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Dutch Grand Prix in 2020


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#1 Nemo1965

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:14

I would not have believed it when I had not read it.

 

https://www.autospor...tch-street-race

 

Your thoughts? Is this a pipe-dream to lure Dutch sponsors into F1? Or are the F1-powers that be serious?

 

The thought of a street-race in Amsterdam is at one time inspiring, because I always invent race-tracks in the streets when I bike to my work. But the logistics... already shopping on a Saturday in the city centre is a nightmare. The police sometimes has to come by to free shoppers from stores because they can't leave the premises because of the throng outside!

 

 



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#2 Ivanhoe

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:21

I would welcome a street race in my home town Rotterdam, think it would have the possibilities for a challenging lay out, we have lots of tarmac in the city centre, more so than Amsterdam I think.


Edited by Ivanhoe, 10 October 2017 - 08:30.


#3 Nemo1965

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:23

I would welcome a street race in my home town Rotterdam, think it would have the possibilities for a challenging lay out.

 

How do you assess the logistics? I once ended up in a Michael Jackson-cue around the station. It was incredible...



#4 Auzz

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:24

That would be an absolute nightmare.

Further: leave Assen alone for the MotoGP. From historical perspective Zandvoort would be awesome, but a logistical nightmare. Perhaps a new but oldschool inspired track in the Flevopolder would be nice.

#5 Nemo1965

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:38

The only remotely possible venue in Amsterdam I could think of is just outside of the centre, in sight of the new business-center De Zuidas (but not AT the Zuidas, for heavens sake!). Perhaps there could be a track on the highway around that area, with one quick sweep pass the buildings.

 

locatie_amstelpark12.jpg

But I just can't imagine the slightly-left-wing Amsterdam political scene every condoning a race there. Rotterdam would indeed be a better bet...



#6 Laster

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:38

I really don’t like this push for street races. It is rare they make for good tracks, we could easily end up with another Sochi. The track is every bit as important in creating exciting races as the cars themselves, if a track fails to produce opportunities for overtakes then you get lame races at the venue year after year. I don’t know whether Zandvoort is a good track for overtaking, I’ve never seen a race on it. But I would rather F1 went to tracks made for racing, rather than streets adapted for it once a year.

#7 Anja

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:41

I don’t know whether Zandvoort is a good track for overtaking, I’ve never seen a race on it.

 

The current layout is pretty awful in that regard. Nice for driving, terrible for racing. 



#8 Jbleroi

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:41

SPA has the exclusive rights to organise a F1 GP in the Benelux.

and f@*k street circuits,  

and indeed please leave Assen for motor GP 

Zandvoort will never happen again

only sensible option would be a circuit in the Polder,

I hope it never happens, we already have Spa so what is the problem.  



#9 Requiem84

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:41

Singapore has become a classic race. Baku has the ingredients to become a classic, Montreal is a classic, Monaco is a classic... 

 

Better a proper street race than a new Tilke disaster without any emotions attached. But the risk to create a new Valencia or Sochi definitely is there as well... 



#10 Nemo1965

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:43

Singapore has become a classic race. Baku has the ingredients to become a classic, Montreal is a classic, Monaco is a classic... 

 

Better a proper street race than a new Tilke disaster without any emotions attached. But the risk to create a new Valencia or Sochi definitely is there as well... 

 

What a about a new Istanbul? That Tilke-track (who is too easily disdained) is fantastic...



#11 maverick69

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:46

One quick look at Google Earth shows that Amsterdam has very, very limited options. From a very hazy memory from my youth - I don't remember it being a particularly street-racy type place.

 

Rotterdam has some interesting spaces and routes in and about the river.

 

 

Zandvoort is only 15 miles or so away from Amsterdam. You could have the race there and still have a "crazy time" in A-Dam........



#12 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:48

Given that we have a new Dutch hero in F1 I think it would be a great idea.

