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VW to return to Pikes Peak with an EV


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#1 Vielleicht

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 22:20

Volkswagen building new electric car for 2018 Pikes Peak run

76ed88c8aa2783b701073e53709e33ac.jpg

 

Honestly find this rather interesting - VW to enter Pikes Peak in 2018 with an EV.

 

Outright record is held by Sebastien Loeb at 8m13.878s in the Peugeot 208 T16

 

Electric record is held by Rhys Millen at 8m57.118s in the e0 PP100.

 

With VW on a mission to rebuild their image in an EV light after the emissions scandal it might be interesting to see how fast they can get this thing to go...



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#2 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 22:31

 

 

With VW on a mission to rebuild their image in an EV light after the emissions scandal it might be interesting to see how fast they can get this thing to go...

 

 

Very fast I imagine!

 

It is such a shame F1 isn't pushing battery tech along with 950bhp electric monsters that can do 305km on one charge!!  :eek:

 

A hill climb is very good, Toyota and others ran EVs too, but the range is small compared to that of a Grand Prix vehicle.

 

F1 should really get with the times and focus on fast, powerful EVs unlike those slow Formula E cars....



#3 CountDooku

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 22:32

That’s if anyone will sell them the cobalt to build the thing.

https://www.ft.com/c...b9-abaa44b1e130

#4 Nonesuch

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 22:42

Sounds like a good challenge. :up:

 

It is such a shame F1 isn't pushing battery tech along with 950bhp electric monsters that can do 305km on one charge!!  :eek:

 

And some people call F1 cars heavy today... If you want to pour 305 kilometers of F1 performance into a battery, it'd end up looking something like this:

 

m3RAn6J.jpg

 

 



#5 Alonsofan007

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 22:49

Very fast I imagine!

 

It is such a shame F1 isn't pushing battery tech along with 950bhp electric monsters that can do 305km on one charge!!  :eek:

 

A hill climb is very good, Toyota and others ran EVs too, but the range is small compared to that of a Grand Prix vehicle.

 

F1 should really get with the times and focus on fast, powerful EVs unlike those slow Formula E cars....

or leave f1 alone and maybe make FE cars fast instead.



#6 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 22:50

Wouldn't leaving f1 alone destroy it's 'forefront of technology' image?

#7 Vielleicht

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 22:50

Though the press releases say they aim to take the electric record, would not surprise me in the least if the internal goal is to challenge or beat Peugeot's 2013 time as that would mean serious bragging rights. This is what Pikes Peak is all about to me - pushing the envelope of your technical ability.

 

F1 should really get with the times and focus on fast, powerful EVs unlike those slow Formula E cars....

Whilst I do enjoy Formula E, I think it's important that there are other avenues for EV motorsport - especially on a pushing the limits front. Unlimited hill-climbing electric monsters is a great place for that to start.


Edited by Vielleicht, 19 October 2017 - 22:51.


#8 Alonsofan007

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 23:08

Wouldn't leaving f1 alone destroy it's 'forefront of technology' image?

not at all, you have FE to push full-electric tech, you don't need 2 series.



#9 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 04:09

not at all, you have FE to push full-electric tech, you don't need 2 series.

 

FE is low budget unlike F1.  F1 would do much more, much faster.



#10 Jazza

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 05:22

FE is low budget unlike F1. F1 would do much more, much faster.


In the grand scheme of things F1 budgets are nothing and will do nothing to advance battery life for EV’s.

There are only 4 engine manufactures in the sport. Put their engine budgets together and collectively they would still be spending under a billion a year on engines, and that’s on every part of the engine making process. The actual money spent on just R&D that could be diverted to battery technology would be a few hundred million at best. That is nothing compared to the money being thrown at battery technology each year to power smartphones, laptops, tablets, and of course consumer EV’s.

F1 will never help advance battery’s. Even if it goes full electric it will only be using the technology that has already been developed by the companies throwing billions at battery tech. They don’t even make the batteries for these hybrids now.

#11 E1pix

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 05:39

Pikes Peak is a great event!

