54 replies to this topic

[AustinF1]

So, we all know about the Ferrari spark plug issue on Sunday in Suzuka.

 

https://www.motorspo...nese-gp-963223/

 

And apparently they aren't the only ones who had spark plug problems as Mercedes reportedly replaced the #6 plug on Lewis's car.

 

 

I have to admit I don't know how common this kind of failure is. My memory isn't great, but it doesn't seem to happen too often. Now we've had two on the same race weekend, between qualifying and the race, on different cars using different plugs, in a season with its fair share of controversy over oil burning. When was the last time a spark plug failure compromised an F1 car in a significant way on a GP weekend? 

[amedeofelix]

OK, blimey.  Clearly Merc picked up the problem somehow during quali or in between it and parking the car up.  Lucky them!  However, where are you getting this from?  Post a link for that instead I'd suggest, or as well at least!

Edited by amedeofelix, 09 October 2017 - 15:27.

[AustinF1]

OK, blimey.  Clearly Merc picked up the problem somehow during quali or in between it and parking the car up.  Lucky them!  However, where are you getting this from?  Post a link for that instead I'd suggest, or as well at least!

Alberto Fabrega. Stand by.

[Mosrite]

I was surprised it was a spark plug, but anything can fail. What's interesting is that both Hamilton and Vettel had failed spark plugs in the same race, and this affected the championship. This could be a goldmine for conspiracy theorists

[gillesfan76]

But didn't we see/hear about Ferrari changing one of the spark plugs on Seb's car BEFORE the race? In fact they were working frantically on it and he was near the car not leaving it which is why he missed the national anthem in the first place.

 

I still haven't heard anything about this, because it sounds very strange if true i.e they detected and replaced a faulty plug before the race and then during the race either the replaced one or another one altogether fails???

[onemoresolo]

Wasn't Verstappen's Spa retirement caused by a spark plug also? Very odd to have such a spate of similar problems, I don't recall any prior to this season.

[onemoresolo]

But didn't we see/hear about Ferrari changing one of the spark plugs on Seb's car BEFORE the race? In fact they were working frantically on it and he was near the car not leaving it which is why he missed the national anthem in the first place.

 

I still haven't heard anything about this, because it sounds very strange if true i.e they detected and replaced a faulty plug before the race and then during the race either the replaced one or another one altogether fails???

 

They noticed it when he left the garage and tried to change it on the grid, but ran out of time.

 

They tried different engine maps/settings but it didn't work.

[Marklar]

It's relatively common to change IIRC, but I'll check later

Alberto Fabrega. Stand by.

https://www.fia.com/...?token=xJG-OaHz

[Mark123]

They are running the cars with high air to fuel ratio and it's got to the point the heat is effecting the spark plugs. Aggressive ignition systems often cause havoc on the internals. The metal prong on the end of the plugs will melt and cause this situation.

[AustinF1]

Here you go: https://twitter.com/...362075726364672

[amedeofelix]

It's relatively common to change IIRC, but I'll check later

https://www.fia.com/...?token=xJG-OaHz

 

Fascinating.  Thank you.  Wow, that Haas has a stink load of work done!  Yup, I can only assume Merc picked up a failure after his pole lap - how lucky can one get?!  Though he doesn't need it Hammy should have bought a lottery ticket!

[Kaiser]

I came here looking for the real reason for Sebs failure. If a spark plug goes bad, and you replace it and you still have the problem, the spark plug isn't the issue. I'd like to know what really failed.

[gillesfan76]

They noticed it when he left the garage and tried to change it on the grid, but ran out of time.

 

They tried different engine maps/settings but it didn't work.

 

Thanks! I thought they had actually managed to change it. Strange, weird going on hope like that. Would've thought it'd be worth taking it back to the pits, changing it and starting from pit lane. Sure it's a huge hit but you never in the race, safety car etc and with alternative tyre strategy could have got some valuable points.

[MadYarpen]

I guess it happens from time to time. Alonso won Bahrain 2010 (?) because of that.

