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Pitstop strategy - Fuel & Tyres


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Poll: Pitstop strategy (87 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you want to see happen in pitstops?

  1. Refuelling and free choice of tyres (25 votes [28.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.74%

  2. Just refuelling + Keep the current tyre system (6 votes [6.90%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.90%

  3. Leave it as it is (26 votes [29.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.89%

  4. No to refuelling, yes to free choice of tyres (30 votes [34.48%])

    Percentage of vote: 34.48%

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#1 Loosenut

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 08:58

I guess I'm just becoming the old fart who misses "the good old days". However, I do love this current crop of drivers.

As already covered on another thread, there is always one team who get it right big time and leave everyone else playing catch-up. However, when refuelling was introduced back in 1994, it did at least present an opportunity to beat a better car on pitstop strategy. One guy with less fuel and softer tyres Vs another guy with a heavier car and harder tyres. 

 

The 1st guy has 1 more stop, but has a faster car and can also play with his setup to maximise that. The 2nd guy has 1 less stop, but will spend longer in the pits to refuel. There are so many variables just in that one line and I feel F1 has been missing such variables for a while now. They tried to fix it with "trick tyres" but like DRS, it just makes the whole thing a bit false.

Defensive driving is a pretty much a skill of the past now, thanks to DRS, but I guess that debate has already been flogged to death and beyond the afterlife somewhere..

 

I'd also like to see teams free to choose whichever combination of tyres they want, when they want. Wouldn't that offer some surprise results aswell?

It's not just producing random results for the sake of random results, the team and driver still have to make a strategy work.

I guess maybe this type of pitstop strategy has less chance to work if there is no chance to defend, as long as we got DRS, or does it?

 

I remember Nigel Roebuck mocking Mosley's idea that we should think of F1 like a game of chess, back in the days when pitstops in the refuelling era were increasingly becoming the only time that track position changed, but as is still the case, despite the world and his dog calling for it, all that was needed was to fix the cars, so that the chasing car could stay close enough to attack.

 

Just wondering if anyone else thinks that pitstop strategy could do with a re-think aswell?


Edited by Loosenut, 31 October 2017 - 12:52.


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#2 Nonesuch

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 10:01

I wonder how often you'd actually see different strategies; with massive computers in the pitbox, hundreds of sensors on the cars, and a target-time on the display of the steering wheel all conspiring to allow drivers to execute the 'perfect' strategy.

 

Although I like refuelling because it makes the cars faster, I doubt the strategy 'variable' would end up being much of a 'variable' in practical terms.



#3 Loosenut

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 10:39

Well, maybe that's true, but they had such computers to make those calculations 25 years ago and we still had results for years with these strategy variables.

Which track was it that Alonso set fastest lap this year, or was it last year? Ok, maybe the Honda will just blow up eventually, but I do wonder how these PUs might compete when fuel efficiency doesn't dictate how much power you can use.

And thats another thing, I totally hate drivers nursing their car home to save fuel. For me, that's not racing.

Edited by Loosenut, 31 October 2017 - 10:40.


#4 Darren1

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 10:45

What about no refuelling and free tyres, or take away tyre marking so we don't know the strategy?



#5 maximilian

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 10:59

No refueling and scrap mandatory pit stops/tire compounds altogether.  I like the Formula E approach best: finish what you started.  Saves loads of cost, waste, and unnecessary logistics.


Edited by maximilian, 31 October 2017 - 10:59.


#6 TheFish

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 12:08

I'd like no refuelling plus free choice on tyres. Adds more pressure on Pirelli though, so unlikely to happen. Imagine a race round Monaco with no pit stops... the dullest hour and a half of your life.



#7 SenorSjon

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 12:26

No refueling and scrap mandatory pit stops/tire compounds altogether.  I like the Formula E approach best: finish what you started.  Saves loads of cost, waste, and unnecessary logistics.

 

FE would have a empty field halfway during the race.  :p



#8 7MGTEsup

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 12:33

The problem is all teams will converge on the same strategy after doing all the calculations. You may get the odd team in the mid field gamble on an early safety car and short fill the car for the first stint. I think if it wasn't for DRS and the two tyre compounds F1 would be so dull even the most hardened fans wouldn't watch it.



#9 Scotracer

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 12:37

Refueling didn't add anything to races and was unnecessarily dangerous to the pit crews.

 

Keep it as it is.



#10 Bleu

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 12:39

With fuel stops the tactic is more set than without. If the car has fuel for 30 laps, then it has to pit after 30 laps. With tyres you can be like "tyres will surely last 20 laps, might last even 40" so there is more to play.



