14 replies to this topic

[pilota]

I presume that nowadays it's all done on computers, but how did team managers keep notes in the early days, particularly the 30's and the 50/60s? I presume that they were hand-written, but did the Team Manager keep a notebook for each race, or did they use a book which could perhaps keep a year's notes in it? Were the notes typed up after each event or did some Team Managers keep them in hand-written form? Does anyone know any specific examples from the 1930s and the 1950/60s? Thanks.

Nathan

 

[pilota]

Has this question beaten TNFers? I found a book, "Motor Racing Management" by John Wyer, which includes an example of a team manager's technical notes, as recorded at each race and test session. Does anyone have any other examples? Thanks

Nathan 

[Roger Clark]

Doug Nye’s BRM books quote extensively from Tony Rudd’s reports to the Owen Organisation. Not a team manager at the time, but Graham Hill kept a notebook of his chassis settings at every race.

On the other hand, I doubt whether Cooper needed much more than the back of a cigarette packet.

[pilota]

Doug Nye’s BRM books quote extensively from Tony Rudd’s reports to the Owen Organisation. Not a team manager at the time, but Graham Hill kept a notebook of his chassis settings at every race.

On the other hand, I doubt whether Cooper needed much more than the back of a cigarette packet.

Roger, thank you. Very interesting. I would have thought that all Team Manager's kept extensive notes. I know that Scuderia Ferrari kept notes in the pre-war Alfa Romeo days.

Does anyone know if Alfred Neubauer kept notes, and in what format? 

Nathan

Edited by pilota, 16 October 2017 - 08:13.

[Charlieman]

It all depends on professionalism within the racing team. Everyone who was competent kept a chassis log book so that limited life components were replaced appropriately. Track settings (camber, tyre pressure, spring rating, anti-rollbar diameter) would have been recorded, especially for "adjustable" cars like the Cooper and Lotus; even if John Cooper paid little attention, Jack Brabham and Bruce McLaren would have been more aware; if a car was to be sold at the end of the season, a settings record would make it more attractive. Works or semi-works teams in 1960s F2 and F3 raced at the same circuits every year, sometimes several times; smart managers kept log books providing the initial setup for each track.

 

Tony Rudd's reports on the BRM were written for the team owner and covered technical aspects, race tactics and race performance. The detail within them indicates that the BRM team recorded much more at races and tests. BRM supplied customer cars in the 1960s and the buyers expected factory support about basic setup. In the 1950s and earlier, Maserati sold customer GP cars and sent a factory workshop lorry to major events to support them; Maserati depended on customers buying and racing GP cars, so we can assume that the support team knew how to set them up.

 

When Ferrari acquired the Lancia D50 design, the team created a number of experimental models based on it. Monitoring that scenario would have created a lot of data, although Ferrari may have had little interest in the "failed" designs. Mercedes-Benz built and tested different versions of the W196 in a more methodical way.

 

The Tony Rudd reports are informative about the process. Rudd's reports are too structured and detailed to have been dictated on the fly. Tony Rudd must have written them in long hand for a secretary to type up. Rudd then corrected them for the final versions (with fewer mistakes). It must have been a painful experience for the secretary and Mr Rudd. 

 

I too would love to know the format of Mercedes-Benz racing records of the 1950s and earlier.

[pilota]

Charlieman, thank you for your reply. Very informative.

 

Your comments on Ferrari are interesting. IMHO Ferrari was also interested in failed projects, as they would help prevent repeating the same mistakes. I know that Ferrari used to keep a 'chamber of horrors' where failed components were stored so that they could be referred to. Ferrari also kept reports after each race - not just about lap times etc. but also about technical specifications and technical performance. These were bound into a book at the end of each year. 

 

Surely someone must know about the Mercedes-Benz race records?

 

Nathan

[Charlieman]

I know that Ferrari used to keep a 'chamber of horrors' where failed components were stored so that they could be referred to. Ferrari also kept reports after each race - not just about lap times etc. but also about technical specifications and technical performance. These were bound into a book at the end of each year. 

Your description corresponds with what I have read about Ferrari in the 1970s. Unless affected by industrial action, Ferrari built F1 cars at a rapid rate. Niki Lauda wrote that he had a fresh engine every day, for practice or qualifying, because the Flat 12 lost performance over two hours.

 

When Enzo Ferrari fell out with the idea of selling/loaning ex-team single seater cars to privateers -- unless they were trusted partners -- old single seater cars were disassembled for the useful bits with the remains sent for scrap. I think that describes how Ferrari worked from the mid 1950s. Log books may have been retained for sentiment and history.

 

Years ago I went to a "chamber of horrors" hosted by Hepolite, the piston manufacturer. It was more scary to walk around the engine test area, with reinforced glass windows smeared with exploded oil.

[Vitesse2]

 

Surely someone must know about the Mercedes-Benz race records?

 

Nathan

Don Alfredo would surely have kept records, which would - if they survive - likely be within the Daimler archives in Stuttgart. However, D-B did lose some records to Allied bombing. If they had been available, even in 1946 or so, I'd have thought Cameron Earl would have included at least a sample in his report on German racing cars. DCN may know more, of course.

