors.

If they had to carry some kind of alternative fuel (which are usually less energy dense than gasoline) or pressurized fuel tank the weight would need to go up as well.

[Vielleicht]

I enjoy Formula E enough to be convinced racing doesn't need to burn fuel to be good.

 

As for what Formula One should do, who knows. Why not use ethanol? Works for IndyCar and can at least claim a level of green thinking to it.

 

At the end of the day, with society moving towards sustainability, I personally would lose interest in the technology side at least of pure petrol Formula One. One of the big draws has been cutting the edge propulsion developments - if that means Hybrid/Electric/Bio/Fuelcells/Flowcells then I'm all for Formula One using that.

[Hati]

Absolutely. Hydrogen.

 

Hydrogen has most energy, I believe, but can equivalent amount of hydrogen compared to 150kg of gasoline be stored safely in a race car without ridiculously heavy storage vessel? If answer is yes I want hydrogen engines.

[chunder27]

Hydrogen is impossible, unless you could find a way to guarantee no explosions from the pressurised tank.

 

You simply could never have a series where a car could crash and literally blow up, there can be no risk at all of that for it to be a goer

 

Fe for me is a test, it is not racing, I see the need for it for various reasons, but it will never capture the imagination of anyone who has witnessed petroleum based racing. Never.

[Clatter]

I enjoy Formula E enough to be convinced racing doesn't need to burn fuel to be good.

 

As for what Formula One should do, who knows. Why not use ethanol? Works for IndyCar and can at least claim a level of green thinking to it.

 

At the end of the day, with society moving towards sustainability, I personally would lose interest in the technology side at least of pure petrol Formula One. One of the big draws has been cutting the edge propulsion developments - if that means Hybrid/Electric/Bio/Fuelcells/Flowcells then I'm all for Formula One using that.

 

Formula E does burn fuel, it's just not at point of use.

[Vielleicht]

Formula E does burn fuel, it's just not at point of use.

Well yes, I am fully aware of their glycerine generators which they currently use (which are cleaner than petrol or diesel anyway) but the capability and intent to charge them from renewable combustion-less sources is actually possible, unlike a vehicle that actually burns fuel at the point of use.

[Vielleicht]

FE for me is a test, it is not racing, I see the need for it for various reasons, but it will never capture the imagination of anyone who has witnessed petroleum based racing. Never.

I have witnessed petroleum based racing my entire life yet FE has still indeed captured my imagination   do I need to see a psychologist?

[Tsarwash]

Hydro electric !

[davidlan]

They should switch to warp drives powered with dilithium crystals, some weird

guy called Scotty knows all about them.

 

Dave

[F1matt]

Jaguar have announced today that they will stop making petrol and diesel cars by 2020 unless they have some form of hybrid incorporated into it, they are pinning alot on their new all electric car which comes out next year, they aren't the first manufacturer to announce this and they wont be the last, we have to accept that we are in the final years of petrol and diesel cars and for the pinnacle of motorsport to walk away from this would be fatal. 

[AustinF1]

I voted no, but what I mean is that I'd prefer gasoline power with no hybrid component. What the ICE burns really doesn't matter that much to me...

[AustinF1]

Jaguar have announced today that they will stop making petrol and diesel cars by 2020 unless they have some form of hybrid incorporated into it, they are pinning alot on their new all electric car which comes out next year, they aren't the first manufacturer to announce this and they wont be the last, we have to accept that we are in the final years of petrol and diesel cars and for the pinnacle of motorsport to walk away from this would be fatal. 

Don't you mean "final years of petrol and diesel cars without a hybrid component"?

Edited by AustinF1, 07 September 2017 - 16:15.

[ArrowsLivery]

Jaguar have announced today that they will stop making petrol and diesel cars by 2020 unless they have some form of hybrid incorporated into it, they are pinning alot on their new all electric car which comes out next year, they aren't the first manufacturer to announce this and they wont be the last, we have to accept that we are in the final years of petrol and diesel cars and for the pinnacle of motorsport to walk away from this would be fatal.

