99 replies to this topic

[F1 Mike]

It's really about trying to break into new markets isn't it? There is growth potential when you take a race to a fresh destination.

[Talisman]

The point is F1 doesn’t need to go to places with no heritage to expand, because it it’s not hard to find enough places with that heritage for a full season, and you don’t need a Grand Prix to build up that heritage, as most of the countries on the calendar have proved.

 

I was joking about the agreement.

 

I certainly don't agree that hosting a few DTM or GT races provides 'heritage' which you have used to justify several current venues.  Yet I do think that cracking the Chinese market is a challenge worth persevering with despite the complete lack of penetration of motorsport in national consciousness there.

 

You've also missed another point which I'll repeat one more time.  Motorsport is only currently popular in a small number of countries in Europe, the US, Japan and also other places with a large migrant European community.  The popularity of motorsport in general and F1 in particular is declining in these countries.  These are not the parts of the world where the economy is growing the most.   You would rather exclude the sport from areas of the world where this economic growth is purely because they don't have the right heritage.  Your point doesn't make economic sense.  All this in a sport which due to its nature is extremely sensitive to fluctuations in income.  This is rammed home by your dismissal of Abu Dhabi and Bahrain without which McLaren probably would be teetering on the edge of bankruptcy and Jordan wouldn't have lasted long enough to survive for Midland to purchase.

 

I'd rather the sport change looking forward, not trying to recreate the halcyon days of a period that never truly existed the way people think it did.

Edited by Talisman, 08 October 2018 - 20:52.

[PayasYouRace]

I was joking about the agreement.

I certainly don't agree that hosting a few DTM or GT races provides 'heritage' which you have used to justify several current venues. Yet I do think that cracking the Chinese market is a challenge worth persevering with despite the complete lack of penetration of motorsport in national consciousness there.

You've also missed another point which I'll repeat one more time. Motorsport is only currently popular in a small number of countries in Europe, the US, Japan and also other places with a large migrant European community. These are not the parts of the world where the economy is growing the most. The popularity of motorsport in general and F1 in particular is declining in these countries. You would rather exclude the sport from areas of the world where this economic growth is purely because they don't have the right heritage. Your point doesn't make economic sense. All this in a sport which due to its nature is extremely sensitive to fluctuations in income. This is rammed home by your dismissal of Abu Dhabi and Bahrain without which McLaren probably would be teetering on the edge of bankruptcy and Jordan wouldn't have lasted long enough to survive for Midland to purchase.

I'd rather the sport change looking forward, not trying to recreate the halcyon days of a period that never truly existed the way people think it did.

No, I simply think that a world championship (supposedly the pinnacle of the entire sport, I might add) should represent the elite of the motorsport world, and not go chasing money round countries who have not earned a right, in my opinion, to a coveted world championship round.

Going by recent failures of venues, chasing the money when there isn’t any interest doesn’t work anyway.

[Talisman]

No, I simply think that a world championship (supposedly the pinnacle of the entire sport, I might add) should represent the elite of the motorsport world, and not go chasing money round countries who have not earned a right, in my opinion, to a coveted world championship round.

Going by recent failures of venues, chasing the money when there isn’t any interest doesn’t work anyway.

 

Then it wouldn't be a 'world' championship where whole swathes of the planet are excluded and where caucasians make up the vast majority of the participants and viewers.  But to each their own.

[PayasYouRace]

Then it wouldn't be a 'world' championship where whole swathes of the planet are excluded and where caucasians make up the vast majority of the participants and viewers.  But to each their own.

I never said that. But to be a world championship it must represent the best in the world. You want to be part of it, you have to prove it. That applies to events as well as competitors. As shown by my earlier list, it is the best way to do it. Award races on merit, as befitting a world championship.

[Talisman]

I never said that. But to be a world championship it must represent the best in the world. You want to be part of it, you have to prove it. That applies to events as well as competitors. As shown by my earlier list, it is the best way to do it. Award races on merit, as befitting a world championship.

 

Sorry but I'm afraid it is exactly what you said.  For a venue to prove worthy you claim the country should demonstrate motorsport heritage, yet only a few countries have that heritage and they are from a predominantly Western background as I've posted several times.  Attempting to diversify the countries the sport operates in would fall at the first hurdle according to your principles.

[PayasYouRace]

Sorry but I'm afraid it is exactly what you said.  For a venue to prove worthy you claim the country should demonstrate motorsport heritage, yet only a few countries have that heritage and they are from a predominantly Western background as I've posted several times.  Attempting to diversify the countries the sport operates in would fall at the first hurdle according to your principles.