 

I really don’t like this push for street races. It is rare they make for good tracks, we could easily end up with another Sochi. The track is every bit as important in creating exciting races as the cars themselves, if a track fails to produce opportunities for overtakes then you get lame races at the venue year after year. I don’t know whether Zandvoort is a good track for overtaking, I’ve never seen a race on it. But I would rather F1 went to tracks made for racing, rather than streets adapted for it once a year.

 

Sochi isn't a street track. Like Valencia, it's a permanent track in an urban setting, and that's rubbish. Street circuits that use actual streets tend to be better, like Singapore.

 

Zandvoort was good back in its heyday, but F1 cars had outgrown it somewhat. The current circuit is much shorter and tighter than the old one. I wouldn't say it's suitable.

 

Assen should be OK. It hosted Champ Car in its last year.



#13 johnmhinds

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:49

I really don’t like this push for street races. It is rare they make for good tracks, we could easily end up with another Sochi. The track is every bit as important in creating exciting races as the cars themselves, if a track fails to produce opportunities for overtakes then you get lame races at the venue year after year. I don’t know whether Zandvoort is a good track for overtaking, I’ve never seen a race on it. But I would rather F1 went to tracks made for racing, rather than streets adapted for it once a year.


Bernie screwed up all the investment in dedicated circuits by making such a mess in India and Korea, street tracks are the only viable option left for the sport because nobody wants another £250 million+ white elephant that requires another £50 million investment each year just get F1 to attend.

#14 peroa

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:51

Hmmm, I don't really see a GP in a country where they are pretty adamant on banning ICE's in 5-10 years.


Edited by peroa, 10 October 2017 - 09:00.


#15 JeePee

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:56

One quick look at Google Earth shows that Amsterdam has very, very limited options. From a very hazy memory from my youth - I don't remember it being a particularly street-racy type place.

Nobody would have though we'd be going through the castle-section at Baku either, so I think they'll manage in Amsterdam.
 
But Rotterdam has far more options than Amsterdam with it's wider streets and much more tarmac. You can do a Bridge to Bridge there (Erasmus and Willemsbrug).
 
Zandvoort is a no-go for modern day F1 (the longest straight is barely 600 meters) and Assen is a bike track.


#16 onemoresolo

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:59

I'm not against street tracks. I don't think they particularly have a lower success rate than conventional circuits. Melbourne, Montreal, Singapore and Baku all have merits. Sochi, Valencia not so much. 

 

As long as there's a balance between street and specialist (in favour of the latter), and enough variety (ie distinct characteristics) then I'm OK.

 

However, these proposals seem shaky if looking to add circuits just because of a certain driver. Verstappen, OK, he's likely to be in F1 for 15 years.

 

The proposal for Denmark because of Magnussen is somewhat less understandable; he could be out of F1 by the time it comes to fruition.



#17 Requiem84

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:02

What a about a new Istanbul? That Tilke-track (who is too easily disdained) is fantastic...

 

If you give Tilke 15 chances, he might create 1 or 2 proper tracks. 

 

But I think the direction F1 is aiming to go is more of a atmospheric vibe. I'm sure they would love to show all kind of panoramic shots when the cars are running through the core city center of Amsterdam, which houses all have been built around the 17th century etc. 

 

If they really want to, I'm sure they can plan a great route in Amsterdam. It would be 'reimagining the impossible', exactly the kind of vibe F1 nowadays wants to ooze. 



#18 Ivanhoe

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:03

How do you assess the logistics? I once ended up in a Michael Jackson-cue around the station. It was incredible...


Should be okay, Rotterdam has quite some experience with big venues in the City Center. The last City race edition had 450.000 visitors, without big logistic issues.

#19 mphilipp

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:05

Zandvoort need a completer rebuild of track and facilities before they can think of organizing a GP. And there is a campsite right next to it that won't allow a F1 race to take place I think...

Assen applied for F1 accreditation. It's a modern track. I think it had to be widend a bit, but Indy raced there, so it is suitable.

 

Rotterdam has some space in town, but I believe there is also a designated area for a new harbour (Maasvlakte) that is not build yet. You could setup something there. Would be a bit like the Indycar races at airports.