Someday we'll go back, went on assignment in 1988 and then again in 1989 to hang with an old friend running in Open Wheel while grieving his brother.

A few months after the '88 race, my friend's brother was killed during another hill climb, and I've yet to have the heart to return after what had happened. We will again though, and now that we live in a Westfalia, this project may be the one bringing us back -- so Thanks for the thread!

(RIP, Bobby Donner, III)

Edited by E1pix, 20 October 2017 - 05:49.


#12 7MGTEsup

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 08:23

Very fast I imagine!

 

It is such a shame F1 isn't pushing battery tech along with 950bhp electric monsters that can do 305km on one charge!!  :eek:

 

A hill climb is very good, Toyota and others ran EVs too, but the range is small compared to that of a Grand Prix vehicle.

 

F1 should really get with the times and focus on fast, powerful EVs unlike those slow Formula E cars....

 

For an EV to produce the lap times of a current F1 car you would only have races that are 2 laps long. Or a car that weighed 2000kg and could do 10 laps.

 

How far will a current Tesla P100D go on a full charge if you drove it flat out around Monza?



#13 saudoso

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 08:50

Wouldn't leaving f1 alone destroy it's 'forefront of technology' image?

This ship has sailed.



#14 f1paul

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 09:00

If you didn't see this a few years ago, here it is!

 



#15 thegforcemaybewithyou

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 09:43

For an EV to produce the lap times of a current F1 car you would only have races that are 2 laps long. Or a car that weighed 2000kg and could do 10 laps.

 

How far will a current Tesla P100D go on a full charge if you drove it flat out around Monza?

 

Battery 100kWh

Peak Power 568kW

Assumed average power over a lap 568kW/2 = 284kW

 

100kWh/284kW = 0.35h = 21.1min

 

If a lap lasts 2mins, the Tesla could do 10 to 11 laps.

 

Energy recovery from braking could add 20% maybe, so 12 to 13 laps should be possible.

 

With a reduced peak power output, much longer distances can be done. Soon, Electric GT will give you an answer what a race car version of the Tesla is capable of.

https://twitter.com/EGTChampionship



#16 7MGTEsup

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 10:34

Battery 100kWh

Peak Power 568kW

Assumed average power over a lap 568kW/2 = 284kW

 

100kWh/284kW = 0.35h = 21.1min

 

If a lap lasts 2mins, the Tesla could do 10 to 11 laps.

 

Energy recovery from braking could add 20% maybe, so 12 to 13 laps should be possible.

 

With a reduced peak power output, much longer distances can be done. Soon, Electric GT will give you an answer what a race car version of the Tesla is capable of.

https://twitter.com/EGTChampionship

 

So at best it could manage 47 miles, some way short of the 187 for a grand prix. 

 

Could it maintain the lap speed as the battery is discharged? I have seen videos on youtube that show the performance of the vehicle is reduced once the battery is below 25% charge.



#17 Kalmake

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 11:57

Battery 100kWh

Peak Power 568kW

Assumed average power over a lap 568kW/2 = 284kW

 

100kWh/284kW = 0.35h = 21.1min

 

If a lap lasts 2mins, the Tesla could do 10 to 11 laps.

 

Energy recovery from braking could add 20% maybe, so 12 to 13 laps should be possible.

 

With a reduced peak power output, much longer distances can be done. Soon, Electric GT will give you an answer what a race car version of the Tesla is capable of.

https://twitter.com/EGTChampionship

And to reach F1 lap times despite F1 rules you need like 10 times the energy. Batteries are still very far from petrol performance.

 

EGT plans to do two 60km races (with a long recharge break) so your math checks out.

 

More interesting EV challenges at the moment are Nordschleife and Pikes Peak records. At 20km they are of reasonable distance with current technology.



#18 Nonesuch

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 12:18

Wouldn't leaving f1 alone destroy it's 'forefront of technology' image?


F1 hasn't been at any forefront in decades. F1 picks one or two things they - i.e. the manufacturers - want to focus on and develop that, but in the grand scheme of things these aren't big budgets anyway.

