Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 4 votes

Dutch Grand Prix in 2020


  • Please log in to reply
1718 replies to this topic

#51 phrank

phrank
  • Member

  • 1,082 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:22

Baku was pretty exciting this year. As a matter of fact, most street races on the calender are actually pretty decent. Melbourne, Canada, Singapore and Monaco are definitly not the worst races of the year. Sochi is pretty bad indeed.

Baku was only slightly exciting because they could not manage to clean up a stranded car. Singapore and Monacor are just bad circuits that do not allow the full potential of a Formula 1 car.



Advertisement

#52 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 5,164 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:31

Baku was only slightly exciting because they could not manage to clean up a stranded car. Singapore and Monacor are just bad circuits that do not allow the full potential of a Formula 1 car.

 

Very much a personal opinion of course. But generally, drivers tend to love those tracks.. but hey what do the guys now that drive these cars ;).



#53 Roadhouse

Roadhouse
  • Member

  • 410 posts
  • Joined: August 16

Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:32

Have you ever driven through Haarlem towards Zandvoort and Bloemendaal? You would have to rebuild halve the city before you manage to get any gain from widening the roads through the Dunes and on the Boulevard. When you finally manage to get there, there is no parking space whatsoever for a serious large crowd. Assen has pretty good acces roads and even that track is a bitch to get to.

Even if you manage to change Haarlem, the dunes and the Boulevard... Then you have to change the track itself. Property issues, environmental issues and so on.

By train people will say.... How many trains do you need to move 120k people between Amsterdam and Zandvoort between 6.00 and 13.00 + 16.30 and 20.00? Without disrupting the traffic to Schiphol Airport, Den Haag/Rotterdam and Den Helder? And where will they park? The current train tracks cannot deal with it. The station does not have facilities to deal with the traffic. 
 

 

Moving 120k people to the track shouldn't be a problem, getting 'm back home after the race has ended is tricky though. Would require an insane amount of planning.

 

On the other hand, we can't make a bigger mess of it than they do at Spa. 



#54 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 10,973 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:36

Very much a personal opinion of course. But generally, drivers tend to love those tracks.. but hey what do the guys now that drive these cars ;).

 

The drivers also often allude to the fact that they acknowledge there's potentially a gap between how much fun a race is to be in versus how much fun it might be to watch that same race.

 

 

(Especially now they have the giant screens which seems can lead to drivers being viewers and participants at the same time, which seems a bit mad.)



#55 SBR

SBR
  • Member

  • 327 posts
  • Joined: September 17

Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:45

Baku was only slightly exciting because they could not manage to clean up a stranded car. Singapore and Monacor are just bad circuits that do not allow the full potential of a Formula 1 car.


Baku was more than that. A gp filled with incidents, 7 dnf's, a red flag, vettel playing bumper cars with Hamilton, a loose headrest and an unsuspected podium made it the most exciting gp so far this year in my opinion.
Fair point about singapore and especially monaco, they're better in qualifying then in the race.
But then again Suzuka, which is considered a classic, was pretty boring this year to because of the lack of overtaking.

#56 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 10,973 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 10 October 2017 - 11:48

We are drifting away from the Dutch GP a bit, guys. I was too, I guess.



#57 lustigson

lustigson
  • Member

  • 5,445 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 10 October 2017 - 12:08

Well, Zandvoort started out as a street circuit, perhaps that could be re-instated? ;)

 

Seriously, if there were a GP in the Netherlands, one of the 4-5 major cities could host it: Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, Utrecht or Eindhoven. 



#58 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 5,164 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 10 October 2017 - 12:09

The drivers also often allude to the fact that they acknowledge there's potentially a gap between how much fun a race is to be in versus how much fun it might be to watch that same race.

 

 

(Especially now they have the giant screens which seems can lead to drivers being viewers and participants at the same time, which seems a bit mad.)

 

The post I responded to, stated that F1 cars cannot show their full potential on tracks like Singapore or Monaco. I would assume that drivers are in a pretty good position to assess this. 

 

The question whether such tracks deliver a good show for the fans at home is a different question we were not discussing now. 



#59 Nemo1965

Nemo1965
  • Member

  • 5,469 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 10 October 2017 - 12:22

Well, Zandvoort started out as a street circuit, perhaps that could be re-instated?  ;)

 

Seriously, if there were a GP in the Netherlands, one of the 4-5 major cities could host it: Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, Utrecht or Eindhoven. 

 

Some historical background for the non-Dutch readers.

 

Amsterdam: 17th century centre, very small streets, almost always leftist/Green city-council. Cramped with tourists, Uber is called 'The New Smoking' by several, tons of 'dagjesmensen', a city center that is still reeling from the construction of the new subway (Noord-Zuidlijn), which made buildings sag, give house-owners heart-attacks and gave the city a traffic-aneurysm. The mood in the city now: let us get back to Amsterdam as it was. So left, green and yearning for the romantic old city.

