20 replies to this topic

[oldtransamdriver]

Just read this story by Norris McDonald  Sept. 23 in the Toronto Star

I'm sure I was there but don't remember much this confusing race.

 

Robert Barg

[Tim Murray]

Here’s the link:

https://www.google.c...-of-canada.html

[D28]

Just read this story by Norris McDonald  Sept. 23 in the Toronto Star

I'm sure I was there but don't remember much this confusing race.

 

Robert Barg

Think we need a link: see 

 

https://www.thestar....-of-canada.html

 

Was also present, but had no idea who might have won, will review Gerald Donaldson's report again tonight.

[Porsche718]

What a great story! Seems a lovely, unassuming guy

[Gary C]

Another thumbs up to Howden for this one.

[Mallory Dan]

Brilliant stuff. Howden signed my copy of his, fantastic, book a couple of years ago. 

[RA Historian]

I was at this race and was as confused as all of the spectators were. Things were going along well until the pace car came out. It picked up Ganley, sowing fear and confusion far and wide in the spectator areas. We all knew that was wrong, but with all the pit stops going on, did not have a clue as to who the actual leader may have been. As the race progressed we noted the rapid ascent through the field of Emerson Fittipaldi, and thus assumed that he had won the race. As we walked from Moss Corner to our car which was near the S/F line, the PA, when we could hear it, finally said that Peter Revson won. This was a surprise and I had to wait a couple weeks until Competition Press and Autoweek arrived in order to get some idea as to what happened.

 

Tom

[Tim Murray]

Here’s an earlier thread on the race:

Canadian GP 1973

[D28]

Gerald Donaldson's report confirms that Ganley did drive an inspired race. He says that if the organizers said he was leader, he might as well drive like one and .."held Fittipaldi and Stewart at bay in a most impressive manner for eight laps at speeds 3 seconds a lap quicker than his practice times".Afterward the New Zealander was moved to say "I've never driven so hard in my life". Ganley qualified 25th and by the Cevert-Scheckter collision on lap 33, had moved into the top 10. Most people in the pits thought Fittipaldi was in front at the end, certainly Chapman did, so they would agree with Ganley on this. Whether he actually was 3rd or not, no one can say for sure now, but he might well have been. While those in the pit area had some communications, out on the circuit at Corner 5 (where RA and I  were), people had  no idea.  There could not have been radio communication from race control to the pace car either. The first appearance of the pace car in F1 indicated some wrinkles to be ironed out..

[Michael Ferner]

With all due respect for Howden's feelings after such a race, and in consideration of what definitely was a tremendously good race that he drove, this is still a load of BS. I've done a fair bit of research into what really happened that day, and I've come to the conclusion that the official results and lap chart are, if perhaps not 100 % watertight, still the closest thing to the "truth" available. Ganley certainly never led the race, and most definitely not after his pit stop when he was way down the field, out of the top ten or even fifteen, and more than two laps behind the leader. Don't forget that Beltoise started the race on intermediates, and was never headed by a slick-shod car until his pit stop during the pace car sequence, when through the incorrect placing of same only Oliver and Revson went ahead. Fittipaldi was the real bad luck hero, as he was caught behind the pace car when still on the lead lap, and should have been allowed to close up on the three leaders, and pass Beltoise while he was at the pits. Emmo made up with a gutsy drive that took him past all but Revson. Ganley was also handicapped by the pace car, but was almost two laps down again at the end - never in contention for the win.

[DCapps]

I was there and tried to keep a lap chart as was my usual practice, but the thing got waterlogged and then the safety car and then this and then that so at one point I was ready to accept damn near anybody as the winner, although it seemed to be either Revson or Fittipaldi or Oliver in about that order -- or was it Oliver, Revson, Fittipaldi or maybe Fittipaldi, Oliver, Revson? It was a mess! Generally, I could usually sort out even the biggest wad on a road course, but this was a complete shambles since I knew that Howden Ganley sure as hell wasn't the leader! Later, we were able to reconstruct enough to think that it was Revson after all, but....

 

As in the case with several others here commenting on the race, I was there and keeping a lap chart. Between the pace car confusion, the pit stops, and the rain, to say nothing of myself and those I was with all seeming to have slightly different ideas regarding the standings as a result, that it was either Revson or Fittipaldi or perhaps Oliver seemed to be the consensus, although in what order was a good question. I do remember being impressed by Ganley seeming to really perk up after the pace car picked him up, but I never thought that he was the leader, being either one or two laps down as I recall, maybe at the end of the lead lap at best. Despite my lap chart being wet and even parts water-logged, I think that it was pretty close to the final "official" results for the most part, leaning towards Revson, but thinking it could very probably Fittipaldi, who was flying at the end. At the 1970 Road Atlanta Can Am, when everyone else around me was confused, I knew that it was -- however improbable it seemed at the time -- Tony Dean in the lead. Plus, I had done scoring in NASCAR GN events, which is not for the faint of heart, and made very few errors in literally hundreds and hundreds of laps.

 

All this said, I would have been delighted for Ganley to win the race. However, from the best of my memory I do not think I ever had him in the top three or four, so a third place would have been a shock more than a surprise. I no longer have the lap chart, but fifth, sixth, seventh, something like that sounds right. Ganley is one of those that I spoke with briefly eons ago and simply liked because he was a Nice Guy. No airs, the sort of person that seemed to have a good head on his shoulders and seemed to enjoy being in The Show for all the Right Reasons. He seemed to be someone you could actually have a conversation with, which his later life certainly appears to have confirmed.