 

That's not necessarily bad, but these days even €20.000 cars often have more advanced technology in their suspensions, gearboxes, and electronic assistance features than F1 cars do.

 

But anyway, let's see what VW can do. Should be fun.



#19 FLB

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 12:28

Well, Dürheimer is still an advisor to VW Motorsport, just prior to his retirement:

 

http://www.autonews....ers-in-overhaul

 

https://www.topgear....ley-and-bugatti


Edited by FLB, 20 October 2017 - 12:30.


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#20 quaint

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 12:53

So at best it could manage 47 miles, some way short of the 187 for a grand prix. 

 

Could it maintain the lap speed as the battery is discharged? I have seen videos on youtube that show the performance of the vehicle is reduced once the battery is below 25% charge.

 

The bigger problem regarding the performance is the cooling (of the batteries, and perhaps the drivetrain as well), and it actually hits pretty quickly when driving flat out – way before 50% discharge – because the car was not designed to do that. (Of course, nothing in this life is free, and neither is cooling.)

 

Tesla's batteries are in general rather sensitive to temperature. For peak power, or the so called ludicrous mode, on a temperate day the batteries can take over 30 minutes to warm up before the power is actually available. You can't use it for very long either as described above. (Not all is awful about those batteries, however: some say they can last spectacularly well through cycles, especially when compared to your typical laptop or other handheld device. Part of this is surely because of the temperature regulation of the car.)

 

In any case, even the “very big” 100 kWh battery of a premium Tesla is only grand in terms of its competition. F1 cars – which even with all the recent weight increases, and even all the fuel on board weigh hardly a third of a driverless Tesla – burn through about 1250 kWh worth of fuel in some races – and a surprisingly large amount of that is actually converted to help the cars go around the track fast, even with the ban of blown diffusers  ;). (Also, F1 cars do recover braking energy too of course these days.)



#21 E1pix

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 13:20

Dunno about y'all, but I think the Peak was waaaay cooler when it was dirt!

#22 FLB

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 13:53

Wonder if they'll call Uncle Bobby for advice?



#23 E1pix

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 14:04

Knowing you mean Unser, please, NOOOO!!!!!!!

#24 Alonsofan007

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 14:05

FE is low budget unlike F1.  F1 would do much more, much faster.

while i agree with that, tech isn't there yet for f1 speeds for 300km, and fE now has manufacturers they should probably look at developing tech together otherwise all you are doing is slowing down f1 considerably like others have pointed out.



#25 E1pix

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 14:36

VW's smart to do this.

Better yet would be to re-introduce a properly-engined Westfalia.

Signed,
Bus Guy

#26 thegforcemaybewithyou

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 15:09

This one? http://newsroom.vw.c...d-its-electric/



#27 E1pix

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 15:11

Know about that, waaaay too small and will suck on dirt.



#28 chipmcdonald

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 15:15

Funny, I seem to recall there was a time F1 cars need to be "refueled" in order to finish a race...?

 

How much hp does the V6 produce *without the electric assist*, since we're comparing apples to oranges?

 

Having regs that are "spec by proxy" makes any referencing to advancing technology moot. 

 

If F1 had truly continued it's lineage relative to road cars (which is, again, an arbitrary notion) it would be all electric. 

 

Of course this will be mocked by the peanut gallery, despite a non-bespoke ROAD CAR - Tesla - being compared in some ways performance wise to a Formula 1 car.  

 

1) With an F1 team budget you could make much lighter motors than a Tesla;

2) The chassis would obviously be much lighter;

3) Wider tires would mean, of course, much more performance than the road car;

4) They wouldn't use plain 18650 batteries.  Li-polymer would reduce packaging weight greatly. It would also move the CG even lower. 

 

Compare *that* to the V6 without the electric assist. 

 

The real shame is that the money F1 throws at things, combined with their old-school F1 engineering prowess (NOT hamstrung by bureaucratic status-quo preserving regs) would no doubt make enormous strides in the propulsion and battery side. 