[Marklar]

I have to admit I don't know how common this kind of failure is. My memory isn't great, but it doesn't seem to happen too often. Now we've had two on the same race weekend, between qualifying and the race, on different cars using different plugs, in a season with its fair share of controversy over oil burning. When was the last time a spark plug failure compromised an F1 car in a significant way on a GP weekend? 

 

These were the spark plug changes during parc ferme this season

 

China - Verstappen
Russia - Ericsson
Monaco - Ricciardo

[ExFlagMan]

Ah - the old Ferrari excuse resurfaces in slightly different . 

 

Ferrari crawls into pits, fluids emanating from several orifices.

Ferrari reports problem as 'electrical failure'.

Graham Hill (IIRC) comments - 'yeah - when the con-rod came out of the block it severed the plug leads'.

[Jerem]

So I guess the engine manufacturers don't build their own spark plugs. Do we know what companies do them? If it's the same company that makes Mercedes and Ferrari spark plugs, this could explain why they'd both be failing.

 

Or, as Fabrega is suggesting, could the oil burning/multiple ignition techniques cause such failures?

[JeePee]

Wasn't Verstappen's Spa retirement caused by a spark plug also? Very odd to have such a spate of similar problems, I don't recall any prior to this season.

A sensor thought that a spark plug had failed, and shut down the engine. Back in the pits they took it out, checked it, nothing to see, screwed it back in and the engine did fine. That was a really stupid DNF in front of his home crowd.

[AustinF1]

So I guess the engine manufacturers don't build their own spark plugs. Do we know what companies do them? If it's the same company that makes Mercedes and Ferrari spark plugs, this could explain why they'd both be failing.

 

Or, as Fabrega is suggesting, could the oil burning/multiple ignition techniques cause such failures?

I've heard conflicting reports on this. A guy on another board says the F1T guys say they're both NGK.  Gruener says Merc is not NGK, but doesn't say what they are. IDK.

[AustinF1]

A sensor thought that a spark plug had failed, and shut down the engine. Back in the pits they took it out, checked it, nothing to see, screwed it back in and the engine did fine. That was a really stupid DNF in front of his home crowd.

Well, Engine Limits, thanks for that.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I've heard conflicting reports on this. A guy on another board says the F1T guys say they're both NGK. Gruener says Merc is not NGK, but doesn't say what they are. IDK.

Is Mercedes Bosch or Denso?

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Are they pushing the leanness of the combustion thus the temperature that far, that the spark plugs can not cope?

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 09 October 2017 - 17:33.

[Oho]

I came here looking for the real reason for Sebs failure. If a spark plug goes bad, and you replace it and you still have the problem, the spark plug isn't the issue. I'd like to know what really failed.

 

They could no replace it, ran out of time, The plugs are buried too deep under other stuff (ancillaries, mgu-H, intake manifold (?)) to be quickly serviceable.

Edited by Oho, 09 October 2017 - 18:00.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

So I guess the engine manufacturers don't build their own spark plugs. Do we know what companies do them? If it's the same company that makes Mercedes and Ferrari spark plugs, this could explain why they'd both be failing.

Or, as Fabrega is suggesting, could the oil burning/multiple ignition techniques cause such failures?

I once had an Astra that would foul the spark plug up due to excessive oil... in about 10 miles, but this was an old Ecotec with over 160k on the clock...

[V8 Fireworks]

So I guess the engine manufacturers don't build their own spark plugs. Do we know what companies do them?

 

 

I would  be very surprised if they don't come from the world's largest spark plug suppliers such as NGK, Denso (i.e., Toyota), Bosch and AcDelco (i.e., General Motors).... The same brands you use on your road car. 

 

Even the turbos they use come from the world's largest turbo suppliers such as BorgWarner, Garrett, Mitsubishi and IHI.  While the pistons probably come from the world's largest motorsport piston suppliers such as MAHLE etc.

