168 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

Inspired by what seems to be an upcoming feature in F1 Racing magazine, fans are being asked to decide:
 

"Which Ferrari grand prix winner is the greatest of all-time?"
 
 

Anthony Rowlinson‏ @Rowlinson_F1  12h12 hours ago

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Anthony Rowlinson Retweeted Anthony Rowlinson

Help @F1Racing_mag choose the greatest @ScuderiaFerrari driver

Anthony Rowlinson‏@Rowlinson_F1
p://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/3859543/Greatest-Ferrari-driver-of-all-time …

 
There are too many candidates to replicate the poll here but maybe that's for the best? It means we can discuss it and make cases for drivers without making it clear who is likely to win the F1 Racing mag poll.  For ease of reference, all the Ferrari race winners from the poll are listed below:

 

• Michael Schumacher
• Niki Lauda
• Alberto Ascari
• Felipe Massa
• Fernando Alonso
• Rubens Barrichello
• Kimi Räikkönen
• Sebastian Vettel
• Jacky Ickx
• Gilles Villeneuve
• Carlos Reutemann
• Alain Prost
• Gerhard Berger
• John Surtees
• Clay Regazzoni
• Eddie Irvine
• Juan Manuel Fangio
• Mike Hawthorn
• Peter Collins
• Phil Hill
• Jody Scheckter
• René Arnoux
• Michele Alboreto
• Nigel Mansell
• José Froilán González
• Tony Brooks
• Wolfgang von Trips
• Didier Pironi
• Patrick Tambay
• Piero Taruffi
• Nino Farina
• Maurice Trintignant
• Luigi Musso
• Giancarlo Baghetti
• Lorenzo Bandini
• Ludovico Scarfiotti
• Mario Andretti
• Jean Alesi

 

So it's over to you. Who would you vote for and why? 

 

 

[molpid]

SCHUMACHER all the way

[RedBaron]

Schumacher. Why? Schumacher.

[Nonesuch]

And here's now many races they won; this isn't even close.

 

72 - Michael Schumacher
15 - Lauda
13 - Ascari
11 - Massa, Alonso
9 - Barrichello, Räikkönen
7 - Vettel
6 - Ickx, Villeneuve
5 - Berger, Prost, Reutemann
4 - Irvine, Regazzoni, Surtees
3 - Alboreto, Arnoux, Collins, Hawthorn, Phil Hill, Mansell, Scheckter, Fangio
2 - Brooks, Gonzalez, Pironi Tambay, Von Trips
1 - Alesi, Andretti, Baghetti, Bandini, Farina, Scarfiotti, Taruffi, Trintignant, Musso

 

In other words, it's this guy:

 

 

And yes, I know he didn't win the race pictured here.

Edited by Nonesuch, 26 September 2017 - 08:31.

[AlexPrime]

I'd say Michael Schumacher. What he did with the team was incredible and very, very impressive. I doubt that it can be replicated in near future.

[Marklar]

If it's just about driving for Ferrari, it is definitely Schumacher.

[Jovanotti]

Schumi embodies a successful Ferrari team like no other. I'd say MSC > Ascari > Lauda for the top three.

[JG]

Top 3 Greatest Ferrari drivers

 

1. Schumacher

2. Lauda

3. Ascari

[Buttoneer]

I don't see this as a numbers game.

If I had to guess at the most shared youtube clip/anecdote/racing reference used on the forum it would be Villeneuve v Arnoux in Dijon '79. It's like the Godwins law of racing arguments in that someone at some point will inevitably post it and say how everything is so much worse today. "Look" the forumer will exclaim in support of whatever "they didn't have xyz. Drivers today are such wimps."

So I think that puts Villeneuve right up there.

[SophieB]

I was only reflecting at the weekend how I believe Gilles Villeneuve to be the Platonic ideal of a Ferrari driver so I'm going with that. To me, he best embodies the powerful yet possibly hard to pin down spirit of the marque, in terms of passion, charisma, skill and determination and also an additional even harder to define mysterious X quality. I don't know. I grant it's an emotional thing rather than a hard numbers thing although I respect the work Nonesuch has done in making a good case using that metric.

 

To me, it's like Gilles Villeneuve somehow WAS Ferrari, made into a person.

[DeKnyff]

The most successful, of course Michael Schumacher.

 

"The best" is a bit more difficult, we also have two other drivers in the Schumacher class: Fangio and Prost, whose stints at Ferrari were either very short or completely untimely.

[RedBaron]

I don't see this as a numbers game.

 

I agree it shouldn't be simply most wins, titles and the winner is decided by stats alone.

 

Numbers should be taken into account though, as should the merits behind your Villeneuve choice and others.

 

It's also a very subjective question and can be swayed a lot by the era we each grew up watching.

[Nonesuch]

I don't see this as a numbers game.

 

True, it's not. But with the numbers being as they are, Schumacher has won more remarkable victories for Ferrari than others, with the possible exception of Lauda, have won for Ferrari in total. Some real F1 classics, too.

 

He even won an underwater Grand Prix.