 

Very, very unlikely therefore. 

 

Rotterdam: heavily bombed in the second world war, gave city-planners much more room to play with. Broad streets (for Dutch eyes), slightly right-wing city council, not cramped, has experience with the Bavaria Race Experience (inconceivable event for Amsterdam). The mood in the city: we want to be a global city.

 

Unlikely in the general sense, but 100 percent more likely than Amsterdam.

 

The Hague: One question. Why?

 

Utrecht. Still reeling from the Hoog Catherijne-trauma (big shopping-mall annex train-station) in the centre. Serious lack of money. Beating hart of the train-infrastructure in the Netherlands and in that aspect as vulnerable as mr. Glass in Unbreakable. The city-council members who would vote for a Grand Prix, will dangle from a street-lantern five minutes later.

So: no.

 

Eindhoven. Also bombed heavily in WW2 and therefore an un-Dutch infrastructure. That I can see. If someone else than Eindhoven would pay the money. And if F1 would want to go to Eindhoven. Which I doubt...

 

My advice: let the F1-bosses first offer a Grand Prix to Amsterdam. Which Amsterdam will refuse. And then Rotterdam will accept the challenge... just to spite 020, as they call their nemesis Amsterdam! :p


Edited by Nemo1965, 10 October 2017 - 12:23.


Advertisement

#60 statman

statman
  • Member

  • 4,175 posts
  • Joined: December 15

Posted 10 October 2017 - 12:38

Nobody cares about culture or history.

 

All that matters is:

* Is it good promotion for the city/will the city be mentioned heavily?

* Can we finance the event?

* Can we make the logistics work?

 

If the answers are yes, it's a go.



#61 Roadhouse

Roadhouse
  • Member

  • 410 posts
  • Joined: August 16

Posted 10 October 2017 - 12:44

Well, Zandvoort started out as a street circuit, perhaps that could be re-instated?  ;)

 

Seriously, if there were a GP in the Netherlands, one of the 4-5 major cities could host it: Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, Utrecht or Eindhoven. 

I guess it's a small step from successfully organizing Le grande depart to a F1 race. To put into perspective what a 'major' city is in the Netherlands, Utrecht has a whopping 344k inhabitants! They're actually busy making the city less accessible to cars.

 

I really think Rotterdam is the only Dutch city capable and remotely willing to organize an event like that, but still highly unlikely.

 

Flevoland? It is flat and featureless and you can only see windmills scattered everywhere. Roads going into Flevoland are below capacity in rush hour as it is. It is like Magny Cours or South Korea. Only advantage is, is that the Netherlands is small and a major city is not far away. I've heard talk about Maasvlakte, but that would make Valencia Street Circuit look like Monaco.

 

I'd say it's a fine example of Dutch engineering. It's completely below 'sea' level which is hard for those drylanders to comprehend. Just build a track without foundation, you'd get interesting height differences within a few weeks.

Maasvlakte is pretty featureless aswell (other than it being manmade like Flevoland), it's also further than you'd think. 

 

Perhaps there's an old airforce base which could be used?


Edited by Roadhouse, 10 October 2017 - 12:47.


#62 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 9,146 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 10 October 2017 - 12:50

I guess it's a small step from successfully organizing Le grande depart to a F1 race. To put into perspective what a 'major' city is in the Netherlands, Utrecht has a whopping 344k inhabitants! They're actually busy making the city less accessible to cars.

 

I really think Rotterdam is the only Dutch city capable and remotely willing to organize an event like that, but still highly unlikely.

 

 

I'd say it's a fine example of Dutch engineering. It's completely below 'sea' level which is hard for those drylanders to comprehend. Just build a track without foundation, you'd get interesting height differences within a few weeks.

Maasvlakte is pretty featureless aswell (other than it being manmade like Flevoland), it's also further than you'd think. 

 

Perhaps there's an old airforce base which could be used?

 

With regards to the final sentence; For the Dutchies;  Anyone rememberg the racs at "Welschap"?

 

Henri



#63 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 26,680 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 10 October 2017 - 12:55

If they could make it work at Zandvoort, I think that would be a triple-A brilliant plan. Would require an enormous amount of investment and the planning nous not to ruin everything that makes Zandvoort special. But the seaside location and proximity to Benelux, western Germany and parts of the UK and France tell me that if they do it well, it could become central to motor racing in northern Europe. Much like Assen has always been for fans of bike racing. If that's ever going to happen, it'll be now...

 

Street race around Rotterdam might be OK too. It's the Singapore of the North Sea, right?