[PCC]

I was there too, but not keeping a lapchart (I was barely 12 years old). But I was in the announcing booth in the tower, in very close proximity to a couple of seasoned chart-keepers. One was Mike Wall, who did the charts for the tower announcer (my dad). The other was Eve While, who quietly and competently sat outside the announcing booth at every race and kept her own chart. I well remember the chaos - there was simply no one who had a lot of experience with waves of cars making pit stops, and madness reigned. But from my recollection, neither had Ganley leading the race at any time, and both had Fittipaldi winning it. In fact, among everyone but the officials, Fittipaldi was the overwhelming consensus at the time. That doesn't mean it's correct, but I would hesitate to ignore the consensus among those who were there that what they saw and what the officials declared did not match.

[john winfield]

Interesting posts. Thanks. For the organisers it must have been a nightmare.

 

Slightly OT, but did lap charting and timing remain manual throughout the early 1970s? I ask because I can remember being present at two British races where I wondered how the hell anyone kept track. Neither involved a safety car - probably the confusing element at Mosport - but both involved changing weather. The 1972 Brands Hatch Victory Race had plenty of tyre changes, and wildly fluctuating tyre performance, as cars stayed out on inappropriate rubber. And even more complicated was the 1975 British GP at Silverstone; some drivers making multiple stops, some stops running like clockwork, others not quite so smooth. At Silverstone, was everything monitored visually from the tower on the outside of Woodcote? Or was there a timekeeper's box on the inside, by the pit lane entry? And who kept an eye on who left the pits and when?

[Dave Ware]

There's a good article in the 1976 program for the Grand Prix entitled "Timing the Grand Prix."  Timing was still manual at this point, using 45 people from the Canadian Timing Association and equipment from Bulova, an unspecified number of their battery operated Sports Timers.  

One gem from the article:

"The official timers using their system of five inputs plus checking were faultless when it came to official results for they revealed that Revson passed Fittipaldi during his stop."

The article describes a delay in scoring, in which one person records the passage of cars past the start finish line, and another person transfers the numbers to a lap chart.  This delay is given as the cause for not knowing who was leading when the pace car went out.  Timing and scoring coordinator Steve Wegg said that if they had had another minute they would have known who was leading.

 

I tend to believe people when they tell me something.  The article is full of confidence in the methods of scoring (though they did make a change after '73) and in the results of that race.  Just responding to criticism or covering up?  Is the glass half full or half empty?  (If we're talking beer, I prefer a glass that is half-full, please.)

 

I don't do any of the imageshack stuff.  Been meaning to get around to it; there are a few things I wouldn't mind posting.  If anyone wants this article I can scan it and email, then you can either post it if that's not a copyright violation or link to it, if that's the way around the copyright stuff.  

[Dave Ware]

Now I found the article I was looking for.  It is in the 1974 Grand Prix program and is titled "Mosport Goes Computer."  It describes the use of a 2mb IBM system/370 168 computer.  The track worked with Computer Systems Ltd. in Ottawa.  Typewritter-like keyboards called Vucoms were installed in the Bulova timing center and the Player's Press Tower.  Lap times were entered in the Vucoms in the scoring centre and transmitted instantly to the aforementioned IBM in Ottawa.  The IBM would send the results to the Vucom in the press tower.  The IBM also provided the race results.

 

Yet in '76 they were not using this system; they were using the battery powered Bulova thingies..  Too expensive perhaps.  

[Michael Ferner]

I don't do any of the imageshack stuff.  Been meaning to get around to it; there are a few things I wouldn't mind posting.  If anyone wants this article I can scan it and email, then you can either post it if that's not a copyright violation or link to it, if that's the way around the copyright stuff.

Dave, I'd be interested in reading the article. Not sure whether I'll be able to post it - I used to, but my last attempt at posting a picture failed miserably! I'll send you my email address per PM.

[ReWind]

(Non-human) computers at Mosport in the 1970s?
Remember this mess.

[MCS]

Interesting interview with Ganley, but do we know what Emerson Fittipaldi and Jackie Oliver think about it all these years on?  Moreover, did anybody capture Peter Revson's thoughts...?

 

So much information missing.  Depressing.

[FLB]

Moreover, did anybody capture Peter Revson's thoughts...?

 

So much information missing.  Depressing.

From what I remember in Gerry Donaldson's report, Revvie's opinion was of the 'Who am I to argue with the result?' variety.

[DCapps]

Interesting interview with Ganley, but do we know what Emerson Fittipaldi and Jackie Oliver think about it all these years on?  Moreover, did anybody capture Peter Revson's thoughts...?

 

So much information missing.  Depressing.

 

Try being a historian sometime....

[D28]

From what I remember in Gerry Donaldson's report, Revvie's opinion was of the 'Who am I to argue with the result?' variety.

No F1 driver worth his salt is going to look a gift horse like that in the mouth. However Donaldson does quote Revson as explaining how he got ahead of Fittipaldi with a much quicker tire change, "up to half a minute longer than mine". As for Oliver, Revson said The "pace car "allowed the cars to close up and I passed him soon after we returned to speed. I wouldn't have caught without the pace car, but there's no doubt in my mind I finished first".  I think Revson is quoted elsewhere as saying Eppie was his favourite Pace car pilot, Still  the blame for the mistake in picking up the wrong leader must rest with the officials and perhaps Peter Macintosh, not the driver.

Edited by D28, 21 October 2017 - 21:46.