 

[SophieB]

That is a fantastic photo.

[sopa]

So this is the thread for tifosi to show up?   

 

As always depends on the definition of 'greatest'. I am sure some consider Gilles as the greatest Ferrari driver till this day.

 

In terms of impact and results obviously Michael all the way, after breaking the 21-year-old WDC drought. Historically only Lauda comes close in terms of impact at the time, by turning the struggling team around. Obviously his Ferrari career was much shorter, but nevertheless by all means great - out of 4 seasons 2 WDC's, one very near (and unfortunate) loss, and one season, where he also could have won but for perhaps some unluck and inexperience.

[noriaki]

Tazio Nuvolari

[johnmhinds]

Kind of a toss up between Fangio, Prost and Schumacher, but most of Fangio and Prost's achievements weren't done at Ferrari so I guess it goes to Schumacher.

[realracer200]

I can't really decide so Lauda, Villeneuve and Schumacher.

[HP]

I agree it shouldn't be simply most wins, titles and the winner is decided by stats alone.

 

Numbers should be taken into account though, as should the merits behind your Villeneuve choice and others.

 

It's also a very subjective question and can be swayed a lot by the era we each grew up watching.

Gilles is the passion of Ferrari, Schumacher the success of Ferrari. Heart and mind issue.

[JRodrigues]

Is there any doubt?

Schumacher. 5x WDC. In a row.

Edited by JRodrigues, 26 September 2017 - 09:05.

[RedBaron]

That is a fantastic photo.

 

 

 

Been my desktop wallpaper for years.

[Henri Greuter]

I can't really decide so Lauda, Villeneuve and Schumacher.

 

 

When asked for the three best drivers I give the same names with the discklaimer that the sequence in which I list their names don't reflect in any way a ranking who of them is rated as the best by me.

 

Henri

[learningtobelost]

 

Been my desktop wallpaper for years.

 

Could you possibly point me towards a high-res version of this? 

[RedBaron]

Could you possibly point me towards a high-res version of this? 

 

Unfortunately it isn't actually high res, only 1024px, so it's not optimal quality when it's stretched to fit modern displays. Still looks nice though:  http://c.files.bbci....a3ac73044bf.jpg

[messy]

Schumacher, by a mile. It's not even close. People rightly say it's not a numbers game, but even there, his time at Ferrari is littered with moments of brilliance - Spain 1996 in the rain, Hungary 1998, Japan 2000, etc etc etc. He covers both the emotive, rose-tinted "do you remember when?" memories AND the numbers game equally. He was the best. 

[RPM40]

Prost

[Requiem84]

Villeneuve's time is idealised. 

[David1976]

It has to be Schumacher.  He achieved more than many thought was possible at Ferrari.  Lauda was also formidable and a force of nature in his day.

 

Fred, despite not winning a championship and the way he left, must also be considered a Ferrari great given his achievements against a dominant Red Bull.  Really he should have had at one championship with them had Ferrari not gaffed with strategy in Abu Dhabi.

[ensign14]

There's a difference between Ferrari's greatest driver and the greatest driver who drove for Ferrari.

 

The latter is Fangio, obviously.  Tony Brooks said of Schumacher that he should read Fangio's book to see how a gentleman behaves.  But Fangio was not good for Ferrari because he was better than the Scuderia. 

 

The former?  I'd rate Ascari above Schumacher.  Not least because he didn't need team orders or GBH to win nine in a row.

 

But above both is Tazio Nuvolari.  Who won for Ferrari when Ferrari had an Alfa shitbox against the sci fi of the Silver Arrowses.  Keeping the dream alive in the Nazi nightmare.  It's pretty repugnant that Rowlinson doesn't bother with pre-war Grands Prix.  They were more important than the post-war ones.

[ensign14]

I was only reflecting at the weekend how I believe Gilles Villeneuve to be the Platonic ideal of a Ferrari driver so I'm going with that. To me, he best embodies the powerful yet possibly hard to pin down spirit of the marque, in terms of passion, charisma, skill and determination and also an additional even harder to define mysterious X quality.

 

***

 

To me, it's like Gilles Villeneuve somehow WAS Ferrari, made into a person.

 

That's Gilles embodying the idealized Ferrari of the tifosi.  If Gilles were the embodiment of the real Ferrari, he'd have been Pironi.
 

[Rob29]

would agree on Ascari

[LiftAndCoast]

Where's Luca Badoer?

[anachronox]

One choice, Michael!   

[CoolBreeze]

Easy.

 

Rubens Barrichello

[ANF]

Giancarlo Baghetti because he won his first three grands prix, all in a Ferrari!

[Buttoneer]

Where's Luca Badoer?

He doesn't meet the race winner criterion.

[Tsarwash]

Mike Hawthorn. He was the prettiest at least. 

[BlackCat]

Gilles was the reason i loved Ferrari. Schumacher was the reason i hated Ferrari.

[F1matt]

There's a difference between Ferrari's greatest driver and the greatest driver who drove for Ferrari.