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#20 Nemo1965

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:19

Zandvoort need a completer rebuild of track and facilities before they can think of organizing a GP. And there is a campsite right next to it that won't allow a F1 race to take place I think...

Assen applied for F1 accreditation. It's a modern track. I think it had to be widend a bit, but Indy raced there, so it is suitable.

 

Rotterdam has some space in town, but I believe there is also a designated area for a new harbour (Maasvlakte) that is not build yet. You could setup something there. Would be a bit like the Indycar races at airports.

 

Zandvoort is impossible because of the roads. There is one way to the city, two-way, very narrow, twisting through the dunes - which are for 80 percent protected European heritage. Then the city, or rather... village. The train-station has two tracks, and the two tracks lead all the way to the city of Haarlem... again through an European heritage-dune area.

 

Rotterdam, I can see that happen...



#21 Henri Greuter

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:20

When I think about the mixed feelings within the center of Amsterdam when the Amsterdam marathon still used the Damrak-Rokin axis and the other complaints by Amsterdam citizens regarding the two major running events of the town: Dam-tot-Dam, the Amsterdam Marathon because of the inconveniences....

 

And in general, the concerns about any mega event not related with soccer, (Think about the olympics...)

 

But given what it will take to get a GP in the Netherlands, and that interestfor a GP going down once Max is no longer competitive or competing....

The heart says `Yes!`, the mind says: "not such a good idea in the long term"

had there been decent facilities already to capitalize on, then it would have been a different matter....

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 10 October 2017 - 09:20.


#22 Jbleroi

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:22

Zandvoort need a completer rebuild of track and facilities before they can think of organizing a GP. And there is a campsite right next to it that won't allow a F1 race to take place I think...

Assen applied for F1 accreditation. It's a modern track. I think it had to be widend a bit, but Indy raced there, so it is suitable.

 

Rotterdam has some space in town, but I believe there is also a designated area for a new harbour (Maasvlakte) that is not build yet. You could setup something there. Would be a bit like the Indycar races at airports.

 

assen is not suitable 

the paddock and the facilities are not big  enough. all the pit  boxes are built for motogp not f1, pit lane is too small etc etc 

and if they widen it it will **** up the Moto GP track as well 

so i really hope that they dont start messing around with assen. 



#23 SenorSjon

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:24

Given that we have a new Dutch hero in F1 I think it would be a great idea.

 

 

Sochi isn't a street track. Like Valencia, it's a permanent track in an urban setting, and that's rubbish. Street circuits that use actual streets tend to be better, like Singapore.

 

Zandvoort was good back in its heyday, but F1 cars had outgrown it somewhat. The current circuit is much shorter and tighter than the old one. I wouldn't say it's suitable.

 

Assen should be OK. It hosted Champ Car in its last year.

 

The Champ Car race had zero overtakes iirc and was quite boring. They flattened the track for cars, losing another bit of bike mojo (the amputation of the North was a major blow to the track).

 

Amsterdam:

There isn't a part that isn't under construction for whatever reason. You have trams, bus stops everywhere. Using a part of the freeway will be a nogo, you block one of the Dutch main traffic artories. And they complain a lot in Amsterdam, especially if it is not green.

 

Zandvoort:

Too old, tiny paddock, track isn't suitable for current F1.

 

Rotterdam:

could happen, but the bridges are too small and you can't have a crane there as well. A bit like the Singapore part where a Sauber stranded last race. Rotterdam has the 'advantage' of having a levelled city center during WWII (courtesy of the Germans), so its streets and main infrastructure is much wider than Amsterdam.


Edited by SenorSjon, 10 October 2017 - 09:25.


#24 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:29

The Champ Car race had zero overtakes iirc and was quite boring. They flattened the track for cars, losing another bit of bike mojo (the amputation of the North was a major blow to the track).

 

 

The changes were made before Champ Car went there.

 

But we can judge it for ourselves.

 



#25 phrank

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:36

The only realistic, but unpopular apparently, option is an updated Assen. But I think Libery is mistaken to think that because of Max' popularity cities and financers are lining up for such an event



#26 amedeofelix

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:39

Zandvoort!!!



