Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Good morning Vietnam! It’s 6:00 in the morning, what’s the O stand for? It stands for oh look at that F1 car!


  • Please log in to reply
80 replies to this topic

#51 F1 Mike

F1 Mike
  • Member

  • 620 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 08 October 2018 - 20:21

It's really about trying to break into new markets isn't it? There is growth potential when you take a race to a fresh destination.

Advertisement

#52 Talisman

Talisman
  • Member

  • 5,484 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 08 October 2018 - 20:27

The point is F1 doesn’t need to go to places with no heritage to expand, because it it’s not hard to find enough places with that heritage for a full season, and you don’t need a Grand Prix to build up that heritage, as most of the countries on the calendar have proved.

 

I was joking about the agreement.

 

I certainly don't agree that hosting a few DTM or GT races provides 'heritage' which you have used to justify several current venues.  Yet I do think that cracking the Chinese market is a challenge worth persevering with despite the complete lack of penetration of motorsport in national consciousness there.

 

You've also missed another point which I'll repeat one more time.  Motorsport is only currently popular in a small number of countries in Europe, the US, Japan and also other places with a large migrant European community.  The popularity of motorsport in general and F1 in particular is declining in these countries.  These are not the parts of the world where the economy is growing the most.   You would rather exclude the sport from areas of the world where this economic growth is purely because they don't have the right heritage.  Your point doesn't make economic sense.  All this in a sport which due to its nature is extremely sensitive to fluctuations in income.  This is rammed home by your dismissal of Abu Dhabi and Bahrain without which McLaren probably would be teetering on the edge of bankruptcy and Jordan wouldn't have lasted long enough to survive for Midland to purchase.

 

I'd rather the sport change looking forward, not trying to recreate the halcyon days of a period that never truly existed the way people think it did.


Edited by Talisman, 08 October 2018 - 20:52.


#53 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 17,638 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 08 October 2018 - 20:55

I was joking about the agreement.

I certainly don't agree that hosting a few DTM or GT races provides 'heritage' which you have used to justify several current venues. Yet I do think that cracking the Chinese market is a challenge worth persevering with despite the complete lack of penetration of motorsport in national consciousness there.

You've also missed another point which I'll repeat one more time. Motorsport is only currently popular in a small number of countries in Europe, the US, Japan and also other places with a large migrant European community. These are not the parts of the world where the economy is growing the most. The popularity of motorsport in general and F1 in particular is declining in these countries. You would rather exclude the sport from areas of the world where this economic growth is purely because they don't have the right heritage. Your point doesn't make economic sense. All this in a sport which due to its nature is extremely sensitive to fluctuations in income. This is rammed home by your dismissal of Abu Dhabi and Bahrain without which McLaren probably would be teetering on the edge of bankruptcy and Jordan wouldn't have lasted long enough to survive for Midland to purchase.

I'd rather the sport change looking forward, not trying to recreate the halcyon days of a period that never truly existed the way people think it did.

No, I simply think that a world championship (supposedly the pinnacle of the entire sport, I might add) should represent the elite of the motorsport world, and not go chasing money round countries who have not earned a right, in my opinion, to a coveted world championship round.

Going by recent failures of venues, chasing the money when there isn’t any interest doesn’t work anyway.

#54 Talisman

Talisman
  • Member

  • 5,484 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 08 October 2018 - 21:01

No, I simply think that a world championship (supposedly the pinnacle of the entire sport, I might add) should represent the elite of the motorsport world, and not go chasing money round countries who have not earned a right, in my opinion, to a coveted world championship round.

Going by recent failures of venues, chasing the money when there isn’t any interest doesn’t work anyway.

 

Then it wouldn't be a 'world' championship where whole swathes of the planet are excluded and where caucasians make up the vast majority of the participants and viewers.  But to each their own.



#55 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 17,638 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 08 October 2018 - 21:06

Then it wouldn't be a 'world' championship where whole swathes of the planet are excluded and where caucasians make up the vast majority of the participants and viewers.  But to each their own.


I never said that. But to be a world championship it must represent the best in the world. You want to be part of it, you have to prove it. That applies to events as well as competitors. As shown by my earlier list, it is the best way to do it. Award races on merit, as befitting a world championship.

#56 Talisman

Talisman
  • Member

  • 5,484 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 08 October 2018 - 21:11

I never said that. But to be a world championship it must represent the best in the world. You want to be part of it, you have to prove it. That applies to events as well as competitors. As shown by my earlier list, it is the best way to do it. Award races on merit, as befitting a world championship.

 

Sorry but I'm afraid it is exactly what you said.  For a venue to prove worthy you claim the country should demonstrate motorsport heritage, yet only a few countries have that heritage and they are from a predominantly Western background as I've posted several times.  Attempting to diversify the countries the sport operates in would fall at the first hurdle according to your principles.



