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Last 500cc 4-stroke GP winner


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#1 Graham Clayton

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:07

I was reading about the infamous 1979 Honda NR500cc Grand Prix bike, which was a four-stroke. The 500cc World Championship had been dominated by two-strokes since the early 1970's, so when was the last occasion that a four-stroke bike won a 500cc World Championship Grand Prix?



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#2 chunder27

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:35

Ago won a race in about 74 or 75 on a 4 stroke MV?  Nurburgring I think? (yes the long one)  Maybe in 75 his last title year when he rode a 2 stroke Yam?

 

The NR was a disaster, but a fabulously complex and technological thing to behold.

 

It was basically a V8 with oval pistons, could in theory rev to 20k and in its final stages developed 130hp.

 

Spencer once got it to 4th at Silverstone (yes the old one) until it blew up!

And the story I loved is that someone, somewhere nicked a set of unobtanium magnesium carbs for it from the pits once, and they were never seen again!!!

 

Wonder where they are now



#3 Paul Collins

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:16

There was a rumour at the time that Honda secretly bored the NR out to something like 680cc in the end just to try and get it competitive with a privateer RG500, that might have been the race in which Spencer got it up to 4th.

#4 chunder27

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:42

I am fairly sure Honda, back then would not have done something like that.  That is a massive cc increase and they were fairly close in terms of power anyway.  It was torque and delivery that they needed.

 

Plus as usual they reinvented the wheel, the first bike used a monocoque chassis with rads on the side of the bodywork lol!  Then they got a British guy to build a frame after lobbying by Mick Grant I think!!

 

I think it won races in Japan, but never looked like winning a GP.

 

Your story could have legs though as the engine design basically went on to be the NR750 did it not?  But I simply cant imagine Soichiro ever sanctioning that in the early 80's.



#5 djr900

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:39

would agree with chunder27 - early 1970s MV must be the last 4 stroke win .

as for the NR500 , I think somebody should have told Ron Dennis about that bike before he signed up for the current Honda deal at Mclaren !

all those people who say "Honda always gets it right in the end"  ,    they  need to google - "NR500"



#6 tonyed

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 11:15

I would disagree that the NR500 was a disaster - it was never that good. It was a catastrophe. 

 

Honda had the idea that it was good to have their design engineers rotate around their projects so new thinking was always on the agenda.

 

Unfortunately the NR500 was designed by the team that had previously been working on static engines for the building trade which is why the frame looked like a cement mixer.

 

The idea of the oval pistons was good and had been used for many years in the British motorcycle industry albeit unintentionally (due to totally knackered machinery).

 

I was at Silverstone when Granty fell off on the first corner and I think it was Zooming Taxi who latest longest in the race although he was well last.

 

Enough has been said in the past about the NR500 which had about the same performance as a good TZ350, it should now be laid to rest.  :wave:


Edited by tonyed, 13 September 2017 - 11:15.


#7 Paul Collins

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 11:22

I am fairly sure Honda, back then would not have done something like that


Well I guess we'll never know, but the rumour came from a very good source within the GP paddocks and in a technical role in those days, allegedly the brief was to start the race and see how well it performed and then pull out, but I think the rider for the 'experiment' might have been Katayama.

Edited by Paul Collins, 13 September 2017 - 11:24.


#8 kevins

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:17

Ago won the German GP in '76, see https://en.wikipedia...ycle_Grand_Prix (I verified on the motogp site)

 

Accorging to wiki, he used the MV for part of that season and an RG500 for the rest. Was the MV a works ride - how come MV allowed him to do that?

 

The NR500 was a fantastic attempt to push against the tide. But, was'nt it called the Never Ready by the press:) ?


Edited by kevins, 13 September 2017 - 12:19.


#9 Russell Burrows

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:26

Ago won the German GP in '76, see https://en.wikipedia...ycle_Grand_Prix (I verified on the motogp site)

 

Accorging to wiki, he used the MV for part of that season and an RG500 for the rest. Was the MV a works ride - how come MV allowed him to do that?

 

The NR500 was a fantastic attempt to push against the tide. But, was'nt it called the Never Ready by the press:) ?

Exactly, no attempts at innovation equals, well, no innovation.  Ago re-signed for MV in 76, didn't he ?  Although I do recall him on a Suzuki then too. 



#10 chunder27

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 14:58

I would imagine if you had won 12 or so championships for MV, you could pretty much ask them to build you a bike!

 

Anyway, Ago back then probably had a few laying around!!!  It was a 4 I think, not a triple.

 

If Honda had built the thing in 73 or so, it might have been OK, maybe. But they really were pushing the boundaries.

 

They built several crap bikes did HRC. The original V4 500 NSR had the tank under the engine and the exhausts over it, won races fair enough, but was scrapped. And I am convinced without Spencer, the NS500 triple would not have won as much as it did.