#27 SBR

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:43

Zandvoort!!!


Zandvoort is never going to happen, the track isn't suitable to host an F1 gp and the infrastructure to the track is absolutely horrendous.

#28 amedeofelix

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:47

Zandvoort is never going to happen, the track isn't suitable to host an F1 gp and the infrastructure to the track is absolutely horrendous.

 

So what? Rebuild them then.  You gotta build facilities for a street race too.  Better to spend the money on a proper track I think.



#29 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:48

So what? Rebuild them then.  You gotta build facilities for a street race too.  Better to spend the money on a proper track I think.

 

See post 20.



#30 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:51

maxresdefault.jpg

MF2.jpg



#31 amedeofelix

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:53

See post 20.

 

Well that's a shame.  I have ZERO interest in seeing any more street races.  Street tracks are just the worst.



#32 SenorSjon

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:54

So what? Rebuild them then.  You gotta build facilities for a street race too.  Better to spend the money on a proper track I think.

 

If it is a sunny day, Zandvoort is next to impossible to reach. Combine it with a F1 race and you have traffic jams starting at the German border.



#33 Roadhouse

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:54

Great idea to race on the Erasmusbridge, guess we'll need a few divers ready to rescue drivers from the Maas (river) though.

Anyway, not gonna happen, it's too cramped in the Netherlands.

 

I've said this so many times, we just need to invade Spa when the Walloons are not looking. Races at Spa are so laughably mismanaged right now, so it would be a win-win for everyone.



#34 RandomG

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:56

Please be Amsterdam :rotfl:  :clap:



#35 amedeofelix

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 09:56

If it is a sunny day, Zandvoort is next to impossible to reach. Combine it with a F1 race and you have traffic jams starting at the German border.

 

I saw that explanation above.  So what about the Assen TT circuit?



#36 SBR

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:03

Please be Amsterdam :rotfl: :clap:


You can hardly drive your car through the centre of Amsterdam, let alone an F1 car.

#37 amedeofelix

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:04

You can hardly drive your car through the centre of Amsterdam, let alone an F1 car.

 

Floating roadway on the canals!  :p

 

Or, make it an event on Dutch bicycles!  :lol:


Edited by amedeofelix, 10 October 2017 - 10:05.


#38 SenorSjon

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:05

I saw that explanation above.  So what about the Assen TT circuit?

 

We don't want it butchered any further for cars.  :p  It is quite small because it is a bike track, adapted for cars. It had DTM (?) and ChampCar once, but if you ask anyone, they would love to have the old track back.



#39 amedeofelix

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:06

We don't want it butchered any further for cars.  :p  It is quite small because it is a bike track, adapted for cars. It had DTM (?) and ChampCar once, but if you ask anyone, they would love to have the old track back.

 

Yeah, but it's not coming back.  I read that the circuit owners are looking at F1 and think they only need modest changes to the track and facilities...



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#40 Roadhouse

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:20

Perhaps they could make a new track in Flevoland, combining it with the current RDW testtrack. Could use it for mandatory driver training and testing the rest of the year. They could even use it to test the actual fuel consumption of streetcars.

 

I think that's the only way for it to work, you can't build something for F1 (or regular racing) alone, it needs multiple purposes.



#41 phrank

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:21

Think we are almost there:

 

https://twitter.com/...686102923804673



#42 SBR

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:30

If we're having a gp here it's going to be a street circuit. The existing circuits are not up to par and the chance of someone financing the build of a new one is about 0%.
Rotterdam is the most viable option for hosting a GP. The roads are relatively wide, the city is easy to reach and can handle all the spectators coming in.
I say let's make it happen!

#43 Sash1

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:40

So what? Rebuild them then.  You gotta build facilities for a street race too.  Better to spend the money on a proper track I think.

 

Have you ever driven through Haarlem towards Zandvoort and Bloemendaal? You would have to rebuild halve the city before you manage to get any gain from widening the roads through the Dunes and on the Boulevard. When you finally manage to get there, there is no parking space whatsoever for a serious large crowd. Assen has pretty good acces roads and even that track is a bitch to get to.