 

The latter is Fangio, obviously.  Tony Brooks said of Schumacher that he should read Fangio's book to see how a gentleman behaves.  But Fangio was not good for Ferrari because he was better than the Scuderia. 

 

The former?  I'd rate Ascari above Schumacher.  Not least because he didn't need team orders or GBH to win nine in a row.

 

But above both is Tazio Nuvolari.  Who won for Ferrari when Ferrari had an Alfa shitbox against the sci fi of the Silver Arrowses.  Keeping the dream alive in the Nazi nightmare.  It's pretty repugnant that Rowlinson doesn't bother with pre-war Grands Prix.  They were more important than the post-war ones.

 

 

 

Hard to disagree with any of that!

[maverick69]

Schumacher....... by any objective measure...... by a long, long way.

 

But you've got a few "hero's" in there: Gilles, Mansell, Ickx etc.

 

The "unloved": Lauda, Prost, Alonso.........

 

I would say that Gilles is the most iconic Ferrari driver FWIW.

Edited by maverick69, 26 September 2017 - 10:52.

[DaanF1]

I follow Formula One since '94 so obviously I need to say Schumacher.

[jjcale]

Who is Ferrari's all time greatest driver??    

 

... is that a serious question??

 

 

How about - who is Ferrari's second greatest ever driver??   .... now that would be a question.  For me its Alesi - still my favourite Ferrari driver (....Gilles is just before my time)

[chunder27]

Lauda for me. 

 

Did exactly what Michael did, but two decades earlier.

 

Revolutionised the team, made them consistent winners.Turned a dog into a swan.

[phrank]

Prost of course, Schumacher only drove a red Benetton

[LuckyStrike1]

In terms of results - Schumacher 

 

In terms of charisma and spirit  - Gilles Villeneuve

 

In terms of intriguing story - Niki Lauda 

 

In terms of my nationality and how great it actually was he got the drive - Stefan Johansson 

[amedeofelix]

Gilles Villeneuve no question.  Forget results - he was Enzo's ideal driver.  Enzo would forgive not finishing so long as the driver was clearly giving it their all.  Nobody gave their all like Gilles.  Look at say Peterson, or Alesi and they both could 'drop their head' in a poor car, but not Gilles.  Just look at his exploits in the 1980 T5 to prove that.  Even without seeing the videos look at the grids and compare his starting positions to the champ Jody Schecter who's retirement was probably precipitated by the terrible 1980 Ferrari.

Edited by amedeofelix, 26 September 2017 - 11:39.

[noriaki]

It's pretty repugnant that Rowlinson doesn't bother with pre-war Grands Prix.  They were more important than the post-war ones.

 

Nah Rowlinson's just parroting what Bernie's been teaching everyone for the past 25 years. It doesn't show up on the record books of the Formula One World Championship? It never happened!

 

The artificial 1950 divide to what we ignorant modern motorsport-fans consider "non-racing" and "racing" is there only because AIACR were a bunch of amateurs and nobody could make a proper Championship work, it had nothing to do with the status and the importance of the actual racing. Regardless of the shortcomings of the administration, during the thirties the quality of the machinery, the competitors and the "pinnacle status" of the Grand Prix racing was far higher than it would be ever be on the fifties.

 

In fact I believe that other than some marathons, cycling stages and the Indy 500, no single day sporting event in history has broken the attendance record of 300k set in the 1935 German GP. It also says something that Farina won the 1950 Formula One Swiss Grand Prix in the same car that he won the 1939 Swiss Grand Prix in - the Voiturette (effectively Formula 2) category of the race, that is...

 

So, Nuvolari. With Ascari, Schumacher, Lauda, perhaps Phil Hill (3x Le Mans when it was big & 1x WDC) and Gilles trailing - the order between them completely depending on one's personal preferences. Alonso, Fangio, Prost and Mansell were all great drivers too, but none of them primarily associate with Ferrari.

 

Who is Ferrari's all time greatest driver??    

 

... is that a serious question??

 

 

How about - who is Ferrari's second greatest ever driver??   .... now that would be a question.  For me its Alesi - still my favourite Ferrari driver (....Gilles is just before my time)

 

The clue is in the bold. Even if we follow Bernie's rules, Ascari had a higher win rate for the Scuderia than the German & actually pioneered the revolutionizing the Scuderia trick way before Lauda and MSC 

Edited by noriaki, 26 September 2017 - 12:01.

[Brackets]

It can't be MSC because of the stunt he pulled on Ferrari in late '99.

[Risil]

Do I remember correctly that up until his death in 1988, the highest compliment to a driver that Enzo Ferrari held is reserve was "like Nuvolari"? That tells you all you need to know. Er, unless I made it up.

 

Villeneuve, Lauda and Ascari in a dead heat for second. As far as I'm concerned "Greatest of all time" contains a moral standard as well as the possession of talent and results. Michael Schumacher disgraced himself repeatedly on track, so I feel uncomfortable ranking him with the four drivers above, who were all peerless.

 

That's excluding Fangio, Alonso and Andretti who belong in that company but perhaps not because of their stints at Ferrari.

[Lights]

This shouldn't need a question or a thread.