#57 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 17,638 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 08 October 2018 - 21:45

Sorry but I'm afraid it is exactly what you said.  For a venue to prove worthy you claim the country should demonstrate motorsport heritage, yet only a few countries have that heritage and they are from a predominantly Western background as I've posted several times.  Attempting to diversify the countries the sport operates in would fall at the first hurdle according to your principles.


You’re twisting my words to mean something they’re not meant to. To diversify and expand, the sport needs to grow from the bottom up, not from the top down. That and a world championship round should be earned. First you diversify the sport into new markets, and those that it catches on in, you take F1.

#58 Talisman

Talisman
  • Member

  • 5,484 posts
  • Joined: January 05

Posted 08 October 2018 - 22:23

You’re twisting my words to mean something they’re not meant to. To diversify and expand, the sport needs to grow from the bottom up, not from the top down. That and a world championship round should be earned. First you diversify the sport into new markets, and those that it catches on in, you take F1.

 

Thats a bit tricky where F1 is completely disconnected from the bottom, ie karting and other cheap series no?

 

Also don't countries that pay over the odds to host a race literally earn it?  Their elevated fees keeps teams like Sauber or Force India ticking over by inflating the prize money.  Is that not a worthwhile contribution?



#59 ForzaSurtees

ForzaSurtees
  • New Member

  • 29 posts
  • Joined: March 18

Posted 09 October 2018 - 11:20

You cannot build a motorsport heritage in a new country by racing on a street circuit.

Advertisement

#60 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 18,564 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 20 April 2019 - 22:23

Here's a simulated onboard of the circuit provided by Tilke:



#61 Tsarwash

Tsarwash
  • Member

  • 11,672 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 20 April 2019 - 23:04

Here's a simulated onboard of the circuit provided by Tilke:

The circuit as depicted shall have less overtaking than Monaco. 



#62 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 15,347 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 20 April 2019 - 23:39

The circuit as depicted shall have less overtaking than Monaco.


I counted 3 different deceleration zones from 8th gear to 1st. It'll be fine.

#63 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 14,353 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 21 April 2019 - 01:00

And there will surely be a generous DRS zone.

 

I admit I liked the video more than expected.



#64 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 12,696 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 21 April 2019 - 03:13

Yeah I didn't think that was bad at all.



#65 djparky

djparky
  • Member

  • 789 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 21 April 2019 - 09:05

I found the flip flop more irritating than the track. It looks ok

#66 Goron3

Goron3
  • Member

  • 1,081 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 21 April 2019 - 12:21

The circuit as depicted shall have less overtaking than Monaco.


It's significantly larger than Monaco, with the various straights all allowing for plenty of overtaking. Like Baku, it's a fast street circuit, so the chance of safety cars should also be fairly high.

#67 Tsarwash

Tsarwash
  • Member

  • 11,672 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 21 April 2019 - 12:23

It's significantly larger than Monaco, with the various straights all allowing for plenty of overtaking. Like Baku, it's a fast street circuit, so the chance of safety cars should also be fairly high.

I shall be happy to be proved incorrect. From the video, it looked simply too narrow a track to allow any overtaking at all. 



#68 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 14,353 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 21 April 2019 - 12:44

Maybe the halo's obstruction makes the whole track seem more narrow, some sort of visual effect?

 

I didn;t notice it but I'll watch the video again and try to keep an eye for narrow sections.



#69 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 17,638 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 21 April 2019 - 13:43

It didn’t look particularly narrow to me.

#70 NotAPineapple

NotAPineapple
  • Member

  • 261 posts
  • Joined: July 13

Posted 21 April 2019 - 13:53

The track is fine. Looking at the sattelite images the circuit is at least 10m wide which is the same width as Monza. The main straight is around 13m wide.

 

There are 3 prime overtaking opportunities plus another reasonable one just before the stadium.

 

The esses are going to be a test of balls and precision in the same way as the swimming pool at Monaco but with way higher speeds. Qualifying will surely see a number of drivers eat it on the exit of that 190km/h left hander just before the bridge.



#71 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 7,917 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 21 April 2019 - 14:46

( Baku + Sochi + Yeongam + Yas Marina + Valencia + Singapore )  / 6  =  Hanoi



#72 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 12,696 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 21 April 2019 - 15:25

I can't imagine the esses will be that way in real life - with walls right up to the track. Mexico's esses had a decent runoff compared to that, and the FIA still made them reconfigure them completely, saying there wasn't enough runoff for the speeds involved.


Edited by AustinF1, 21 April 2019 - 15:25.


#73 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 8,553 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 21 April 2019 - 20:23

I can't imagine the esses will be that way in real life - with walls right up to the track. Mexico's esses had a decent runoff compared to that, and the FIA still made them reconfigure them completely, saying there wasn't enough runoff for the speeds involved.

The last Asian Tilke track that had a twisty last sector didn't have an awful lot of runoff:



#74 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 8,553 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 21 April 2019 - 20:23

By the way, is that the world's longest 2nd gear corner at 0:37 in the simulation?