 

You buy things from companies that are good at making said things, they will manufacture it to the spec you require. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 09 October 2017 - 20:18.

[scheivlak]

So, we all know about the Ferrari spark plug issue on Sunday in Suzuka.

 

https://www.motorspo...nese-gp-963223/

 

And apparently they aren't the only ones who had spark plug problems as Mercedes reportedly replaced the #6 plug on Lewis's car.

 

 

I have to admit I don't know how common this kind of failure is. My memory isn't great, but it doesn't seem to happen too often. Now we've had two on the same race weekend, between qualifying and the race, on different cars using different plugs, in a season with its fair share of controversy over oil burning. When was the last time a spark plug failure compromised an F1 car in a significant way on a GP weekend? 

 

From older race reports I get the idea that it was not that uncommon in the 1950, 1960s and 1970s, though in those years plugs were easily changed and drivers simply soldiered on after a necessary pit stop (e.g. a 1968 German GP report: "Surtees came in for a plug change"....)

[Lee Nicolle]

Was Sebs a actual spark plug failure or the piston hit it and closed the gap! One expects that the plugs should be easy to get at and the tonnes of telemetry would tell them which cylinder. I suspect this could be the proverbial 'electrical problem' where the conrod knocked the alternator off of the engine.

[Oho]

Was Sebs a actual spark plug failure or the piston hit it and closed the gap!

 

Cant happen with F1 plugs http://www.formula1-...spark-plug.html, they have cocentric ring electrodes.

[deedee]

Now we've had two on the same race weekend, between qualifying and the race, on different cars using different plugs, in a season with its fair share of controversy over oil burning. When was the last time a spark plug failure compromised an F1 car in a significant way on a GP weekend? 

Well i think it is most likely due to their heavy oil-burning in qualifying, those plugs are very sensitive to "dirt". Mercedes was wise enough to change them before race, Ferrari obviously not so.

Edited by deedee, 10 October 2017 - 00:08.

[Fatgadget]

I recall plug lead failure on Lewis car a few years back?..ended his race.

[Fatgadget]

I would  be very surprised if they don't come from the world's largest spark plug suppliers such as NGK, Denso (i.e., Toyota), Bosch and AcDelco (i.e., General Motors).... The same brands you use on your road car. 

 

Even the turbos they use come from the world's largest turbo suppliers such as BorgWarner, Garrett, Mitsubishi and IHI.  While the pistons probably come from the world's largest motorsport piston suppliers such as MAHLE etc.

 

You buy things from companies that are good at making said things, they will manufacture it to the spec you require. 

Champion and Lodge not on that illustrious plug list?...And no KKK on the  turbo front?

Edited by Fatgadget, 10 October 2017 - 00:35.

[Fatgadget]

Well i think it is most likely due to their heavy oil-burning in qualifying, those plugs are very sensitive to "dirt". Mercedes was wise enough to change them before race, Ferrari obviously not so.

Should that have been the case,surely a quick change of all the plugs would have resolved the problem!

[AustinF1]

Should that have been the case,surely a quick change of all the plugs would have resolved the problem!

They didn't have the time. Tighter packaging = longer repair times.

[myusername]

once in heavy rain, my motorcycle sparplug coil cant light up, i blow wind from my mouth to get it dry hahaha

[Wuzak]

Well i think it is most likely due to their heavy oil-burning in qualifying, those plugs are very sensitive to "dirt". Mercedes was wise enough to change them before race, Ferrari obviously not so.

 

Mercedes changed one spark plug on one car after qualifying.

 

If your theory is correct they surely would have changed all six on both cars?

[Wuzak]

They didn't have the time. Tighter packaging = longer repair times.

 

Not once they left the garage, no.

 

But I believe that the previous poster was suggesting that they did it, as routine, at the same time Mercedes did - after qualifying.

 

However, if a team was asking to change six plugs on a car the FIA may be a touch suspicious as to why and not grant permission.

[teejay]

I recall plug lead failure on Lewis car a few years back?..ended his race.