 

WHICH would HAVE A KNOCK-ON EFFECT TO ROAD CARS.  And in a way that could drastically change our lives for the better.

 

The oil industry fears this greatly, and completely explains the fence sitting rubbish propaganda "power units" in F1. 

 

Which is again why I say, embrace 2.5-3l NA V10 at 19,000 rpm, continue to refine that as much as possible......

 

 

.....or get with the present.

 

But comparing *an electrically assisted ICE* to a *Tesla road car* as being "technologically great" is prima facie rubbish.



#29 BRG

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 16:58

Funny, I seem to recall there was a time F1 cars need to be "refueled" in order to finish a race...?

Not since the 1950s.  The more recent re-fuelling era wasn't because it was needed but because it was tactically useful and Bernie thought it made a spectacle (which it didn't, but that's another story).  You will note that current F1 cars need less fuel than ever before due to the high efficiency of the current PUs, whether you like them or not.



#30 Vielleicht

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 17:08

Something I missed putting in the OP is that it says in a couple of articles that Romain Dumas (who has won PPIH three times now) is set to drive the car, so it sounds like they're after the right kind of people. Not to mention that VW have recent WRC technical experience. Also seeing as it will be a purpose built machine, I can't wait to find out what kind of unique-to-EV design architecture they may opt for...

 

I would love to see them take the all time record. Would be a fitting response to the Peugeot 208 T16 - which is the last time I really took active interest in Pikes Peak. The exciting bit is can they do it?


Edited by Vielleicht, 20 October 2017 - 17:12.


#31 chipmcdonald

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 18:23

Not since the 1950s.  The more recent re-fuelling era wasn't because it was needed but because it was tactically useful and Bernie thought it made a spectacle (which it didn't, but that's another story).  You will note that current F1 cars need less fuel than ever before due to the high efficiency of the current PUs, whether you like them or not.

 

 

 "Using less fuel" in one spec relative to another spec is out of context.  The point of F1 racing as entertainment is not "hey, let's go watch some people see who can use less fuel!!" - whether you like it or not.



#32 ArnageWRC

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 19:28

Wonder if they'll call Uncle Bobby for advice?

Unlikely - they have Dumas, a recent 3 times winner of the event.



#33 FLB

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 20:12

Unlikely - they have Dumas, a recent 3 times winner of the event.

True... and a damn good point. I'd be surprised if it was a Norma chassis, though, but you never know. Audi did use outside chassis builders for most of their Le Mans years (the R8 was a Dallara chassis, for instance).



#34 LiftAndCoast

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 20:45

Very fast I imagine!

 

It is such a shame F1 isn't pushing battery tech along with 950bhp electric monsters that can do 305km on one charge!!  :eek:

 

A hill climb is very good, Toyota and others ran EVs too, but the range is small compared to that of a Grand Prix vehicle.

 

F1 should really get with the times and focus on fast, powerful EVs unlike those slow Formula E cars....

 

On current battery technology, that would require 2,500 - 3,000kg of batteries.  Not gonna happen.



#35 BRG

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 21:54

 "Using less fuel" in one spec relative to another spec is out of context.  The point of F1 racing as entertainment is not "hey, let's go watch some people see who can use less fuel!!" - whether you like it or not.

The context was you making a snide comment about F1 cars needing to refuel - which they did when GPs were 300 + miles in length.  As opposed to a handful of miles which are enough to exhaust a EV battery.



#36 Vielleicht

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 22:32

For interests sake here's the on board of the EV record from 2016

Rhys Millen | e0 PP100 | 8:57.118

 

 

 

 



#37 Vielleicht

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 17:57

Volkswagen's Pikes Peak car key to electric World Rallycross plan

 

VW's Pikes Peak car will be revealed and start testing in March or April next year.

It cannot run at Pikes Peak itself until the official pre-event test in June.

Elements of the drivetrain and battery concept are currently being tested in a VW road car.


Edited by Vielleicht, 22 December 2017 - 17:57.


#38 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 19:00

Very fast I imagine!