 

The RC45 took years to get right in Superbikes, and was basically an RVF Suzuka bike when it did, made of unobtanium and one version was actually more powerful than the 500 when they bought in unleaded fuel to the 500's!!

 

They built a disc valve side radiator NSR250 in something like 99, that was a disaster. Trying to copy Aprilia. Quick again, think Kato won in Suzuka on it as a wild card.

 

And who can forget the fuel injected 500 NSR, so good that Beattie and Doohan said we are quitting if you make us ride it again!



#11 Paul Collins

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 17:23

Ago won the German GP in '76, see https://en.wikipedia...ycle_Grand_Prix (I verified on the motogp site)
 
Accorging to wiki, he used the MV for part of that season and an RG500 for the rest. Was the MV a works ride - how come MV allowed him to do that?
 
The NR500 was a fantastic attempt to push against the tide. But, was'nt it called the Never Ready by the press:) ?


I seem to remember Ago's RG and MV both being in Marlboro colours that year, so possibly his own team and able to pick his bikes.

#12 Paul Collins

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 17:27

I would imagine if you had won 12 or so championships for MV, you could pretty much ask them to build you a bike!
 
Anyway, Ago back then probably had a few laying around!!!  It was a 4 I think, not a triple.
 
If Honda had built the thing in 73 or so, it might have been OK, maybe. But they really were pushing the boundaries.
 
They built several crap bikes did HRC. The original V4 500 NSR had the tank under the engine and the exhausts over it, won races fair enough, but was scrapped. And I am convinced without Spencer, the NS500 triple would not have won as much as it did.
 
The RC45 took years to get right in Superbikes, and was basically an RVF Suzuka bike when it did, made of unobtanium and one version was actually more powerful than the 500 when they bought in unleaded fuel to the 500's!!
 
They built a disc valve side radiator NSR250 in something like 99, that was a disaster. Trying to copy Aprilia. Quick again, think Kato won in Suzuka on it as a wild card.
 
And who can forget the fuel injected 500 NSR, so good that Beattie and Doohan said we are quitting if you make us ride it again!


Didn't Mamola describe the under-tanked NSR as handling "like a rock on the end of a stick"?

This years Fireblade hasn't exactly impressed its jockeys either, with two painful incidents!! but they seem to be getting it sorted now, at least at BSB level.

#13 Herr Wankel

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 18:08

Didn't Grunty say to the marshall who came running to the flaming NR as it lay on its side at Silverstone; 'Let the 'stard burn !' ?

#14 Bob Riebe

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 20:01

The NR500 had some unfinished business though – on the track, and in R&D. After the Suzuka win, Honda’s new discovery Spencer had been given the bike for an international race at Laguna Seca, where he would meet the GP 500s of Mamola and Roberts. Crucially the race began with engines running, eliminating the continuing bugbear of the push start. Spencer won his heat from Roberts, and was leading the final when the engine expired.



#15 tonyed

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 04:59

I think it was ironic that the extremely complex NR500 was replaced by something as simple as the RS500 (NS500) two stroke triple.

 

Never a Honda fan but what a lovely machine.  There is one on the market now.

 

The NSR500 with the tank underneath was described as handling like a pendulum but as already reported here Randys' comment was the best. Much of Hondas' problems came because of their policy of rotating the design staff. All very commendable and I am sure there was some innovation but like their and Yamahas' current policy of spending all season sorting out the latest iteration of their MotoGP bikes having handed the fully sorted last seasons weapons to the satellite teams seems somewhat fraught with self made problems. Still, I suppose, that's how progress is made  (eventually). :up:   



#16 chunder27

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 07:44

Thing is, Spencer and Mamola both won GP's on the thing!

 

And for me the NS500 was only a champ because of Spencer, no-one else did much on one. But it provided the grid with a bike for nearly 10 years!!!!

 

People forget that Spencer was doing at the time, like what Marquez is doing now, he revolutionised riding and took it to a whole new level.

 

I think HRC also brought in things like carbon wheels (one broke on Fred), carbon pegs, fork tubes?  brake levers?  on the first NSR.

 

I was looking at the first NR last night.  Rads on the side, away from the airflow.  Springs independent of the front forks. Probably anti dive ( a big fad at the time), and didn't it use tiny wheels compared to the norm?

 

I love the thing, and admire Honda tremendously for doing it, this was their first time back after their withdrawal. And to come back with such an insane bike for me was fabulous, if flawed!!



#17 GTPRacing

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 16:15

Regarding the NR 500, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Honda had originally designed the engine as a V8, but the FIM then decided to restrict the number of cylinders to four. Thus the oval piston concept, as they turned 8 cylinders into 4 to meet the rule change. Honda figured adding more cylinders and more revs would have the same effect as they did with the six.