 

Melbourne 2014 

 

Clearly both teams are running things harder trying to final those precious bits of time. It happens.

[mangeliiito]

Which year was it when Renault had an insane number of issues with the spark plugs?

[SenorSjon]

Every year?

[mangeliiito]

Every year?

yeah. But I remember one year when Vettel got all the good ones to not threaten the championship.

[V8 Fireworks]

Champion and Lodge not on that illustrious plug list?...And no KKK on the  turbo front?

 

I use Champion on the lawn mower (sadly a Briggs and Straton, not a mighty Honda), never really heard of them as being considered top quality.   From what I hear, everyone says that NGK is the best... at least in Japanese car circles. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 10 October 2017 - 09:01.

[Fatgadget]

I use Champion on the lawn7! mower (sadly a Briggs and Straton, not a mighty Honda), never really heard of them as being considered top quality.   From what I hear, everyone says that NGK is the best... at least in Japanese car circles. 

Yeah, Champion N9Y the equivalent of a NGK6 and NY6= NGK7 ! 

[Fatgadget]

They didn't have the time. Tighter packaging = longer repair times.

So how long a complete plug change on a F1 car these days?....Anyone?...Pretty certain it wouldnt have taken more than the blink of an eye on a DFV back in the day eh!

[kevinracefan]

soon spark plugs will be made of Unobtainium and cost $2000 each..

 

#F1

[deedee]

Should that have been the case,surely a quick change of all the plugs would have resolved the problem!

As Austin already said, they didn't have enough time to do this on the grid. As i learned today they had an ignition wire problem too -  excuse ?.  

 

You never know, Formula 1 is full of hypocrisy, lies and fudge.

[w1Y]

NGK isn't that far from where I live. I never knew they made F1 spark plugs.

[deedee]

Mercedes changed one spark plug on one car after qualifying.

 

If your theory is correct they surely would have changed all six on both cars?

Remember, the cars were on parc fermé terms at that time and that means you are basically not allowed to "touch" the car, except for some checks etc. but changing plugs is not allowed without special permit. 

 

Interestingly Ferrari in Sepang changed some without permit, while Mercedes had to ask for. Make your own assumptions with FIA's handling of their regulations. 

[Wuzak]

Remember, the cars were on parc fermé terms at that time and that means you are basically not allowed to "touch" the car, except for some checks etc. but changing plugs is not allowed without special permit. 

 

Interestingly Ferrari in Sepang changed some without permit, while Mercedes had to ask for. Make your own assumptions with FIA's handling of their regulations. 

 

Ferrari changed Vettel's ICE, TC and MGUH in parc ferme in Malaysia. Vettel received a grid penalty for this.

 

Ferrari also changed Vettel's "Front brake friction material" and Kimi's "LHS front brake drum anchor nut".

 

"All above parts have been replaced with the approval of the FIA technical delegate following a written request from the team concerned, this being in accordance with Article 34.2 of the 2017 Formula One Sporting Regulations."

 

So, what exactly are you talking about?

[deedee]

Ferrari changed Vettel's ICE, TC and MGUH in parc ferme in Malaysia. Vettel received a grid penalty for this.

 

Ferrari also changed Vettel's "Front brake friction material" and Kimi's "LHS front brake drum anchor nut".

 

"All above parts have been replaced with the approval of the FIA technical delegate following a written request from the team concerned, this being in accordance with Article 34.2 of the 2017 Formula One Sporting Regulations."

 

So, what exactly are you talking about?

Did i mention the car involved ? Fact is - Ferrari just changed plug(s) and Mercedes had to ask FIA at least twice.

Also, why do you wonder that FIA only lists changes which were approved ?   

[Wuzak]

Did i mention the car involved ? Fact is - Ferrari just changed plug(s) and Mercedes had to ask FIA at least twice.

Also, why do you wonder that FIA only lists changes which were approved ?   

 

Ferrari changed plugs when?

 

I'm sure they change plugs after P3. It's not a controlled item.