Maybe in Europe, but the rest of the world will still burn petrol for the foreseeable future!

[AustinF1]

Formula E does burn fuel, it's just not at point of use.

It's amazing how many otherwise intelligent people cannot grasp this elemental concept, as if the electricity to charge these cars comes from the 'electricity fairies' or something. (Not directed at anyone here)

[RedBaron]

we have to accept that we are in the final years of petrol and diesel cars and for the pinnacle of motorsport to walk away from this would be fatal. 

 

When the world goes electric, Formula 1 should definitely stay gasoline. It would be the monster series that entertains loudly in a silent green world.

 

I don't care that 20 cars in Formula 1 are powered by fossil fuels. I care about the 1 billion cars on our roads and if they are run on clean energy.

[ArrowsLivery]

It's amazing how many otherwise intelligent people cannot grasp this elemental concept, as if the electricity to charge these cars comes from the 'electricity fairies' or something. (Not directed at anyone here)

It COULD come from wind or solar power. Besides, power stations are more efficient than road car engines. There is no doubt that electric cars are "greener" the problem is that they are not economical at this point.

[AustinF1]

It COULD come from wind or solar power. Besides, power stations are more efficient than road car engines. There is no doubt that electric cars are "greener" the problem is that they are not economical at this point.

It could, but it doesn't for the most part, and won't for some time.

[Atreiu]

Electricity has replaced gas. in lawnmowers, in racing we need something to burn in engines for foreseeable future. But does it need to be gasoline? I would change current gasoline-hybrid engines to ones that use only some sort of alternate fuel in heartbeat but which fuel gives enough power without too much weight or being too dangerous. There has been ethanol in use in USA but you need it more to achieve same amount of power than with gasoline which may make cars too heavy. I think that they have used also methanol but it was too dangerous because it burnt with invisible flame. Hydrogen has plenty of power but is the risk of explosion too high?

 

What do you think?

 

What are the current viable options?

Edited by Atreiu, 07 September 2017 - 16:38.

[Alexis*27]

No.

[Ickx]

Why hybrid or alternative fuel? I say both. 

 

Gas is stupid. I go for an alcohol. Does not matter much which one but I prefer to drink ethanol so why not methanol in the tank. 

[ViMaMo]

More Ethanol in the fuel. F1 needs to move to man made fuels. 

[Ickx]

Hydrogen has most energy, I believe, but can equivalent amount of hydrogen compared to 150kg of gasoline be stored safely in a race car without ridiculously heavy storage vessel? If answer is yes I want hydrogen engines.

 

No. Hydrogen has low energy density. If you store hydrogen atoms in for example methanol you get much more energy. Hydrogen will only create a much larger explosion if you ignite it all on the same time. 

[scheivlak]

Piss. If you make F1 a pissing contest the world will be saved.

[warp]

I would like to see a series which had open engine regs which encouraged alternative fuel. I think it would be better done as an experimental category within WEC rather than F1 tho

 

Genuine question. Isn't WEC already sort of open? You can select which type of PU you want to use.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the top teams would still run Hybrid PU's. But an open series would open the door for some smaller teams to be competitive with cheaper, less complicated IC or KERS units.

 

Agreed with others that for a sport that moves such a circus around the planet, using gasoline, timber or coal to fuel 20-25 cars makes a ridiculous little difference but big manufacturers want to sell the idea of technology they can trick down (even if they don't) to the market. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday. 

 

The only chance to return to "good ole gasoline high revs racing, wires to the throttle, stick to the floor" is to create a spec series. But that won't be Formula 1. 

[Kalmake]

Genuine question. Isn't WEC already sort of open? You can select which type of PU you want to use.

Not really. If you are a factory entry, you have to go hybrid class. They might be changing that in hopes of getting anyone to join LMP1.

