25 replies to this topic

[f1steveuk]

I've just watched the superb Williams documentary, and my ears pricked up when I heard a couple of comments.

 

As the story unfolded of Walter Wolf stepping in and the creation of the Wolf-Williams team, and Frank's "ousting", there were several comments on how Frank, and those close to him, both in family and business, were disappointed by Scheckter's win in the Wolf WR1, to the effect that the win was in what would have been the new Williams.

 

Did I misunderstand? Did they misunderstand, or was the original outline of what  became the WR1, in reality, what would have been a Williams, and was inherited by Wolf because it was already on the drawing board?

[chunder27]

I always though the 76 Wolf was basically a Hesketh in just about everything but name?

[2F-001]

The '76 Wolf-Williams cars might possibly be described as Heskeths-in-all-but-name, since Postlethwaite had gone to Wolf-Williams with, I believe, some of the existing cars.

But the reference Steve cites is about the 1977 car. There was a season's gap between the end of Hunt-era Hesketh and the debut of Wolf-without-Williams.

The WR1 could only have been a 'Williams' if the split with Wolf hadn't happened (when it would surely have been a Wolf-Williams) or if the split had somehow left both Postlethwaite and his designs remaining with the Williams camp. Quite possibly, though, Harvey had begun work on the WR1 before the split was finalised.

Edited by 2F-001, 28 September 2017 - 14:00.

[f1steveuk]

I suspect it is a matter of timing, and raw nerves, having been ousted, after a mere one season of partnership, that first win must have grated, hence the disappointment, but I am pretty certain, and I paraphrase slightly, "he won in what would have been a Williams".

[ensign14]

In retrospect, Scheckter going from GP-winning (and still WC-worthy) Tyrrell to a team with which even Jacky Ickx couldn't score a point is one of the most bizarre moves going.  But it worked.

[Tim Murray]

My understanding (based mainly on Doug's Racers book, and also on earlier threads here) is that Harvey P had been working on the design of what became WR1 since the middle of 1976 with Patrick Head as his assistant. Although Frank had been moved aside from the running of the team, he didn't finally sever his links with them until after the 1977 Brazilian GP, taking Patrick with him. Doug quotes Frank as saying that it was watching 'his' team win in Argentina without him being there that finally convinced him to leave Wolf.

[Allen Brown]

By a curious coincidence, I have just published a page on the Williams FW05.  I don't normally advertise ORC here but as it's relevant:

http://www.oldracing.../williams/fw05/

 

Walter Wolf paid for the acquisition of the Hesketh project and therefore acquired Postlethwaite as well, so I don't see how the WR1 would ever have been a Williams.  A Wolf-Williams maybe but that 1976 season had been an utter disaster, with the FW05 being right at the back of the grid all season.  That was more to do with the car that anything else - the 308C was just a rubbish car - but it looks like Wolf saw Frank as part of the problem.  Wolf brought in Peter Warr for 1977 and I suspect he was more of the difference than many of the other factors.

 

Two other relevant and recent stories:

http://www.oldracing.../williams/fw04/ - the Williams FW04, which was nowhere near as bad as the FW05.

http://www.oldracing...m/hesketh/308c/ - the Hesketh 308C, which just about worked in Hunt's hands, but Hunt was a bit special.

[Michael Ferner]

In retrospect, Scheckter going from GP-winning (and still WC-worthy) Tyrrell to a team with which even Jacky Ickx couldn't score a point is one of the most bizarre moves going.  But it worked.

Not so bizarre when you consider that it was essentially a 1977 version of the Hesketh, and that went very well a couple years before!

I really don't understand what this thread is about - of course, the Wolf was "what would have been a Williams", it was the same team with just a different name!

[f1steveuk]

Just trying to clarify that the WR1 was not a Williams per se (as in a "left over" design),  but just perceived as such by those who felt they should still have had control of the team. The question arose out of the obvious strength of feeling by the Williams family.

[Mohican]

Maybe so, but fact remains that Walter Wolf bought the Williams team and that was all there was to it. The Hesketh 308C which became the Wolf-Williams FW05 was simply no good; not when driven by Hunt either.

Various Honda people may have been upset seeing the Brawn team winning the world championship in 2009 with essentially a Mercedes-powered Honda, but you have to live with your decisions.

[AJCee]

Seemed a straightforward enough question to me. The WR1 has the look of the next evolution of the 308 line (for obvious reasons). It's a case of the control of the organisation that fielded it and the manner in which that control had changed.
Still, it didn't take WGPE long to overhaul Wolf.

[arttidesco]

I never thought there was too much wrong with the 308C which had two points paying finishes in 1975 that along with Ickx fourth it the '76 Race of Champions suggests plenty of potential for such a low monocoque design with it's inherent undesirable flexibility.

 

More likely I suspect there was plenty wrong with the mix of Wolf and Williams both fiercely determined in their own ways and blind to playing to the strengths of the other, this sort of stuff does not take long to percolate down through a smallish organisation, which Wolf Williams was at the time, with adverse effects on performance.