#11 Mc_Silver

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 12:40

Refuelling was good to mix things up in qualifying and the race. Q3 laps with race fuel was nice and we were trying to figure out who is gonna pit first or not before the race. We were able to see the cars' full potential in Q1 and Q2.


Edited by Mc_Silver, 31 October 2017 - 12:41.


#12 BlackCat

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 12:41

NO to mandatory pit stops. If somebody still needs to change a tyre or do some other maintenance, then Le Mans rules: no more than 2 guys (or girls, to be politically correct) can step over the white line. And clean up the box area: no more than 10 persons authorized to enter. If some driver really needs mommy or daddy or bestie or justinbieber in box, then only instead of engineers.



#13 Loosenut

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 12:44

The problem is all teams will converge on the same strategy after doing all the calculations. You may get the odd team in the mid field gamble on an early safety car and short fill the car for the first stint. I think if it wasn't for DRS and the two tyre compounds F1 would be so dull even the most hardened fans wouldn't watch it.

Thats only assuming that their engines will perform the same as they do now with the varying fuel levels. At the moment, they all have the same fuel limit and often, some will still short fuel, trying to get the advantage of a lighter car, altho too often, we see them just limping home towards the end.

Thats also assuming their chassis will also perform the same on any given set of tyres, surely?

I'm almost certain that if we had refuelling this year, we would have seen Redbull and McLaren try some different strategies in order to bring their chassis more into play.

#14 gillesfan76

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 12:47

I'm loving the no refuelling era and qualifying without race fuel. We know exactly how each driver is performing rather than guessing who places where fuel corrected.



#15 Loosenut

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 12:47

NO to mandatory pit stops.

I agree that should also be an option..

#16 Tsarwash

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 12:47

I voted leave it as it is as there wasn't an option for no refuelling, and a free choice of tyres. 



#17 Loosenut

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 12:55

I voted leave it as it is as there wasn't an option for no refuelling, and a free choice of tyres. 

Ah ok, just my lack of imagination. Added that now.

Actually, if refuelling is off the table anyway, I'd definitely advocate that and no mandatory pitstop.

:up:



#18 SenorSjon

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 13:21

Refuelling was good to mix things up in qualifying and the race. Q3 laps with race fuel was nice and we were trying to figure out who is gonna pit first or not before the race. We were able to see the cars' full potential in Q1 and Q2.

 

That was a monstrosity. Strategy is to be decided on Sunday with regard to fuel. That nonsense costed Schumacher a lot of pole positions.



#19 Loosenut

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 13:28

Yes I agree with that too. Just do your qualifying with the fuel you need only for that, then start the race with whatever fuel and tyres you choose.

I thought qualifying with race fuel was just another silly gimmick.

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#20 Risil

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 13:35

I don't recall too many races that were enlivened by teams trying different fuel strategies. It was usually tyre life, or trying different compounds, that resulted in teams choosing a 1, 2 or 3 stop strategy.

 

There was usually some stretching of fuel at the margins, like trying to go a lap or two longer to get some clear air to get ahead of someone. But that quickly became the default way to pass anyone and it probably made the racing worse.



#21 Brian60

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 13:39

I'd like to see a free choice of tyres include different pairs at the same time also, say soft on the rear and ultra soft on the front. Far too often we see cars struggling at front or rear for grip when a different tyre on that end would help. A longer lasting tyre on the rear with say a more grippy tyre on the front, get the front turned in and on the power, with maybe some tail slide if overdone. Let the teams sort out which combination is best for them.



#22 Loosenut

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 13:44

I don't recall too many races that were enlivened by teams trying different fuel strategies. It was usually tyre life, or trying different compounds, that resulted in teams choosing a 1, 2 or 3 stop strategy.

Those doing more stops would also run each stint with less fuel, so that very much helped their strategy.

Edited by Loosenut, 31 October 2017 - 13:45.


#23 philipbain

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 14:02

Keeping the refuelling ban is vital if you ask me, the problem with refuelling is that the strategies have very little flexibility, the strategies just "play out" and reacting the events in the race can actually adversely affect your strategy. The current problem is with the tyres, they are far too durable and before anyone says "that's what the FIA asked for" this isn't true, they asked for tyres that wouldn't boil up and become useless if they overheated ala previous generation tyres, what Pirelli responded with was very durable tyres which were so hard that the hard tyre has been discontinued due to it being able to run an entire season and giving the drivers no grip! The solution seems to be making the tyres a LOT softer, I'm talking making the current "Super Soft" tyre the new "Hard" tyre, the "Ultra Soft" the new medium and then a range of much softer tyres that give great grip but wear out much quicker, the aim being that no sane team / driver would want to run the new Ultra Soft into double figures laps wise. This would give a greater range of strategic options as well as swinging the grip balance back towards mechanical grip rather than aerodynamic grip, intensifying the quality of the racing.