 

Don't think the other options will work. Assen is relatively far away from everywhere and there is no tradition of car racing there. I bet most people who consider themselves F1 fans have barely heard of it.



#64 Muppetmad

Muppetmad
  • Member

  • 5,630 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 10 October 2017 - 12:58

Anybody who watches European Formula 3 will tell you that, at most circuits, the series produces good racing. At Zandvoort, the races are dull and there is barely any overtaking. If European F3 can't make good racing at Zandvoort, alas, I cannot see Formula 1 doing so without changing the circuit beyond recognition.



#65 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 9,472 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 10 October 2017 - 13:19

I guess it's a small step from successfully organizing Le grande depart to a F1 race. To put into perspective what a 'major' city is in the Netherlands, Utrecht has a whopping 344k inhabitants! They're actually busy making the city less accessible to cars.

 

I really think Rotterdam is the only Dutch city capable and remotely willing to organize an event like that, but still highly unlikely.

 

 

I'd say it's a fine example of Dutch engineering. It's completely below 'sea' level which is hard for those drylanders to comprehend. Just build a track without foundation, you'd get interesting height differences within a few weeks.

Maasvlakte is pretty featureless aswell (other than it being manmade like Flevoland), it's also further than you'd think. 

 

Perhaps there's an old airforce base which could be used?

 

Usually Dutch engineering doesn't stick much above ground  :rotfl:  

 

We don't have much air force (bases) around, so I don't think that is an option. If you want a track, you won't have it before 2025 with all the environmentalists going gung-ho on your plan and delaying it until the end of time. The A4 from The Hague to Rotterdam had a mssing link (7 km) which took 60+ years to make. 55 of those were spend in court, the rest planning the ridiculous amount of infrastructure work to prevent anyone seeing the damn road.

 

Anybody who watches European Formula 3 will tell you that, at most circuits, the series produces good racing. At Zandvoort, the races are dull and there is barely any overtaking. If European F3 can't make good racing at Zandvoort, alas, I cannot see Formula 1 doing so without changing the circuit beyond recognition.

 

It woud destroy the flow of the track as well.



#66 JHSingo

JHSingo
  • Member

  • 6,201 posts
  • Joined: June 13

Posted 10 October 2017 - 13:28

No more goddamn street circuits, please. They are, without fail, ****.



#67 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,081 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 10 October 2017 - 13:33

Terrible idea. These are actual cities where people live. If the millionaire drivers need another street circuit playground just put it in the backyard of some crackpot dictatorship.

Plus the costs of an F1 race are such that anyone even thinking of approving this should be voted out immediately.

#68 PedroDiCasttro

PedroDiCasttro
  • Member

  • 1,388 posts
  • Joined: July 15

Posted 10 October 2017 - 13:34

The question is: which GP are they going to drop to give way for this Dutch GP? 

 

If it's one of the classical circuits I'm going to be pissed. It better be Baku, Sochi or whatever.



#69 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 33,423 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 10 October 2017 - 13:36

Well, Zandvoort started out as a street circuit, perhaps that could be re-instated?  ;)

 

Seriously, if there were a GP in the Netherlands, one of the 4-5 major cities could host it: Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, Utrecht or Eindhoven. 

As planning permission was refused in 1946 for a circuit at Zeist, is Utrecht that likely?  ;)



#70 kumo7

kumo7
  • Member

  • 1,749 posts
  • Joined: May 15

Posted 10 October 2017 - 13:49

Dutch do not want to pay too much.

Jan Peter Balkenende is from Rotterdam.

Both Roterdam and Amsterdam has extensive street car network, even on the Rotterdam bridge.

Rotterdam is poorer than Amsterdam

 

 

So perhaps Eindhoven. They have Philips and new high tech companies. But the question is, if the attempt can convince local government and the parliament.

 

ING stopped supporting Formula 1 not only because there was this crash gate but because the premier of the time loves Football above F1.



#71 phrank

phrank
  • Member

  • 1,082 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 10 October 2017 - 14:06

Order of probability:

TT Circuit Assen 10%

New dedicated circuit (Flevoland) 2%

Rotterdam industrial area 1%

Endhoven 0,5%

Amsterdam 0%

 

Never gonna happen 86,5%



#72 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,081 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 10 October 2017 - 14:21

If they could make it work at Zandvoort, I think that would be a triple-A brilliant plan. Would require an enormous amount of investment and the planning nous not to ruin everything that makes Zandvoort special. But the seaside location and proximity to Benelux, western Germany and parts of the UK and France tell me that if they do it well, it could become central to motor racing in northern Europe.

 

It's hard enough for people in Holland - not even the Netherlands - to get to Zandvoort when there's a small event at the circuit. The main road into the town is one lane wide, there's no room for parking, and even a Historical Grand Prix with a bunch of old F1 cars will have cars parked double throughout the town.