You’re twisting my words to mean something they’re not meant to. To diversify and expand, the sport needs to grow from the bottom up, not from the top down. That and a world championship round should be earned. First you diversify the sport into new markets, and those that it catches on in, you take F1.

[Talisman]

You’re twisting my words to mean something they’re not meant to. To diversify and expand, the sport needs to grow from the bottom up, not from the top down. That and a world championship round should be earned. First you diversify the sport into new markets, and those that it catches on in, you take F1.

 

Thats a bit tricky where F1 is completely disconnected from the bottom, ie karting and other cheap series no?

 

Also don't countries that pay over the odds to host a race literally earn it?  Their elevated fees keeps teams like Sauber or Force India ticking over by inflating the prize money.  Is that not a worthwhile contribution?

[ForzaSurtees]

You cannot build a motorsport heritage in a new country by racing on a street circuit.

[OO7]

Here's a simulated onboard of the circuit provided by Tilke:

[Tsarwash]

Here's a simulated onboard of the circuit provided by Tilke:

The circuit as depicted shall have less overtaking than Monaco. 

[noikeee]

The circuit as depicted shall have less overtaking than Monaco.

I counted 3 different deceleration zones from 8th gear to 1st. It'll be fine.

[Atreiu]

And there will surely be a generous DRS zone.

 

I admit I liked the video more than expected.

[AustinF1]

Yeah I didn't think that was bad at all.

[djparky]

I found the flip flop more irritating than the track. It looks ok

[Goron3]

The circuit as depicted shall have less overtaking than Monaco.

It's significantly larger than Monaco, with the various straights all allowing for plenty of overtaking. Like Baku, it's a fast street circuit, so the chance of safety cars should also be fairly high.

[Tsarwash]

It's significantly larger than Monaco, with the various straights all allowing for plenty of overtaking. Like Baku, it's a fast street circuit, so the chance of safety cars should also be fairly high.

I shall be happy to be proved incorrect. From the video, it looked simply too narrow a track to allow any overtaking at all. 

[Atreiu]

Maybe the halo's obstruction makes the whole track seem more narrow, some sort of visual effect?

 

I didn;t notice it but I'll watch the video again and try to keep an eye for narrow sections.

[PayasYouRace]

It didn’t look particularly narrow to me.

[NotAPineapple]

The track is fine. Looking at the sattelite images the circuit is at least 10m wide which is the same width as Monza. The main straight is around 13m wide.

 

There are 3 prime overtaking opportunities plus another reasonable one just before the stadium.

 

The esses are going to be a test of balls and precision in the same way as the swimming pool at Monaco but with way higher speeds. Qualifying will surely see a number of drivers eat it on the exit of that 190km/h left hander just before the bridge.

[muramasa]

( Baku + Sochi + Yeongam + Yas Marina + Valencia + Singapore )  / 6  =  Hanoi

[AustinF1]

I can't imagine the esses will be that way in real life - with walls right up to the track. Mexico's esses had a decent runoff compared to that, and the FIA still made them reconfigure them completely, saying there wasn't enough runoff for the speeds involved.

Edited by AustinF1, 21 April 2019 - 15:25.

[ANF]

I can't imagine the esses will be that way in real life - with walls right up to the track. Mexico's esses had a decent runoff compared to that, and the FIA still made them reconfigure them completely, saying there wasn't enough runoff for the speeds involved.

The last Asian Tilke track that had a twisty last sector didn't have an awful lot of runoff:

[ANF]

By the way, is that the world's longest 2nd gear corner at 0:37 in the simulation?

[AustinF1]

The last Asian Tilke track that had a twisty last sector didn't have an awful lot of runoff:

Yeah I remember, which makes it seem all the stranger to me that they made such a big deal of Mexico's esses ... and then allowed some of the things they allowed in Baku. 

[goldenboy]

I'd be very curious to know what ticket prices are to see how affordable it is for the locals. If it is affordable for them, I could see it being a huge event.

In the year I lived there I don't remember seeing anything international like this. Biggest sports event I saw was when their under 21 football team got to some Asian competition final, and the place went absolutely crazy even though the game wasn't even in Vietnam.

[AustinF1]

I'd be very curious to know what ticket prices are to see how affordable it is for the locals. If it is affordable for them, I could see it being a huge event.

In the year I lived there I don't remember seeing anything international like this. Biggest sports event I saw was when their under 21 football team got to some Asian competition final, and the place went absolutely crazy even though the game wasn't even in Vietnam.