 

My hunch is that Williams was / is miffed that he ever sold anything to Wolf in the first place, maybe he had hoped he would gain a sleeping partner, and that Wolf was / is miffed he did not buy out Williams 100% from the get go.

 

As history would show one was in it for the long term and the other not.

[Peter Morley]

Walter Wolf paid for the acquisition of the Hesketh project and therefore acquired Postlethwaite as well, so I don't see how the WR1 would ever have been a Williams.  A Wolf-Williams maybe but that 1976 season had been an utter disaster, with the FW05 being right at the back of the grid all season.  That was more to do with the car that anything else - the 308C was just a rubbish car - but it looks like Wolf saw Frank as part of the problem.  Wolf brought in Peter Warr for 1977 and I suspect he was more of the difference than many of the other factors.

 

308C might be rubbish but according to the current adverts it is extremely valuable!!

[chunder27]

You have to also say fair play to Jody, it would be like someone such as Barrichello in the 00's moving to Minardi or something, as in 76 Wolf Williams were really not that good.

 

I am sure he was paid remarkably well for the deal, but it was a leap of faith for sure

[Michael Ferner]

Surely Scheckter could well recall what Hunt had done with the Hesketh, as well as anybody else could, and it was very much unlike going to Minardi who had never done well, but more like a move to a team that just had had a miserable season, like Lauda and Regazzoni moving to Ferrari in '74, or Andretti to Lotus in '76.

[chunder27]

Didn't Harvey design the Hesketh aswell?  in 75?

 

OK, so you say it was nothing like Minardi, fair enough, more like Sauber who have been up and down.

 

Hunt did very well in 75, the Hesketh did not really do much privately in 76 with Edwards and a few others, and was awful in Williams hands despite some good drivers like Ickx and didn't Amon drive it briefly?

 

Either way the car was not bad in 75, became bad in 76, but was the 77 car a 308 or new?  I would imagine new? Maybe using the tub?  Not sure

[Tim Murray]

You're talking about two very different cars. The Hesketh 308/308B was a decent chassis with which James Hunt had a lot of success in 1974/75. The 308C had a completely different chassis, very wide and flat, with torsional rigidity not much better than a wet sponge. This car was an absolute dog, and was the car that became the Wolf-Williams FW05 and gave the team their dreadful 1976 season. Its replacement, which became the Wolf WR1-4, was essentially an improved version of the Hesketh 308B and immediately restored the team's competitiveness.

[chunder27]

Ah OK, it all blurs together and was a very long time ago!!

[Charlieman]

I assembled a Tamiya model of the Wolf WR1 around about 1978. I thought at the time that it was similar in layout to the later Williams FW06 which I had seen in photos. Both were astoundingly good pre-ground effects cars.

 

And so good looking.

[arttidesco]

I beg to differ that the 308C was a dog, how many absolute dogs score world championship points on their first two outings ?

[Tim Murray]

I think that James Hunt was skilful and brave enough to drive around the 308C's inherent problems, which its later drivers were unable or unwilling to do. Even then James could qualify only 15th at Watkins Glen, and regularly complained that the car was difficult to drive, with extreme end-of-corner oversteer.

See Allen's comments above, and also how DCN summed up its 1976 performance in Racers:

The car was aerodynamically and structurally indifferent, and as it was strengthened and continuously modified during 1976, so it grew grossly overweight. Eventually it was something like 120 lbs over the minimum weight limit, so it had a second-per-lap time penalty built in. Its suspension and steering left much to be desired, primarily due to flexion, and following Hunt's complaint at the end of 1975 that the prototype car was giving him 'all kinds of funny messages', the Wolf drivers were all at sea in '76.

Woof woof!

[Charlieman]

Put up a Wolf WR1 alongside a Williams FW06. They aren't the same but they match.

[racinggeek]

Take a look at the Hesketh 308E that was the marque's "comeback" car in 1977 and you'll see it has a strong resemblance to the Wolf WR1 -- not in results, for sure, but physical appearance. Postlewaithe leave any of his drawings around Lord Alexander's garage before he left for Wolf?

[f1steveuk]

The 308E was more down to Frank Dernie, and has nothing to do with the Wolf WR1, other than it ended up looking similar (I think Nigel Stroud was also involved to an extent as well. Harvey was nowhere near the 308E!!

[FLB]

In retrospect, Scheckter going from GP-winning (and still WC-worthy) Tyrrell to a team with which even Jacky Ickx couldn't score a point is one of the most bizarre moves going.  But it worked.

I've always thought that said more about Jody's opinion of the P34...

[Mohican]

Scheckter is seldom given credit for being among the few not taken in by the Tyrrell P34 hype, even though he won a race with the car.

he was absolutely right to leave Tyrell when he did, just as Peterson was absolutely wrong to join from March.

 

As an aside, the very low Hesketh 308C chassis had a 1976 soul mate in the equally low and flat Hill GH2 (designed by Andy Smallman) which sadly never raced. But I do not think that it would have been any more successful.