 

If you want infrastructure to handle 200,000+ people you'd need to build new train stations, probably even a highway, and endless strips of parking spaces - which simply isn't going to happen.

 

That's before you even consider that for F1 racing the circuit is way too small, narrow, constrained by its neighbours, and has facilities straight out of the 1970s. Zandvoort is in the past. It's going to host no more F1 races than Reims is.



#73 ArrowsLivery

ArrowsLivery
  • Member

  • 2,836 posts
  • Joined: March 17

Posted 10 October 2017 - 14:28

Street tracks are usually boring, so I would rather not see more joining the calendar.

Edited by ArrowsLivery, 10 October 2017 - 14:30.


#74 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 17,646 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 10 October 2017 - 14:33

How did Zandvoort cope back when it did host the Grand Prix? Surely it could handle 200,000 people back then? Or did nobody turn up to watch?

#75 RA2

RA2
  • Member

  • 1,130 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 10 October 2017 - 14:56

Have you ever driven through Haarlem towards Zandvoort and Bloemendaal? You would have to rebuild halve the city before you manage to get any gain from widening the roads through the Dunes and on the Boulevard. When you finally manage to get there, there is no parking space whatsoever for a serious large crowd. Assen has pretty good acces roads and even that track is a bitch to get to.

Even if you manage to change Haarlem, the dunes and the Boulevard... Then you have to change the track itself. Property issues, environmental issues and so on.

By train people will say.... How many trains do you need to move 120k people between Amsterdam and Zandvoort between 6.00 and 13.00 + 16.30 and 20.00? Without disrupting the traffic to Schiphol Airport, Den Haag/Rotterdam and Den Helder? And where will they park? The current train tracks cannot deal with it. The station does not have facilities to deal with the traffic. 
 

 

 

So how does Monaco work?

 

Keeping with the theme of environmental friendly, access to circuit will be only through buses, train or walk from Harlem 


Edited by RA2, 10 October 2017 - 15:01.


#76 Rob29

Rob29
  • Member

  • 3,528 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 10 October 2017 - 15:27

No more goddamn street circuits, please. They are, without fail, ****.

No more autodromes please-all events intending to attract the public should be held in the centre of cities :clap:



#77 Casey

Casey
  • Member

  • 842 posts
  • Joined: June 16

Posted 10 October 2017 - 15:30

Unlikely but if it´s going to happen it´s going to be in Rotterdam , they already did the city racing event multiple times for a huge crowd with succes and it´s not the fist time they talk about a real F1 race in Rotterdam .

Roof terras and window places can be ordered trough me via PM if it comes to that  :smoking:



#78 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 5,164 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 10 October 2017 - 15:42

Dutch national news agency is quick with their take on the news, including some interesting people who provide their input:

 

https://nos.nl/artik...hter-staat.html

 

Google translation:

[quote]




'Formula 1 around The Kuip or in Amsterdam? If everybody finds out "



TODAY, 15:04

xxl.jpg

Formula 1 driver Max Verstappen in action during a demontration in Rotterdam ANP


"Let the start or finish take place in the new Kuip. Then you have 63,000 paying spectators." Herman Vaanholt sees it as such: Max Verstappen tearing in a Formula One-bolide by Rotterdam. Whether such a grand prix is ​​also feasible is a second.

"On the Maasvlakte can be geracet. If you want to have a grand prix in Rotterdam, you have to take that into the plans around the new Kuip. That district will be on the run in the next few years," says the entrepreneur in the past was closely involved with 'Monaco on the Meuse' and City Racing in Rotterdam . "But it was Formula One demonstrations, which is a lot different from a real race."


Liberty Media

Vaanholt responds to the news that spread well-entered motorsport.com. Liberty Media, owner of Formula 1, has visited the Netherlands and looked for a race race in Rotterdam or Amsterdam, according to motorsport.com.



xxl.jpg

Atmosphere image of City Racing in Rotterdam in 2011 ANP


Liberty Media took over the rights of Formula 1 at the end of 2016 from Brit Bernie Ecclestone. The Americans immediately wanted to see more spectacles in the king's class of motor sports.

There were few GPs far outside the heart of bustling cities like Malaysia, and more street races were to be found in world cities (for example, New York, Las Vegas). The underlying thought remains that worthy of money needs to be earned to recoup the billion investment.









In Amsterdam? Prima maar dan wel in Amsterdam Beach waar een mooi circuit ligt en niet in de binnenstad van Amsterdam https://twitter.com/at5/status/917676581761552384 



 

 


According to the Americans, a street race in Amsterdam or Rotterdam would also fit into those plans. In Rotterdam, they do not know anything and they are waiting for a spokesman to see if the Formula 1 corner is getting a bit concrete.