#24 SenorSjon

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 14:05

Then we have tire saving misery again.



#25 SophieB

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 14:05

The only time refuelling added excitement was when stuff caught fire or someone drove off with the hose still attached and both of those could hurt people. Mostly it just added mystery, which isn't the same thing as suspense.



#26 DaytimeUTT

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 14:05

With fuel stops the tactic is more set than without. If the car has fuel for 30 laps, then it has to pit after 30 laps. With tyres you can be like "tyres will surely last 20 laps, might last even 40" so there is more to play.

That wasn't really the case. Teams could switch a driver from a 2 stop to a 3 stop, or a 3 stop to a 1 stop. Drivers could also come in early if they felt they were being held up by a slower car. You could also stretch your fuel out a couple of laps.



#27 DaytimeUTT

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 14:08

There was usually some stretching of fuel at the margins, like trying to go a lap or two longer to get some clear air to get ahead of someone. But that quickly became the default way to pass anyone and it probably made the racing worse.

That was because of the aero though. Many times a driver's race strategy would get totally destroyed because of having to sit behind a 1-stopping car for a whole stint. That wasn't really the fault of refueling.



#28 philipbain

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 14:19

As for the old adage of "softer tyres = tyre saving", not necessarily, that is to misunderstand the problem with the previous Pirellis, the issue was less about actual wear and more to do with thermal degradation, so the drivers had to "save the tyres" by ensuring that they didn't overheat as if you overheated them you could not get the grip back by cooling them, this led to "tyre saving" driving, having softer tyres that have a greater degree of thermal duration will actually give the driver options, drive harder where necessary and take a little more from them when required or back off and save them for later, it would result in more variation, not less.

 

As for making passing easier, a massive all-powerful front wing might have something to do with the current problems....



#29 HoldenRT

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 14:36

Refuelling and free choice of tyres would be awesome, it'd get back to the closest thing to the tyre war, without their actually being a tyre war.  Cars could be setup from Friday onwards in terms of a 3 stop or a 2 stop, and it'd allow SO MUCH more flexibility in the race in terms of being adaptive and thinking outside the box.. in terms of traffic or unexpected SC's.  And getting the maximum pace out of your car.  For example.. a chassis that is hard on it's tyres could work around that more, and a car that is really soft on it's tyres could just 1 stop all the time.  Circuit to circuit it could vary but it would be possible to have 3 vs 2 vs 1 stop all in the same race.   And then at the end of the race they would all merge to each other and we'd find out which one was best.  In other words.. the end of the race, there'd be more of a crescendo or conclusion.  Not always.. but sometimes.

 

Having more stops in general is better for the races as it avoids those lulls for 20-30 laps while we wait for the pitstops in order for things to play out.. the absolute worst is when everyone pits at lap 35 and then saving their tyres until the end of the race.  It happens like this at Monza a lot.

 

There is usually no incentive for extra stops because the big disadvantage (currently) is that there is still the extra fuel penalty when there are extra stops.  Meaning that half the advantage is gone and it's usually better to do as few stops as possible.  It usually only happens (currently) when the tyre wear is really high but generally the lesser stops the better.  Which promotes conservation and cruising.. as opposed to going aggressive and hard racing.  For example to win on a 3 or 4 stopper is a lot of stress and a lot of overtaking, but also there's a lot more ups and downs to watch.  In other words.. there's more "stuff" per 5 minutes of the race to watch.. as opposed to a 1 stopper race from lap 40 onwards.

 

The fuel penalty of extra stops is a big thing, and not just slows the car down but also increases tyre wear.  This is how we get those 1 stopper races in the first place.. and not always.. but usually.. those races suck and are way too predictable.  Dan, Kimi and Bottas on 2 stoppers while Vettel, Lewis and Max are on 3 stoppers (or even 4 stoppers) I salivate at the thought of it.  Drivers like Max and Lewis excell at this type of racing because they can maximise and showcase their peak pace.  Some races it wouldn't make much difference, but for those 1 stopper tracks.. it'd really spice it up.