Even if you manage to change Haarlem, the dunes and the Boulevard... Then you have to change the track itself. Property issues, environmental issues and so on.

By train people will say.... How many trains do you need to move 120k people between Amsterdam and Zandvoort between 6.00 and 13.00 + 16.30 and 20.00? Without disrupting the traffic to Schiphol Airport, Den Haag/Rotterdam and Den Helder? And where will they park? The current train tracks cannot deal with it. The station does not have facilities to deal with the traffic. 
 



#44 Sash1

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:43

While this looks like a nice layout, the roads are too narrow. There is hardly any parking space and the public transport is not capable of getting many people there in a short timeframe.

 

 

The only remotely possible venue in Amsterdam I could think of is just outside of the centre, in sight of the new business-center De Zuidas (but not AT the Zuidas, for heavens sake!). Perhaps there could be a track on the highway around that area, with one quick sweep pass the buildings.

 

locatie_amstelpark12.jpg

But I just can't imagine the slightly-left-wing Amsterdam political scene every condoning a race there. Rotterdam would indeed be a better bet...



#45 keksche

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:45

So no Imola or Nurburgring and instead another street race and a budget cap

 

Murica  :up:



#46 statman

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:52

Street races are the way to go, you could've read it in the Liberty topic.

 

Dutch GP

Danish GP

Vietnam GP (through the streets of Hanoi).



#47 SophieB

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:53

Have you ever driven through Haarlem towards Zandvoort and Bloemendaal? You would have to rebuild halve the city before you manage to get any gain from widening the roads through the Dunes and on the Boulevard. When you finally manage to get there, there is no parking space whatsoever for a serious large crowd. Assen has pretty good acces roads and even that track is a bitch to get to.

Even if you manage to change Haarlem, the dunes and the Boulevard... Then you have to change the track itself. Property issues, environmental issues and so on.

By train people will say.... How many trains do you need to move 120k people between Amsterdam and Zandvoort between 6.00 and 13.00 + 16.30 and 20.00? Without disrupting the traffic to Schiphol Airport, Den Haag/Rotterdam and Den Helder? And where will they park? The current train tracks cannot deal with it. The station does not have facilities to deal with the traffic. 
 

 

This makes me just want to be one of the those old timey Hollywood moguls and so I could shout stuff like God damnit, Sash1!, don't bring me problems, bring me solutions! Street circuits stink on ice - I am talking one of the the classic, instantly recognisable tracks here.  I don't care how you do it! Buy up half the city! Build a nature reserve for the snails (or whatever!) Listen, I don't care if you need to move Amsterdam itself up on the back of a flat-back truck in order to make it happen, but make it happen.

 

Get me my sand dune track back!'



#48 keksche

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 10:53

Street races are the way to go, you could've read it in the Liberty topic.

 

Dutch GP

Danish GP

Vietnam GP (through the streets of Hanoi).

I bet they are. Given what we think about Baku and Sochi  :stoned:



#49 SBR

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:14

I bet they are. Given what we think about Baku and Sochi :stoned:


Baku was pretty exciting this year. As a matter of fact, most street races on the calender are actually pretty decent. Melbourne, Canada, Singapore and Monaco are definitly not the worst races of the year. Sochi is pretty bad indeed.

#50 SenorSjon

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:21

Perhaps they could make a new track in Flevoland, combining it with the current RDW testtrack. Could use it for mandatory driver training and testing the rest of the year. They could even use it to test the actual fuel consumption of streetcars.

 

I think that's the only way for it to work, you can't build something for F1 (or regular racing) alone, it needs multiple purposes.

 

Flevoland? It is flat and featureless and you can only see windmills scattered everywhere. Roads going into Flevoland are below capacity in rush hour as it is. It is like Magny Cours or South Korea. Only advantage is, is that the Netherlands is small and a major city is not far away. I've heard talk about Maasvlakte, but that would make Valencia Street Circuit look like Monaco.