Amsterdam Beach

Governor Eric van de Burg of Amsterdam says to welcome a grand prix in the Netherlands, but then to 'Amsterdam Beach', or the Zandvoort circuit. "And not in the inner city," he tweets.

Former Formula 1 driver Jan Lammers would like to return to the F1 calendar, and most preferably in Zandvoort. There was the last Formula 1 race in 1985.


History

"If Liberty Media chooses a street race in Amsterdam or Rotterdam, it goes beyond the history, which lies on Zandvoort," says Lammers, who admits by looking at colored glasses. The circuit is in his backyard, he has business interests.

Lammers believes it is inconvenient to invest in a temporary circuit in Amsterdam or Rotterdam, given the cost of about 100 million euros. "The facilities are already in Zandvoort, and I would like to make it easier to do such an investment, so all car racing matters. With a temporary circuit, you devalue Formula 1. The requirements for such an event , then lower. It's a bit the concept of the Indycar races, which Liberty Media has in mind. "



Formula 1 specialist Louis Dekker of the NOS thinks that organizing a street race in the Netherlands might be possible. "Everyone, from rural politics to business, will find out. In Singapore, financially everything was possible and it was regulated. Many parties will have to work together. A temporary street circuit is in any case easier to operate than a fixed circuit."


Goudhaantje

In the background, it is obvious that the Netherlands has a goldfish in possession of Max Verstappen. "Problems like Zandvoort and Assen, both of whom would like it, is that it takes years for those circuits to be ready to receive Formula 1. If you want to count on the success of Max Verstappen, this can be a lot faster with a street circuit. There is strong competition. "

In Copenhagen, they seem to be far from having a Formula 1 race through the city. Politics and business seem to be willing to cope with the cost of 100 million. The Danes are gambling by 2020. "Liberty Media has acknowledged that the heart of Formula 1 sports is in Europe. And multinational Heineken as a major sponsor in Formula 1 may be a benefit to the Netherlands," said Dekker.


'Rotterdam dares'

"In Rotterdam, after the turn of the century, there was a political will to organize the event. We did not ask for money," said Vaanholt. "The slogan was" daring Rotterdam "at that time and the city would become the European sports city. It was a great match for us." It was a boyhood dream for us. "

[quote]



#79 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 9,146 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 10 October 2017 - 16:49

How did Zandvoort cope back when it did host the Grand Prix? Surely it could handle 200,000 people back then? Or did nobody turn up to watch?

 

Zandvoort would have been luck to have 200.000 people in three days combined! That would have earned them the money they needed to retain the contract....

I recall something about 80.000 spectators at its very best in those final years. But if anyone has better data available?

That were numbers that could be dealt with but you still needed patience. I talk about using the train from Amsterdam Central Station to Zandvoort and then walk to the track.

Back then, I still felt it to be fun, to be among so many race fans...

 

 

Henri



Advertisement

#80 Nemo1965

Nemo1965
  • Member

  • 5,469 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 10 October 2017 - 17:14

I think that, as with Paris, the political circumstances in the Netherlands have to be just right. When Paris had a right-wing mayor (well, for France right-wing, France's right is America's hard left!) and a French prime-minister, the plans for a Grand Prix in the city really got flight. Then there was an excellent idea for a Grand Prix in Disneyland Paris... then Paris got another mayor, there was a socialist prime-minister, and poof... now you see tons of bikes riding... in Paris!

 

The Netherlands is a welfare-state, not a banana-republic. The politicians in these countries have to appease too many groups of voters, especially in the cities. Again, the only political 'sphere' fitting for F1 is Rotterdam, IMHO.



#81 SonJR

SonJR
  • Member

  • 441 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 10 October 2017 - 18:03

Can't claim to be an expert on Dutch infrastructure, but Amsterdam with its small near-medieval streets, canals everywhere (how's that for no run off? :drunk: ) and sagging soil seems a long shot. I also don't see this happening near the business district, which kinda of defeats the purpose due to its indistinguishable look anyways.

 

Rotterdam looks better, but I think the impact on the surrounding area - especially if you're talking about it impacting the biggest harbor in Europe - for a good 3 to 4 weeks, I'd put some question marks behind that too. As for moving further into the city, there's bound to be the expected complaints from citizens, (small) businesses and 'the greens'.

 

Both, imho, face some serious logistical challenges in terms of dealing with the crowds. Not just in terms of their stays, but also transport. The railway system would require far more trains for this event and the highways are normally already heavily congested. And should you get there, good luck finding a parking space! Especially in Amsterdam.