I saw somewhere that the ticket prices had been leaked...iirc it was $75 for a 3-day general admission ticket. Very affordable, esp compared to many current GPs. Austin's prices just came out and have gone up again. 3-day GA for the USGP is something like $195 + Fees.

Edited by AustinF1, 22 April 2019 - 15:40.

[Eastern]

I haven't followed this thread, but I was just reading the article on Autosport.

 

Having visited Vietnam only once admittedly, but given that I live in a poor country that spends zillions on prestige projects - I was idly wondering how many hospitals and schools the communist government could provide with the money they are putting into this venture....

[andrea303]

I haven't followed this thread, but I was just reading the article on Autosport.

 

Having visited Vietnam only once admittedly, but given that I live in a poor country that spends zillions on prestige projects - I was idly wondering how many hospitals and schools the communist government could provide with the money they are putting into this venture....

 

I see you have a valid question there but Vietnam in today's F1 is nothing unusual. About half the calendar should be wiped out for the same reason, when we have races (or FIFA World Cups, or Olympics) in authoritarian and/or corrupted oil states. Formula One, or any other big money sport, is ruthless business.

Now even putting ethical reasons aside, I dislike that these events are held in places where there is either no historical and cultural relevance (Abu Dhabi, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Vietnam,  Singapore, Sochi). These big sporting events rarely produce any major benefits for local communities, and are only used as geopolitical instrument.

From F1's business perspective these locations (in short to medium term) make sense as they get lucrative deals since liquidity is rarely a problem and negotiations are straight forward.

 

Perhaps long term expansion into these territories might not be beneficial for the sport after all if the core audience loses interest in higher ticket prices and races draining from traditional/legendary places into "exotic" venues. Of course the global economic center of gravity is already in Asia so I understand the expansion somewhat.

It didn't interest Bernie or the current owner, what a lifetime F1 fanatic thinks, at least in terms of exciting racing (just more street & night races etc.), and I expect nothing to change in the future. 

 

I'm glad to cry about this here in Autosport Forums though...

 

To be honest, I happen to think that if Ferrari or Merc left the sport (people say it would be the end of F1, especially in the case of Ferrari but nothing stops them from coming back again), it would force the whole sport to restructure better and evolve. The bigger teams that have dominated the sport in the recent past are aggressively lobbying for the status quo and since a certain team holds veto power, its very hard to imagine a budget cap or less asymmetric distribution of money (compare it to UN Security Council where nothing gets solved because of veto power). But who really knows, this is purely speculation.  

[djparky]

I saw somewhere that the ticket prices had been leaked...iirc it was $75 for a 3-day general admission ticket. Very affordable, esp compared to many current GPs. Austin's prices just came out and have gone up again. 3-day GA for the USGP is something like $195 + Fees.

How affordable is that for the average Vietnamese? It's not really about the locals, more as a prestige event for the country.


How

[BRG]

How affordable is that for the average Vietnamese? It's not really about the locals, more as a prestige event for the country.
 

 

This site quotes an average wage of 3.2 million dong per month ($150 - so a ticket costs half your monthly wages - not really a feasible propsect for most Vietnamese then). Urban folk in 'professional' jobs do rather better although $75 is still quite a lot if your monthly pay is less than $1,000.

 

But we should rememeber that: - (a) FOM couldn't give a toss about poor Vietnamese, and (b) neither could the Vietnamese government, which like every other government, whether capitalist hyenas or socialist heroes, cares only about getting a good seatfor themselves in a hospitality unit for the race.

[itsgreen84]

According to Dutch pitreporter Jack Plooij on the radio this morning, it is now unlikely that Vietnam will be part of the 2020 calendar because nothing has happened yet in terms of construction.

 

Barcelona has been asked to host a race on May 3rd or May 10th, with the other of those dates going to Zandvoort.

[SonGoku]

I have seen a documentary about the country and already questioned how they have a F1 race...

[goldenboy]

According to Dutch pitreporter Jack Plooij on the radio this morning, it is now unlikely that Vietnam will be part of the 2020 calendar because nothing has happened yet in terms of construction.

Barcelona has been asked to host a race on May 3rd or May 10th, with the other of those dates going to Zandvoort.

Lol. Why am I not surprised. Add it to the skeletal metro structures hanging around half finished for yeeeeears.

[goldenboy]

This site quotes an average wage of 3.2 million dong per month ($150 - so a ticket costs half your monthly wages - not really a feasible propsect for most Vietnamese then). Urban folk in 'professional' jobs do rather better although $75 is still quite a lot if your monthly pay is less than $1,000.

