30 replies to this topic

[fan27]

I'm trying to find out more information regarding the 1964 Rand Grand held on the 12 December 1964 at Kyalami and in particular its status. I'm looking for the following information: 

 

1) The status of the race. I don't believe that it was a FIA sanctioned event, more likely a local AA race. Can anyone confirm? 

2) What were the rules of the race - did all calls have to conform to the current regulations of the day? 

3) Was it classed as an official "International" race? 

 

I would be grateful if anyone can help, any official documentation, etc. 

[Porsche718]

Fan27, your querie suggests you think that 1963 and 1965 were FIA events?

 

AFAIK Rand in 1964 was an FIA sanctioned Formula One event. All cars had to conform to F1 rules as the event was always a lead-up (practice - if you like) for the following South African Grand Prix. It was also part of the SA national championship - which at that time was for F1 cars. 

 

Every list I have seen in books in my library include it as a full F1 race. None suggest otherwise.

 

I assume you already have full results. If not I can post results that will be more complete that wiki.

 

Cheers, Steve

[fan27]

Hi Steve, 

 

Thanks for your message, it's very useful. I would be very interested in seeing the full results, any information would be great as I only have the wiki results. 

 

I have been in touch with the FIA and they have no record of the 1964 Rand Grand Prix being an official FIA event which therefore leads me to think that it was a local AA sanctioned race. Regarding the '63 and '65 GP's, the car that I'm researching only competed in the '64 GP hence my question regarding that specific race, although of course it applies to the years either side to '64.

 

I have a feeling that the 63,64 and 65 Rand GP's were not official FIA events but run to the current F1 regulations of that specific year. 

 

Thanks again, 

 

Arnout

[Porsche718]

Arnout, which car/driver are you researching?

[fan27]

Rauten Hartman and his Netuar. 

[bradbury west]

Search for Kyalami, Rand Grand Prix 1964 and scroll down to silhouet.com with their list of non championship races. Full details are there. I have checked in Sunset on Kyalami, a wonderful photo, narrative, results book, btw, and there have the same info.
Roger Lund

[Porsche718]

Bob Olthoff married Rauten Hartman's daughter Helene.

[Tim Murray]

Surely those Rand Grands Prix must have been run on full international permits? If they had been national events, the non-South African drivers would have needed to obtain South African racing licences in order to compete.

[D-Type]

I'm a little confused by the terminology here.  Does "FIA sanctioned" mean the same as "International race" or could a national automobile club like the Automobile Association of South Africa also sanction, ie license, an international race under powers delegated by the FIA/CSI? 

 

The 1975 FIA Yellow Book lists 4 categories:

1 Grande Epreuve
2 FIA Championship (any - not just F1
3 Full Internationa event

4 International event
 

[Tim Murray]

Any event run by a motor club affiliated to the FIA via its National Sporting Authority is by definition FIA-sanctioned. The regulations for even my club's minor trials and autotests etc must contain the following sentence:
 

The meeting will be governed by the General Regulations of the Motor Sports Association (incorporating the provisions of the International Sporting Code of the FIA) and these Supplementary Regulations.

The question here has to be whether the Rand Grands Prix in question were national or international events, and my understanding is that they must have been international events, otherwise non-South African-licensed drivers would have been unable to take part.

[Tim Murray]

Here's an earlier thread on the race, although it doesn't help with the current question:

Searching for details of the 1964 Rand GP

[DCapps]

To repeat that others have been saying (& saying...) -- I think that it is safe to say that the event was an certainly an "international" event on the international calendar since otherwise how would the Lotus, Willment, Parnell, and the Anderson teams and their drivers been able to compete in what might have otherwise been something of a "club" event? Apparently the organizers chose to run the event to the regulations pertaining to the International Racing Formula No. 1, which they were free to do. The event was also subject to whatever regulations that the AA of SA might have applied to such an event -- or any other event held within its jurisdiction for that matter -- pretty much SOP for any national organization for a major (or minor) event within its jurisdiction.

 

Or, am I simply missing something?

 

As for the FIA being clueless, that is scarcely a shock. History is not one of their strong points, even (perhaps especially) their own. Given that the CSI was magically transformed into the FISA almost 40 years ago and then with the FISA itself disappearing about 25 years ago, that no one at the FIA could really answer your question, suggests that they really had no clue as to how to respond to your inquiry, is scarcely a surprise: maybe they should invest in a copy of The Black Books and maybe for instance even purchase all the issues of Autocourse since that would increase their historical collection of material by roughly 99%. That you got a response at all is amazing in and of itself. Given that the answer should have been easily found in the CSI archives suggests that there either are no CSI archives or they are clueless (that word again) as to their existence.