[l12mcg]

Too much weight? You have to carry around 2 power sources and 2 motors.

I'm willing to bet if they had to make the old V8s last for 5 races you'd end up with a pretty heavy beast as well. Certainly more than they did weigh. Also remember those batteries aren't ballast... They produce power.

So the old engines had a minimum weight of, 95 kg and produced around 750 HP. The current engines weigh about 160 kg including battery and produce around 1000 HP. Total car weight is a better comparison though we are talking 642 kg (2013) vs 702 kg (2016 this years cars are significantly different). So that's a 60 kg increase (old cars still had batteries), or about 10% more weight. The cars however now have approximately 33% more power. So in terms of power:weight the new units win.

Then on top of that we have thermal efficiency. So for the new power units that is around 47% the V8/10s were 29%.

No matter how you spin it the hybrid is just better. I know ever seen people on this forum use base engine weight comparisons to say they are less efficient, that is however not correct because we put them in cars...

Even if we go back to the 2008 weight of 605 kg, it is still only a 16% increase in weight vs 2016. For 33% more power and a 62% increase in thermal efficiency. Ohh and even this years cars at 728 kg? 20%, that's right the hybrids produce more bhp/tonne in today's cars than the V8s in 2008 in those lighter cars. Ohh and they only lasted 2 races, they'd probably weigh 10% more to last 5, so the hybrids win by even more.

Ok they don't sound exciting but I'd hate to break it to anyone, if you asked an engineer to design you an engine tomorrow they'd make it hybrid.

They would not make you a N/A non-hybrid engine unless you gave them a good reason.

That's why car companies are moving towards them, yes they get to market the greenness but you know what? Weight for weight they are better, for the same power you can have less weight and more fuel efficiency or for the same weight you can have better fuel efficiency and more power.

The move backward is because they took too big a step in one go and people didn't follow, they also did a very bad job of explaining just how amazing these things are. We should have done V8 KERS to V6 turbo KERS to V6 full hybrid over a 5 year period. Adding various components as we went.

[kumo7]

Personally I believe new F1 car should fly.

 

I mean, literally to fly.

 

It should be propelled by the tire and on straight the aero should lift the car to fly, touch it down on the corners.

[RacingGreen]

I fail to see the advantage of moving towards ethanol, natural gas or any similar fuel at the moment. Using hybrid systems to get the maximum return for fuel burnt seems a more appropriate way to go as a means of phasing out carbon fuels altogether and moving towards either an electric racing or a hydrogen fuel cell technology post the 2040 ban.

[l12mcg]

I fail to see the advantage of moving towards ethanol, natural gas or any similar fuel at the moment. Using hybrid systems to get the maximum return for fuel burnt seems a more appropriate way to go as a means of phasing out carbon fuels altogether and moving towards either an electric racing or a hydrogen fuel cell technology post the 2040 ban.

The idea of using hydrogen technology in a race car has huge issues. Unless you use solid state hydrogen storage you're basically driving a bomb. Compressed hydrogen has no place in an F1 and I'd also say long term probably no place on the road. The chances of others getting killed by your mistake is too high. Solid state hydrogen storage is currently very inefficient and as far as I know purely confined to research labs.

Ships and planes are the realistic places where neat hydrogen fuel could be used. Because they are generally far away from population or the crash is already so bad the explosion won't make it worse.

I'm afraid F1 is going electric or synthetically produced hydrocarbons or alternatives.

Realistically F1 does not have to go electric in the near future, even after all hydrocarbon fuelled cars are banned from roads we will still have to extract hundreds of millions of tonnes of oil a year to get chemicals we need for society to function. There are very few alternatives.

If all of the areas around motorsport switch to greener tech the switch for racing can be later. However we do need to stick with hybrids and eventually get into a full renewable place simply because the world won't accept it, it is not like horse racing. Horses don't actively harm the planet. It is obvious really that people won't be interested in hydrocarbon powered motorsport in 50 years.