It is such a shame F1 isn't pushing battery tech along with 950bhp electric monsters that can do 305km on one charge!! :eek:

A hill climb is very good, Toyota and others ran EVs too, but the range is small compared to that of a Grand Prix vehicle.

F1 should really get with the times and focus on fast, powerful EVs unlike those slow Formula E cars....


Can we stop with the myth that F1 can advance technology faster than actual multibillion corporations? If building a super battery was feasible it would’ve been done a long time ago.

#39 scolbourne

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 04:19

I keep suggesting that F1 should have two classes. One for  lower budget teams with a V12 NA engine. The second class would be electric but with a gas turbine engine, generating power to keep the batteries at the required level.

 

By tuning the rules we should be able to offer a competitive race pushing technology that will trickle down to road cars as well as having the V12 sound. 



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#40 PayasYouRace

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 09:11

Can we stop with the myth that F1 can advance technology faster than actual multibillion corporations? If building a super battery was feasible it would’ve been done a long time ago.


F1 advances technology faster when those large companies are part of the competition.

#41 Alfisti

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 11:20

Where's the friggin dirt???

Must everything be ruined? Ruiners.

#42 Dolph

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:04

Paving of the highway[edit]

The City of Colorado Springs began to pave the highway in 2002 after losing a lawsuit against the Sierra Club, which sued on account of erosion damage to streams, reservoirs, vegetation and wetlands downstream from the 1.5 million tons of road gravel deposited over several decades.[5][6][7] The local authority paved approximately 10% of the route each year after the order. The 2011 event was the last race with dirt sections, comprising approximately 25% of the course.[8][9]

Hill Climb champion Rod Millen warned at the time that paving the road would put an end to the race.[10] However, the 2012 race saw over 170 racer registrations by December 2011, compared with 46 at the same time in 2011.[11]



#43 Scotracer

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 16:49

EVs are perfect for a hillclimb in to the clouds - no direct power loss at the higher altitudes but you have to account for the lower cooling capability so there will be some de-rating of the system.



#44 Vielleicht

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 16:52

Some words from Romain Dumas, set to drive the car up the hill in June:

 

http://e-racing365.c...-at-pikes-peak/



#45 KarlCson

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 21:28

Incredibly exciting and interesting project -a record attempt that is very right in time, and shows a little bit more what the future will be able to offer when about super cars!!

To me there is no other motorsport that is even remotely as thrilling to watch as Hillclimbing -the only "problem" is when seeing those daredevils behind the steering wheel demonstrate that staggering car control by zigzagging between rocks and scarps (at INSANE speeds!), one fast realizes how useless driver oneself actually is!  :lol:  :lol:



#46 Vielleicht

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Posted 19 March 2018 - 18:24

Well, here she is.

 

The I.D. R Pikes Peak.

eV2.jpg

EV1.jpg

 

 

The four-wheel drive prototype, to be driven by three-time event event winner Romain Dumas, combines Volkswagen’s new I.D. family of electric vehicles with the brand’s sport department, R GmbH, and also signifying an increased cooperation between Volkswagen R and Volkswagen Motorsport.

Production of the first I.D. road car is set to start at the end of next year in Germany, as part of the automaker’s plans to offer more than 20 fully-electric cars by 2025.

( http://e-racing365.c...for-pikes-peak/ )



#47 Ben1445

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Posted 19 March 2018 - 18:36

Now that is what a racing prototype should look like :love:  

 

 

(Get your act together ACO/FIA.)  



#48 Vielleicht

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Posted 19 March 2018 - 22:45

Now that is what a racing prototype should look like :love:  

 

 

(Get your act together ACO/FIA.)  

I do agree. Looks lovely.



#49 TF110

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Posted 20 March 2018 - 16:46

Looks great, hope there's more in it's life than just a single pikes peak though. It does look like an extreme take on a road car look mixed with lmp. The rear wing endplates are insanely huge, like the late Group C cars.  :up:



#50 BRG

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Posted 20 March 2018 - 20:31

It's just a render. Let's wait and see if the real thing looks even remotely like it.