[Porsche718]

DCapps. you are so cynical!! Correct but cynical

[DCapps]

DCapps. you are so cynical!! Correct but cynical

 

I am light years beyond cynicism...

[Alan Baker]

As has been pointed out, it would have to have been on the International calendar for non South African licence holders to take part. In the USA, where (in the absence of a national licensing body) racing licences were administered by the individual governing bodies, i.e. NASCAR, USAC, SCCA  etc., NASCAR were always careful to ensure that their big events were on the international calendar so that holders of USAC international licences such as Foyt and Andretti could take part.

[DCapps]

As has been pointed out, it would have to have been on the International calendar for non South African licence holders to take part. In the USA, where (in the absence of a national licensing body) racing licences were administered by the individual governing bodies, i.e. NASCAR, USAC, SCCA  etc., NASCAR were always careful to ensure that their big events were on the international calendar so that holders of USAC international licences such as Foyt and Andretti could take part.

 

I am sure that this lack of "a national licensing body" would come as amazing news to ACCUS (Automobile Competition Committee for the United States), the organization in the United States responsible for placing events on the international calendar and issued international licenses for US drivers...

[ensign14]

DCapps. you are so cynical!! Correct but cynical

 

A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist.  -Sir Humphrey Appleby

[D-Type]

I am sure that this lack of "a national licensing body" would come as amazing news to ACCUS (Automobile Competition Committee for the United States), the organization in the United States responsible for placing events on the international calendar and issued international licenses for US drivers...

When did ACCUS appear on the scene?  I though the "national licensing body" was USAC who replaced the AAA when the latter backed out following the 1955 Le Mans disaster for fear of the possible liability in the event of a similar accident occurring in the USA..

Edited by D-Type, 03 October 2017 - 22:06.

[DCapps]

yord

When did ACCUS appear on the scene?  I though the "national licensing body" was USAC who replaced the AAA when the latter backed out following the 1955 Le Mans disaster for fear of the possible liability in the event of a similar accident occurring in the USA..

 

Nope. Based on its -- for lack of a better, less polite word -- arrogance, the USAC made the assumption that would automatically slide into the position that the AAA Contest held on the CSI. However, it ran afoul of That Which Is Almost Never Ever Named By Auto Racing Historians -- politics. The CSI had its reservations (no surprise) and with blood in the water, the SCCA and NASCAR were happy to toss lots of chum in as well. The CSI handled US affairs in 1956, including the international calendar (Sebring & Indianapolis) and other affairs. The preliminary group that led to the ACCUS appears to have surfaced during 1957, did its bloodletting in 1958 while getting organized, and was officially recognized in early 1959 by the CSI. It was, of course, much messier than that and it seems that ACCUS and others have tended to gloss over the rampant ugliness present during its creation and performed something of an Orwellian rewrite pretty much eliminating the usual handbags & flamethrowers at dawn that make the early meetings lots of fun for all involved. As well as lots of the later ones for that matter....

Edited by DCapps, 03 October 2017 - 23:06.

[Alan Baker]

Sorry, I forgot about ACCUS, but they issue international licences. So the principle is the same, i.e. NASCAR events on the international calendar so that competitors from other national  sanctioning bodies can take part if they have an ACCUS international licence.

[Michael Ferner]

I think ACCUS was probably far better known outside the USA than in the States itself - it was always what amounts to a non-entity, basically. Does it still exist? Was CART ever a member? Any Sprint car club other than USAC? Does it make any difference whether you have an ACCUS stamp or not on your licence when you show up at 99.99 % of all US tracks? Probably not on all four counts.

[fan27]

Since I began this discussion a few days ago I've received confirmation from the FIA that the 1964 Rand Grand Prix, and therefore I presume also the '63 and '65 editions, was run under international permit. 

 

There was a bit of confusion initially as the South African Grand Prix was originally scheduled for the 26 December 1964 but was then moved to the 1/1/65 and there was no sign of the Rand GP being part of the official FIA calendar. The FIA have been very helpful and a bit more digging was done by their archivists which uncovered a document stating that the Rand GP of 64 was infact part of the official calendar. 