 

The Auto Union records are - I believe - in their archive in Zwickau, so comparatively untouched due to having been the wrong side of the Iron Curtain for so long. Although Eberhard Reuss certainly quotes from them in his book Hitlers Rennschlachten/Hitler's Motor Racing Battles.

[Glengavel]

Doug Nye’s BRM books quote extensively from Tony Rudd’s reports to the Owen Organisation. Not a team manager at the time, but Graham Hill kept a notebook of his chassis settings at every race.

On the other hand, I doubt whether Cooper needed much more than the back of a cigarette packet.

 

Hill took his notes with him to Lotus, much to Chapman's annoyance, I've heard.

[Henk Vasmel]

The Auto Union records are - I believe - in their archive in Zwickau, so comparatively untouched due to having been the wrong side of the Iron Curtain for so long. Although Eberhard Reuss certainly quotes from them in his book Hitlers Rennschlachten/Hitler's Motor Racing Battles.

 

Dr. Peter Kirchberg shows some in his book  Grand-Prix-Report, Auto Union, 1934-1939. I think he is the number one authority in Germany on that team.

[Vitesse2]

Dr. Peter Kirchberg shows some in his book  Grand-Prix-Report, Auto Union, 1934-1939. I think he is the number one authority in Germany on that team.

I should have dug my copies out to check that. I have both the West and East German editions, although as far as I can tell they differ in only one illustration and the quality of the paper used for the jacket. Presumably Kirchberg was granted special dispensation to see them in Zwickau.

[DCapps]

I presume that nowadays it's all done on computers, but how did team managers keep notes in the early days, particularly the 30's and the 50/60s? I presume that they were hand-written, but did the Team Manager keep a notebook for each race, or did they use a book which could perhaps keep a year's notes in it? Were the notes typed up after each event or did some Team Managers keep them in hand-written form? Does anyone know any specific examples from the 1930s and the 1950/60s? Thanks.

Nathan

 

Perhaps the better questionmight be: What happened to the notes developed by racing teams regarding their cars and the venues on which they competed?

 

As several have pointed out, there seems to be little question regarding teams assembling some form of "race notes," more at issue is the form and disposition of them later.

 

At the IMRRC, we have the setup notes for Geoff Bodine's car at one of the WGI events, for instance.

 

When I spent time many moons ago on the NASCAR GN & Sportsman trail, loose-leaf notebooks, spiral-bound composition books, and steno pads seemed rather common way to keep track of things. Holman Moody, Petty Engineering, Cotton Owens, Bud Moore, and others all kept some form of notes on the cars and the tracks. While some might have been more detailed than others, it seemed as if each driver/team kept some type of notes. This struck me since I had seen teams doing something similar when haunting the paddocks found in the Old World. On more than a few occasions, I actually helped with the notes (Bondy Long, Herman Beam, Wendell Scott, Tiny Lund, and others for example). They were usually focused on tires and so forth. However, one element I remember very well was the amount of prize money and other expenses associated with the races; there is an example of this sort of information in one of the exhibits at the NASCAR Hall of Fame Museum in Charlotte. Another item in some were the names of locals who might help with pit work, repairs, accommodations, places to eat, and so forth.

 

More than once, as I did research on the 1964 GN season, I have wished I had copies of those notes.

[Michael Ferner]

Hang on - are we talking engineers here, or team managers? Any engineer worth his salt would, of course, have been keeping records of things sich as set-ups or component lifing, but why would team mangers make, let alone keep records? Other than a ledger perhaps, for expenses and purses won, that is.

[DCapps]

Hang on - are we talking engineers here, or team managers? Any engineer worth his salt would, of course, have been keeping records of things sich as set-ups or component lifing, but why would team mangers make, let alone keep records? Other than a ledger perhaps, for expenses and purses won, that is.

 

The original inquiry was rather vague and asked about "notes" by "team managers," a rather nebulous title in many areas and eras of racing. Agree that those concerned with the engineering aspects could be expected to keep some form of notes. That said, given the small size of most teams until relatively recently or the occasional factory forays into racing, driver/mechanic/manger/owner combinations were rather common as most of us realize. I imagine "record-keeping" by "managers" -- regardless of how we might define either one of them -- was also driven by staff turnover,accounting & tax issues, and so forth and so on relating to the business of racing; plus, it seems to be the sort of thing they would be expected to do, so as to satisfy that perception.

 

But, yes, it is difficult to imagine an engineer not keeping notes.

[pilota]

My main interest is in the technical notes which according to John Wyer were completed by the head mechanic of each car, which were then compiled together by the Team Manager. No doubt the notes were sometimes useful in future testing or racing. What Wyer called the "Car Maintenance Sheet" was very comprehensive, with more than 100 details recorded per car. 

The expenses etc would be of more interest to the team owner I would imagine. 

Thanks to all those who have replied, and if anyone has any information about what records (if any) someone like Neubauer kept then that would be very interesting.

Nathan

Edited by pilota, 17 October 2017 - 17:50.