 

Overtaking isn't really affected either way.  In one way it increases the overall number of overtakes because the extra stop(s) mean more overtaking to regain track position but with a light car and high grip they are usually pretty easy, so it's not that big of a thing.  Unless it's a track like Monaco.  That isn't much difference to now though.. when someone pits on lap 20 and catches a guy who hasn't pitted yet.  But with DRS and track layout none of this really has anything to do with overtaking.  The best overtakes are the ones where everyone is on the same strategy but that can still happen under refuelling.  For example the 3 stoppers overtaking the 2 stoppers but then fighting each other.  Sometimes they even overtake each other while overtaking the slower cars infront.

 

I don't really see any downsides to be honest.  The big downside currently is that when everyone is on a 2 stopper, or especially a one stopper.. it becomes way too predictable and a case of waiting for things to happen.. with big lulls in the middle.  There is a period between lap 5 and lap 20, and then another between lap 20 and lap 40 etc etc.  In a one stopper race.. after everyone has made their final stop and there's still 30 laps left.. it can often feel like waiting for something to happen, but everything feels like it's already happened.  Even the simple fact that everyone is on the same strategy.. that alone is really bad for the spectacle.

 

The best thing to counteract that (currently) is when drivers are out of position on the grid or when they pit out of sync or use alternate tyre strategy but in most scenarios they try to avoid these things and they are unforeseen and they are doing damage control to recover from something they hadn't planned for.  Sometimes that's enough to spice the race up, usually it's not though.  The refueling thing offers a similar thing but in more of a planned deliberate way.. that'd happen more regularly.

 

I love the idea of teams being able to use any tyre they want.. and customising the setup of the car around their favoured tyre.  It's something that's been missing in the sport for a long time.

 

The idea of them only using the alternate tyres when they wish to, and only for a certain strategy when it suits them and having the flexibility for that.. can only improve the racing IMO.  To me the pinnacle of racing is when all drivers/cars are at peak pace and are able to push 100% and then to be able to fight with each other and overtake each other while doing that.  The idea of conserving is the exact opposite of that and we've had way too much of that in the last 5+ years.  It's like the difference between boxers fighting each other in the early rounds when the punches are hard and quick.. as opposed to the end when they are sloppy and slow.  The earlier rounds are better to watch.  And the idea of knocking someone out in the 11th round when he is out of breath and tired, isn't really the same thing as knocking him out in the 2nd round when he is sharp and quick.

 

In other words, I value overtakes much more when the drivers are both at their peak pace pushing 100% and are both on fresh tyres braking super late, as opposed to when they are sliding around like a shopping trolley on 40 lap old tyres.

 

I like the idea of teams not having to use the tyres that don't work well with their car.. and only using them when it suits them for a customised 2 or 3 stop (for example).  Combine that with refuelling and you have so much flexibility and strategic options.. with the drivers pushing so hard for the WHOLE race.. some track layouts might not be affected much either way.. but some races would be pure magic with very exciting conclusions in the last 10 laps.  And the laps they drive in the race would be with lighter fuel, with fresher tyres and the drivers would be really tested.

 

Like 60-80 minutes of qualifying pace.. instead of a leisurely Sunday afternoon drive with 5 minutes bursts of 'hammer time' here or there.  Which is very watered down and mild to say the least... especially for the supposed 'best drivers in the world'.  The racing equivalent of 'fighter pilots'.


Edited by HoldenRT, 31 October 2017 - 14:56.


#30 pdac

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 14:37

Where's the "No planned pit stops" option?



#31 Loosenut

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 14:53

Where's the "No planned pit stops" option?

I wasn't really sure if there needs to be that option, because that could be implememted in addition to, rather than instead of the existing options.

I personally, would like to see all options available. Refuelling, free tyre choice and no mandatory stop. Let the teams and drivers decide for themselves.

#32 l2k2

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 17:09

Refuelling and free choice of tyres would be awesome, it'd get back to the closest thing to the tyre war, without their actually being a tyre war.  Cars could be setup from Friday onwards in terms of a 3 stop or a 2 stop, and it'd allow SO MUCH more flexibility in the race in terms of being adaptive and thinking outside the box.. in terms of traffic or unexpected SC's.  And getting the maximum pace out of your car.  For example.. a chassis that is hard on it's tyres could work around that more, and a car that is really soft on it's tyres could just 1 stop all the time.  Circuit to circuit it could vary but it would be possible to have 3 vs 2 vs 1 stop all in the same race.   And then at the end of the race they would all merge to each other and we'd find out which one was best.  In other words.. the end of the race, there'd be more of a crescendo or conclusion.  Not always.. but sometimes.

 

Finally, a proper wall of text to which to reply with another wall of text. TL; DR. I disagree with you in almost every aspect.