 

So mystery solved! Thanks for all your input, it's been very useful.  

[DCapps]

I think ACCUS was probably far better known outside the USA than in the States itself - it was always what amounts to a non-entity, basically. Does it still exist? Was CART ever a member? Any Sprint car club other than USAC? Does it make any difference whether you have an ACCUS stamp or not on your licence when you show up at 99.99 % of all US tracks? Probably not on all four counts.

 

(1) ACCUS still exists. (2) CART was a member. (3) No Sprint Car organizations except for USAC. (4) Given that those events do not require an international license....no.

 

 

Since I began this discussion a few days ago I've received confirmation from the FIA that the 1964 Rand Grand Prix, and therefore I presume also the '63 and '65 editions, was run under international permit. 

 

There was a bit of confusion initially as the South African Grand Prix was originally scheduled for the 26 December 1964 but was then moved to the 1/1/65 and there was no sign of the Rand GP being part of the official FIA calendar. The FIA have been very helpful and a bit more digging was done by their archivists which uncovered a document stating that the Rand GP of 64 was infact part of the official calendar. 

 

So mystery solved! Thanks for all your input, it's been very useful.  

 

I am still shocked and stunned that the FIA actually has actually corresponded with someone regarding such a matter and certainly rather curious, to put it mildly, regarding their recent sudden discovery....

 

On the other hand, why did you doubt us?

[Michael Ferner]

When did CART become a member of ACCUS? By the mid eighties, it wasn't yet.

[DCapps]

When did CART become a member of ACCUS? By the mid eighties, it wasn't yet.

 

It became a member of the ACCUS right after its deal with the SCCA ended regarding sanctioning its events and that was in roughly that timeframe, if not earlier.

[Michael Ferner]

Hmm. Didn't the SCCA deal end right after the debut season, 1979? I have a quote from an early 1984 article by Brock Yates, saying CART "is not a member [of ACCUS] and shows no interest in becoming one". Can we get to the bottom of this?

UPDATE - I found a 1990 advert (of all things!) for Turbo Blue Racing Gasoline (me neither!) with the following specifications for one of its products: "complies with rules (...) of (...) most major race sanctioning organizations including ACCUS-FIA members IMSA, NHRA, NASCAR, SCCA and USAC" Now, this list may not be exclusive, but those same five clubs were listed ten years earlier (during the USAC-CART wars) as the only ACCUS members. Also, I found confirmation that the CART-SCCA partnership ended with the formation of the CRL in early 1980, and was not picked up again after the collapse of same - in fact, the SCCA denied vigorously any connections with CART in July 1980, and by August the dismissed former CART president Jim Melvin got a new job with the SCCA as a sort of "in your face" message.


UPDATE 2 - The Indianapolis News of 1988 Sep 13 explicitly mentions that CART was not an ACCUS member "since it was formed in the late 1970s", but would become one in the hope of clearing the way for a CART race in April of 1989. Now, this is a quarrel I well remember from that time frame, although I don't really recall the details or its conclusion, other than the Japan race not taking place for another ten years or so. But, did CART join ACCUS in 1988 or '89?

Edited by Michael Ferner, 06 October 2017 - 19:45.

[DCapps]

Hmm. Didn't the SCCA deal end right after the debut season, 1979? I have a quote from an early 1984 article by Brock Yates, saying CART "is not a member [of ACCUS] and shows no interest in becoming one". Can we get to the bottom of this?

 

The SCCA deal ended later than 1979. It was probably about 1981/1982 or so.

 

As for Brock Yates.... no clue where he got that from since getting a seat on ACCUS was a very important goal for CART.

 

Yes, we can get to the bottom of this: Michael, get in touch with the FIA....

[Michael Ferner]

See updates above - the SCCA deal ended in the spring of 1980, and CART was not yet an ACCUS member eight-and-a-half years later.

[Michael Ferner]

Another update: a September 1990 article includes a statement by Carl Haas: "CART is a member of ACCUS". Obviously, the 1988 deal happened as planned. Matter solved.

[RAP]

Don

With regards to your suggestion that the FIA should buy the "Black Books", you might be interested to know that Vincent Caro of the FIA Historic Commission bought a set of our "Black Books" Record of Grand Prix & Voiturette Racing earlier this year.

Richard Page

www.formulaoneregister.com 

Edited by RAP, 10 October 2017 - 18:59.

[uechtel]

Good to read, so perhaps they will discover Farina didn´t win his very first race...