 

Would be interesting to see who would foot the bill as well. So far, Zandvoort and Assen have had little success in finding backers or investors to realize their ambitions or getting on the F1 calendar. Copenhagen might be a good case study for the Netherlands (although that track design looks horrendous :rolleyes: )


Edited by SonJR, 10 October 2017 - 18:03.


#82 DutchQuicksilver

DutchQuicksilver
  • Member

  • 4,429 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 10 October 2017 - 18:15

God no, a street race wouldn’t work. We have two great circuits, whom with some adjustments, could host an F1 race.

#83 fastest

fastest
  • Member

  • 508 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 10 October 2017 - 19:34

So Liberty Media comes to YOU and ASKS you if you want to host a F1 GP, you would jump on the opportunity right? I mean this is a gift from heaven, there are plenty of cities who would commit a crime to be granted a F1 GP. Surely you would understand the marketing value for your city, especially if you're the "Port of Europe". Sadly, not so in Holland. Alderman Adriaan Visser of Rotterdam is already talking about noise and environmental pollution. I'm going to email alderman Visser tomorrow, because I don't think he fully understands the gift that has just fallen into his lap.



#84 fastest

fastest
  • Member

  • 508 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 10 October 2017 - 19:42

God no, a street race wouldn’t work. We have two great circuits, whom with some adjustments, could host an F1 race.

 

A street race was always going to be the best option. Zandvoort looks like the race circuit of Tsjernobyl. Seriously it looks like they havent painted the curbstones since the last GP in 1985. Also Zandvoort think that protec barriers are already a big investment. If they think protec barriers are a big investment then that doesn't bode well for the rest of their plans. Having Zandvoort on the calender without a PROPER renovation would make us the laughing stock of Europe. As for Assen... Assen should just stick to bikes, they mutilated their track already once. Cathedral of speed?? Not anymore, that's Mugello now. So Rotterdam would be the best option, a GP in downtown Amsterdam is litterally impossible.



#85 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,081 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 10 October 2017 - 19:54

Can't claim to be an expert on Dutch infrastructure, but Amsterdam with its small near-medieval streets, canals everywhere (how's that for no run off? :drunk: ) and sagging soil seems a long shot. I also don't see this happening near the business district, which kinda of defeats the purpose due to its indistinguishable look anyways.
 
Rotterdam looks better, but I think the impact on the surrounding area - especially if you're talking about it impacting the biggest harbor in Europe - for a good 3 to 4 weeks, I'd put some question marks behind that too. As for moving further into the city, there's bound to be the expected complaints from citizens, (small) businesses and 'the greens'.

An F1 race in the center of Amsterdam is impossible. It's just not going to happen.

 

There are only a few main streets for modern traffic (and even these are being made more narrow to better service public transport and bikes). You might get somewhere if you move outside the old city, but then you're looking at an incredibly dull scenery that could be in just about every other European or North-American town.

 

If F1 is to come to the Netherlands for a street race, Rotterdam is the only option. Concerns about the harbour there aren't really relevant. The main harbour is 25km+ outside the city and infrastructure planning has been aimed at keeping that traffic outside the city for 100+ years.
 

So Liberty Media comes to YOU and ASKS you if you want to host a F1 GP, you would jump on the opportunity right? I mean this is a gift from heaven, there are plenty of cities who would commit a crime to be granted a F1 GP. Surely you would understand the marketing value for your city, especially if you're the "Port of Europe".

 

Ships come to Rotterdam because it makes sense from a business perspective, not because of some sporting or cultural event. If other options make themselves more interesting they'd stop coming to Rotterdam before anyone can say "but what about F1?!".

 

Let the Bahrains and Azerbaijans of the world pay F1 its ridiculous fees. Rotterdam - of all places - has many more pressing issues.



#86 fastest

fastest
  • Member

  • 508 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 10 October 2017 - 20:07

An F1 race in the center of Amsterdam is impossible. It's just not going to happen.

 

There are only a few main streets for modern traffic (and even these are being made more narrow to better service public transport and bikes). You might get somewhere if you move outside the old city, but then you're looking at an incredibly dull scenery that could be in just about every other European or North-American town.

 

If F1 is to come to the Netherlands for a street race, Rotterdam is the only option. Concerns about the harbour there aren't really relevant. The main harbour is 25km+ outside the city and infrastructure planning has been aimed at keeping that traffic outside the city for 100+ years.
 

 

Ships come to Rotterdam because it makes sense from a business perspective, not because of some sporting or cultural event. If other options make themselves more interesting they'd stop coming to Rotterdam before anyone can say "but what about F1?!".

 

Let the Bahrains and Azerbaijans of the world pay F1 its ridiculous fees. Rotterdam - of all places - has many more pressing issues.