#75 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 12,696 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 21 April 2019 - 22:40

The last Asian Tilke track that had a twisty last sector didn't have an awful lot of runoff:

Yeah I remember, which makes it seem all the stranger to me that they made such a big deal of Mexico's esses ... and then allowed some of the things they allowed in Baku. 



#76 goldenboy

goldenboy
  • Member

  • 5,322 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 22 April 2019 - 06:49

I'd be very curious to know what ticket prices are to see how affordable it is for the locals. If it is affordable for them, I could see it being a huge event.

In the year I lived there I don't remember seeing anything international like this. Biggest sports event I saw was when their under 21 football team got to some Asian competition final, and the place went absolutely crazy even though the game wasn't even in Vietnam.

#77 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 12,696 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 22 April 2019 - 15:37

I'd be very curious to know what ticket prices are to see how affordable it is for the locals. If it is affordable for them, I could see it being a huge event.

In the year I lived there I don't remember seeing anything international like this. Biggest sports event I saw was when their under 21 football team got to some Asian competition final, and the place went absolutely crazy even though the game wasn't even in Vietnam.

I saw somewhere that the ticket prices had been leaked...iirc it was $75 for a 3-day general admission ticket. Very affordable, esp compared to many current GPs. Austin's prices just came out and have gone up again. 3-day GA for the USGP is something like $195 + Fees.


Edited by AustinF1, 22 April 2019 - 15:40.


#78 Eastern

Eastern
  • Member

  • 3,428 posts
  • Joined: April 08

Posted 06 May 2019 - 13:15

I haven't followed this thread, but I was just reading the article on Autosport.

 

Having visited Vietnam only once admittedly, but given that I live in a poor country that spends zillions on prestige projects - I was idly wondering how many hospitals and schools the communist government could provide with the money they are putting into this venture....



#79 andrea303

andrea303
  • Member

  • 401 posts
  • Joined: February 13

Posted 06 May 2019 - 14:07

I haven't followed this thread, but I was just reading the article on Autosport.

 

Having visited Vietnam only once admittedly, but given that I live in a poor country that spends zillions on prestige projects - I was idly wondering how many hospitals and schools the communist government could provide with the money they are putting into this venture....

 

I see you have a valid question there but Vietnam in today's F1 is nothing unusual. About half the calendar should be wiped out for the same reason, when we have races (or FIFA World Cups, or Olympics) in authoritarian and/or corrupted oil states. Formula One, or any other big money sport, is ruthless business.

Now even putting ethical reasons aside, I dislike that these events are held in places where there is either no historical and cultural relevance (Abu Dhabi, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Vietnam,  Singapore, Sochi). These big sporting events rarely produce any major benefits for local communities, and are only used as geopolitical instrument.

From F1's business perspective these locations (in short to medium term) make sense as they get lucrative deals since liquidity is rarely a problem and negotiations are straight forward.

 

Perhaps long term expansion into these territories might not be beneficial for the sport after all if the core audience loses interest in higher ticket prices and races draining from traditional/legendary places into "exotic" venues. Of course the global economic center of gravity is already in Asia so I understand the expansion somewhat.

It didn't interest Bernie or the current owner, what a lifetime F1 fanatic thinks, at least in terms of exciting racing (just more street & night races etc.), and I expect nothing to change in the future. 

 

I'm glad to cry about this here in Autosport Forums though... :yawnface:

 

To be honest, I happen to think that if Ferrari or Merc left the sport (people say it would be the end of F1, especially in the case of Ferrari but nothing stops them from coming back again), it would force the whole sport to restructure better and evolve. The bigger teams that have dominated the sport in the recent past are aggressively lobbying for the status quo and since a certain team holds veto power, its very hard to imagine a budget cap or less asymmetric distribution of money (compare it to UN Security Council where nothing gets solved because of veto power). But who really knows, this is purely speculation.  



Advertisement

#80 djparky

djparky
  • Member

  • 789 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 06 May 2019 - 19:12

I saw somewhere that the ticket prices had been leaked...iirc it was $75 for a 3-day general admission ticket. Very affordable, esp compared to many current GPs. Austin's prices just came out and have gone up again. 3-day GA for the USGP is something like $195 + Fees.


How affordable is that for the average Vietnamese? It's not really about the locals, more as a prestige event for the country.


How

#81 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 16,627 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 06 May 2019 - 20:09

How affordable is that for the average Vietnamese? It's not really about the locals, more as a prestige event for the country.
 

 

This site quotes an average wage of 3.2 million dong per month ($150 - so a ticket costs half your monthly wages - not really a feasible propsect for most Vietnamese then). Urban folk in 'professional' jobs do rather better although $75 is still quite a lot if your monthly pay is less than $1,000.

 

But we should rememeber that: - (a) FOM couldn't give a toss about poor Vietnamese, and (b) neither could the Vietnamese government, which like every other government, whether capitalist hyenas or socialist heroes, cares only about getting a good seatfor themselves in a hospitality unit for the race.