But we should rememeber that: - (a) FOM couldn't give a toss about poor Vietnamese, and (b) neither could the Vietnamese government, which like every other government, whether capitalist hyenas or socialist heroes, cares only about getting a good seatfor themselves in a hospitality unit for the race.

75 bucks is a pretty damn expensive for the average Vietnamese. The local bars throughout the city would be jam packed though, I think they would still be interested in it.

Edited by goldenboy, 15 July 2019 - 08:37.

[markeimas27]

According to Dutch pitreporter Jack Plooij on the radio this morning, it is now unlikely that Vietnam will be part of the 2020 calendar because nothing has happened yet in terms of construction.

 

Barcelona has been asked to host a race on May 3rd or May 10th, with the other of those dates going to Zandvoort.

 

I work in the sport and was told the same thing by a colleague last week. Said colleague does a lot of commercial work directly with Chase and Bratches.

 

It's worth remembering though that India was the same for their first race. I was at that first race in India and they were still finishing off construction work on the Thursday of the race weekend. I expect it will be similar, however.... the one major difference is that India was staffed quite heavily quite quickly with the Jaypee group as the promoter. I understand Vietnam is not like that yet.

[Kalmake]

Funny no one though of doing this before. "Vietnam will be the first circuit that has been designed from ground up to be a great racing circuit" - Ross Brawn

 

https://www.motorspo...ircuit/4500286/

[Whatisvalis]

Funny no one though of doing this before. "Vietnam will be the first circuit that has been designed from ground up to be a great racing circuit" - Ross Brawn

 

https://www.motorspo...ircuit/4500286/

 

What a novel idea...

[Retrofly]

Can't wait until we get an oval.

 

Honestly, a single oval race would be great, could see some times focusing on the race in particular and getting some different results. Also bring a whole new set of skills into the driving mix.

[Atreiu]

According to Dutch pitreporter Jack Plooij on the radio this morning, it is now unlikely that Vietnam will be part of the 2020 calendar because nothing has happened yet in terms of construction.

 

Barcelona has been asked to host a race on May 3rd or May 10th, with the other of those dates going to Zandvoort.

 

Not having both of Vietnam and Barceona would be the ideal scenario to me.

[Atreiu]

Funny no one though of doing this before. "Vietnam will be the first circuit that has been designed from ground up to be a great racing circuit" - Ross Brawn

 

https://www.motorspo...ircuit/4500286/

 

 

It's a brave new world.

[PayasYouRace]

Funny no one though of doing this before. "Vietnam will be the first circuit that has been designed from ground up to be a great racing circuit" - Ross Brawn

 

https://www.motorspo...ircuit/4500286/

 

Yet it looks just like any other modern half-street circuit.

[Beri]

Can't wait until we get an oval.

Honestly, a single oval race would be great, could see some times focusing on the race in particular and getting some different results. Also bring a whole new set of skills into the driving mix.

A non banked oval would actually be a great addition.

[OO7]

Can't wait until we get an oval.

 

Honestly, a single oval race would be great, could see some times focusing on the race in particular and getting some different results. Also bring a whole new set of skills into the driving mix.

Just run the full Monza circuit.

[pingu666]

wonder what the vmax would be on a oval f1 car (with oval aero kit) would be pretty high i guess

[pingu666]

Just run the full Monza circuit.

 

its crazy bumpy in racing sims, (not tried iracing). would pound the drivers spins to dust currently

[PiperPa42]

A non banked oval would actually be a great addition.

Get F1 to Milwaukee.

[ar1]

wonder what the vmax would be on a oval f1 car (with oval aero kit) would be pretty high i guess

 

 

Think that the comparison is quite difficult as you wouldn't be able to run a F1 engine at full throttle for the extented time they do at Indy as they would never make the engine last like they have to but assuming that could be done and taking loads of downforce off the car didn't totally screw up the balance, F1 cars weigh 70% of what a McLaren speedtail does and have about the same power - that goes 250 mph so you've got to say maybe 255 - 260

 

I think that this is still the current open wheeled average record - https://www.apnews.c...c6eaa468269b2eb

[Pete_f1]

That first long LONG right hand corner wont do anything for overtaking

[masa90]

Well, was the article on the autosport frontpage about this race?

 

In a way, would be nice to have new crazy track. It seems like Baku. But somehow there seems to be nothing about it. Would think that they would advertise it more?? I see f1.com is already selling tickets?

 

On other hand, would be ok to have atleast one more of F1 in Barcelona so I could finally go there. But that is just selfish reason.