 

 

What I am saying is, that from a business and marketing perspective, it makes more sense for Rotterdam to host a GP then it does for lets say Zandvoort and Assen. They are a small town and a village. Why do you think Singapore hosted a GP? Marketing. It also happens that Singapore, like Rotterdam, is a major international port.

 

 



#87 AmonGods

AmonGods
  • Member

  • 644 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 10 October 2017 - 20:08

Baku was more than that. A gp filled with incidents, 7 dnf's, a red flag, vettel playing bumper cars with Hamilton, a loose headrest and an unsuspected podium made it the most exciting gp so far this year in my opinion.
Fair point about singapore and especially monaco, they're better in qualifying then in the race.
But then again Suzuka, which is considered a classic, was pretty boring this year to because of the lack of overtaking.

 

Vettel playing bumper cars with Lewis, the loose headrest and the unsuspected podium had nothing to do with the track. I dont remember much from 2016 Baku race for example.

Usually, streat races are interesting if crashes/safety cars happen, but this is more like chaos, not good racing. You can have this kind of race once in a few years, but otherwise streat races are rather dull.



#88 superden

superden
  • Member

  • 4,185 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 10 October 2017 - 20:10

Valencia 2.0

#89 Lipp

Lipp
  • Member

  • 1,408 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 10 October 2017 - 20:13

As planning permission was refused in 1946 for a circuit at Zeist, is Utrecht that likely?  ;)

I live in Zeist and indeed that area had the plan to create a circuit quite close to where I live. I had heard my grandfather talk about it when I was young, he also told me some stories about Carel Godin-De Beaufort as he knew him personally.

 

But a GP in the Netherlands, is not going to happen any more I think.

 

The only long-shot would be Rotterdam.


Edited by Lipp, 10 October 2017 - 20:15.


#90 thelondonphoto

thelondonphoto
  • New Member

  • 4 posts
  • Joined: October 17

Posted 10 October 2017 - 20:21

I think it's a mistake to build a flat, slow and boring street circuit when you have one of the best circuits of all-time (Zandvoort) just a few miles away.....crazy.  Just modernise the pits, extend the paddock and lengthen the lap a bit, all are possible at Zandvoort.  If Liberty want street curcuits why not do away with Monza and have it on the streets of Milan and why not do-away with SPA and have it on the streets of Brussels.....because it'd be awful!



#91 thelondonphoto

thelondonphoto
  • New Member

  • 4 posts
  • Joined: October 17

Posted 10 October 2017 - 20:35

Zandvoort would have been luck to have 200.000 people in three days combined! That would have earned them the money they needed to retain the contract....

I recall something about 80.000 spectators at its very best in those final years. But if anyone has better data available?

That were numbers that could be dealt with but you still needed patience. I talk about using the train from Amsterdam Central Station to Zandvoort and then walk to the track.

Back then, I still felt it to be fun, to be among so many race fans...

 

 

Henri

Just bus the spectators in to Zandvoort, they don't need to build train stations, car parks or anything.  Silverstone has a park-and-ride system which works very well.  A street circuit would be terrible though, to waste Zandvoort like that would be a crime!  It just needs big investment and a slightly longer lap, lengthen the main straight and re-create the overtaking into Tarzan.  Anything is possible and should be considered.....just don't involve Tilke!     



#92 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 19,593 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 10 October 2017 - 20:36

We need less street races, not more.

 

:cool:



#93 fastest

fastest
  • Member

  • 508 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 10 October 2017 - 20:37

I think it's a mistake to build a flat, slow and boring street circuit when you have one of the best circuits of all-time (Zandvoort) just a few miles away.....crazy.  Just modernise the pits, extend the paddock and lengthen the lap a bit, all are possible at Zandvoort.  If Liberty want street curcuits why not do away with Monza and have it on the streets of Milan and why not do-away with SPA and have it on the streets of Brussels.....because it'd be awful!

 

Zandvoort doesn't want to invest. They think protech barriers, temporary stands and new tarmac is enough to court Liberty Media. They are also not willing to make changes to the layout. In Holland we say "Zandvoort wil voor een dubbeltje op de voorste rij zitten". We would be the laughing stock on the F1 calendar with Zandvoort in its current condition. A lot has to change and big investments have to made to make Zandvoort a viable option.



#94 redreni

redreni
  • Member

  • 4,479 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 10 October 2017 - 20:43

Zandvoort is never going to happen, the track isn't suitable to host an F1 gp and the infrastructure to the track is absolutely horrendous.

 

Not just to and from the track. Also at the track. There's one grandstand and, other than that, no spectator facilities whatsoever (unless you include the dunes, which to be fair do provide some decent lines of sight around the track).

 

I wouldn't want it to happen, though, as they'd need to do a lot of work on the track itself. The run off in a number of places, including on the exit of Luyendijk, is appalling.