That being said, people have been racing for as long as long as humans have existed. We will continue to do so, trying to fight against these changes is simply misguided. We will still have cars racing on tracks in 50 years, some will still be powered by oil. The most popular however probably won't be.

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

...

So in terms of power:weight the new units win.

...
Even if we go back to the 2008 weight of 605 kg, it is still only a 16% increase in weight vs 2016. For 33% more power and a 62% increase in thermal efficiency. Ohh and even this years cars at 728 kg? 20%, that's right the hybrids produce more bhp/tonne in today's cars than the V8s in 2008 in those lighter cars.

...

 

The fastest cars around race tracks with corners are actually these cars, you got it absolutely right!

 

[Hati]

Better question: What is faster?

 

Probably the one that has most energy/kg. If I interpreted that chart below next quote right we would get more power with 100kg of natural gas than with 100kg of gasoline. And even more power with hydrogen compressed to 700 bar but that probably can't be implemented safely while, if I understand it right, natural gas requires approximately same amount of space and pressure as gasoline.
 

No. Hydrogen has low energy density. If you store hydrogen atoms in for example methanol you get much more energy. Hydrogen will only create a much larger explosion if you ignite it all on the same time.

I don't know how accurate this chart is but according to it one kg of hydrogen (with very high pressure) has about three times more energy than gasoline,
https://en.wikipedia.../Energy_density

It seems that with 250 bar (which is still ridiculously high) 1kg of hydrogen could generate more power than 1kg of gasoline but can it be stored safely in a racing car? I have doubts about that. But mixing sounds interesting, which fuels we could mix so that product has more energy than gasoline but isn't too dangerous in accidents?

 

What are the current viable options?

 

Choices that I added are currently in use either with road or racing cars. (Diesel is also in use but since there are movements that want to kill in before gasoline and I think that here are people who will have heart attack if F1 turns to diesel I left it out.)

[BlackCat]

keep gasoline and forget hybrids - just to keep racing costs down.

[Ickx]

I don't know how accurate this chart is but according to it one kg of hydrogen (with very high pressure) has about three times more energy than gasoline,

https://en.wikipedia.../Energy_density

It seems that with 250 bar (which is still ridiculously high) 1kg of hydrogen could generate more power than 1kg of gasoline but can it be stored safely in a racing car? I have doubts about that. But mixing sounds interesting, which fuels we could mix so that product has more energy than gasoline but isn't too dangerous in accidents?

 

 

You are right and I'm sloppy, In terms of weight you are right but the hydrogen takes up a lot more volume compared to alcohols or gasoline. Not to mention the pressure vessel required to store the compressed gas. 

[Sash1]

BMW announced today that it wants 12 electric models by 2025. No hybrids. Fuel or electric. No inbetweens.

Everyone is moving away from Diesels and cities in Europe are starting to ban diesel and old fuel cars. Fuel and hybrid is a dead end.

 

F1 should remain a fuel powered series and ditch the useless idea of hybrid. Nobody wants hybrids.

For full electric we have Formula E.

[Turtle]

BMW announced today that it wants 12 electric models by 2025. No hybrids. Fuel or electric. No inbetweens.

Everyone is moving away from Diesels and cities in Europe are starting to ban diesel and old fuel cars. Fuel and hybrid is a dead end.

 

F1 should remain a fuel powered series and ditch the useless idea of hybrid. Nobody wants hybrids.

For full electric we have Formula E.

 

Absolutely correct. F1 needs to worry about entertaining, competitive and cheaper racing, not trying to save the world. Everything other than electric is a waste of time now, Formula E has that part cornered and F1 should just worry about getting 24 affordable cars on the grid, where more than 2 of them have a chance of winning or being challenged every weekend. If the costs are managed, the sport doesn't have to worry about manufacturers pulling out. Then when electric racing becomes more mature and viable, F1 will probably have to adopt that anyway or die. It may not even exist in 30 years time. Just make the sport fun while it lasts, PLEASE!