 

As for street races, Amsterdam sounds like a disaster. Rotterdam sounds even less glamorous than Valencia. Maybe there is somewhere else? I went to Haarlem recently and it was very picturesque, but the roads didn't look especially suitable. I don't know the Netherlands well enough to suggest anywhere else.

 

To be honest, even if I were a Dutch Verstappen fan, I would prefer to travel to Spa than get a crap view of one corner on a pancake-flat street course.



#95 Jbleroi

Jbleroi
  • Member

  • 832 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 10 October 2017 - 20:46




What I am saying is, that from a business and marketing perspective, it makes more sense for Rotterdam to host a GP then it does for lets say Zandvoort and Assen. They are a small town and a village. Why do you think Singapore hosted a GP? Marketing. It also happens that Singapore, like Rotterdam, is a major international port.

Yeah and what about silverstone, hockenheim, spa, suzuka, Paul ricard and red bull ring? they are all situated in the middle of nowhere.
Assen is one of the most legendary circuits on the mgp calendar and zandvoort is a suburb of Amsterdam and a legendary circuit of the past so your comment doesnt make any sense. If (big if) a gp in the netherlands is going to take place it is going to be a national event and not a regional/local splash the cash happening, Rotterdam or amsterdam will face bankruptcy if they organize one gp by themselves. And the netherlands is so small that everything is within commuting distance, even Spa is not that far away............

This was just a trial ballon released by liberty and I dont think it will ever happen because spa will veto the **** out of it...

Edited by Jbleroi, 10 October 2017 - 20:53.


#96 fastest

fastest
  • Member

  • 508 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 10 October 2017 - 20:57

Yeah and what about silverstone, hockenheim, spa, suzuka, Paul ricard and red bull ring? they are all situated in the middle of nowhere.
Assen is one of the most legendary circuits on the mgp calendar and zandvoort is a suburb of Amsterdam and a legendary circuit of the past so your comment doesnt make any sense. If (big if) a gp in the netherlands is going to take place it is going to be a national event and not a regional/local splash the cash happening, Rotterdam or amsterdam will face bankruptcy if they organize one gp by themselves. And the netherlands is so small that everything is within commuting distance, even Spa is not that far away............

 

Silverstone, Hockenheim en Spa (untill the dutch helped financing the Belgium GP) all had/have financial issues. Suzuka is owned by Honda. The Red Bull ring is owned by Red Bull. But yes, you can host a GP about anywhere, that's not the point. All I'm saying is it makes more sense for Rotterdam.For Rotterdam there is a bigger picture, a bigger economic incentive than just filling the local hotels. We can agree to disagree ofcourse.


Edited by fastest, 10 October 2017 - 21:10.


#97 Jbleroi

Jbleroi
  • Member

  • 832 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 10 October 2017 - 21:15

Silverstone, Hockenheim en Spa (untill the dutch helped financing the Belgium GP) all had/have financial issues. Suzuka is owned by Honda. The Red Bull ring is owned by Red Bull. But yes, you can host a GP about anywhere, that's not the point. All I'm saying is it makes more sense for Rotterdam.For Rotterdam there is a bigger picture, a bigger economic incentive then just filling the local hotels. We can agree to disagree ofcourse.

This has nothing to do with “agree to disagree” who is going to finance the gp of rotterdam? The city council..... or is there a local car manufacturer or a local mateschitz or another oligarch / dictator who wants to help on the financial side. So why does it make more sense for rotterdam to host it above zandvoort or somewhere else..
And it was mainly because of the crazy demands and contracts from fom that these circuits/organizers ran into financial troubles.

Edited by Jbleroi, 10 October 2017 - 21:17.


#98 Ivanhoe

Ivanhoe
  • Member

  • 6,040 posts
  • Joined: November 15

Posted 10 October 2017 - 21:17

zandvoort is a suburb of Amsterdam


Nah, not really.

#99 Jbleroi

Jbleroi
  • Member

  • 832 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 10 October 2017 - 21:23

Nah, not really.


Yes it is,... it is only a 30min train ride from amsterdam. And for most big cities that will count as a suburb

Advertisement

#100 fastest

fastest
  • Member

  • 508 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 10 October 2017 - 21:24

This has nothing to do with “agree to disagree” who is going to finance the gp of rotterdam? The city council..... or is there a local car manufacturer or a local mateschitz or another oligarch / dictator who wants to help on the financial side. So why does it make more sense for rotterdam to host it above zandvoort or somewhere else..
And it was mainly because of the crazy demands and contracts from fom that these circuits/organizers ran into financial troubles.

 

I fully agree with the last bit of your post. Shameless greed has ruined the sport for organizers in Europe. No argument there.