 

Re-allowing refuelling would be not a substitute to a tyre war with two manufacturers. The big part there was that certain teams had a large, seemingly random, advantage in certain races (or even within the same race with changing conditions). Refuelling would be same for everyone, and thus, would not make situation any closer to the tyre war of late ninties or early noughties.

 

Neither does refuelling enable any more strategic choises. It is still number of, and timing of, pitstops. It, however, has an impact on the “optimum strategy”—which seemed to often results in about one more stop. This, however, could just as well have been the indurability of the tyres (already) back then. They just did not make such a fuss about it.

 

Also, in the refuelling era, it was often quite obvious who was going to win (for example, now I see, Schumacher will win this as by lap 10 everyone ahead of him has already pitted for fuel).

 

The number of stops DOES vary already now. Example: in both last two races we have had both competitive one-stop and two-stop strategies.

 

Having more stops in general is better for the races as it avoids those lulls for 20-30 laps while we wait for the pitstops in order for things to play out.. the absolute worst is when everyone pits at lap 35 and then saving their tyres until the end of the race.  It happens like this at Monza a lot.

 

There is usually no incentive for extra stops because the big disadvantage (currently) is that there is still the extra fuel penalty when there are extra stops.  Meaning that half the advantage is gone and it's usually better to do as few stops as possible.  It usually only happens (currently) when the tyre wear is really high but generally the lesser stops the better.  Which promotes conservation and cruising.. as opposed to going aggressive and hard racing.  For example to win on a 3 or 4 stopper is a lot of stress and a lot of overtaking, but also there's a lot more ups and downs to watch.  In other words.. there's more "stuff" per 5 minutes of the race to watch.. as opposed to a 1 stopper race from lap 40 onwards.

 

The fuel penalty of extra stops is a big thing, and not just slows the car down but also increases tyre wear.  This is how we get those 1 stopper races in the first place.. and not always.. but usually.. those races suck and are way too predictable.  Dan, Kimi and Bottas on 2 stoppers while Vettel, Lewis and Max are on 3 stoppers (or even 4 stoppers) I salivate at the thought of it.  Drivers like Max and Lewis excell at this type of racing because they can maximise and showcase their peak pace.  Some races it wouldn't make much difference, but for those 1 stopper tracks.. it'd really spice it up.

 
Yes, one stoppers are on average slightly less entertaining. One thing I do not disagree with you.
 
But, then you go and list Monza as your prime example. It was only boring if you just followed the two dominant silver arrows. They most likely would have had similar domination with refuelling too.
 
And, again, last two races had mixed one- and two-stop strategies... without refuelling and everything horrible it brings. (See next point for that.)

 

Overtaking isn't really affected either way.  In one way it increases the overall number of overtakes because the extra stop(s) mean more overtaking to regain track position but with a light car and high grip they are usually pretty easy, so it's not that big of a thing.  Unless it's a track like Monaco.  That isn't much difference to now though.. when someone pits on lap 20 and catches a guy who hasn't pitted yet.  But with DRS and track layout none of this really has anything to do with overtaking.  The best overtakes are the ones where everyone is on the same strategy but that can still happen under refuelling.  For example the 3 stoppers overtaking the 2 stoppers but then fighting each other.  Sometimes they even overtake each other while overtaking the slower cars infront.

 
The refuelling era just happened to be the era with least overtakes? There was less need to overtake, and also less opportunities for overtaking. The passing was done with pit strategy.
 
A driver with three-stop strategy has to be able to run without traffic, or the two-stoppers will have easy task of emerging ahead. Overtaking takes time, and thus in such a sprint race, it has to be avoided at almost all cost. (See Schumachers four-stop France for example, he did not even bother to try to overtake on track.)
 
In the refuelling era you will almost never catch another driver who has not yet pitted. They will almost always be faster than you (as you now have the heavy car and they're running light). Thus, no such overtakes either. One reason for this is also the previous, the team will have to avoid any on-track overtaking at almost all cost. Without refuelling, they cannot do that as easily—thus more need for overtaking and thus more overtaking has been seen once again after the refuelling was banned.

 

I don't really see any downsides to be honest.  The big downside currently is that when everyone is on a 2 stopper, or especially a one stopper.. it becomes way too predictable and a case of waiting for things to happen.. with big lulls in the middle.  There is a period between lap 5 and lap 20, and then another between lap 20 and lap 40 etc etc.  In a one stopper race.. after everyone has made their final stop and there's still 30 laps left.. it can often feel like waiting for something to happen, but everything feels like it's already happened.  Even the simple fact that everyone is on the same strategy.. that alone is really bad for the spectacle.

 

The best thing to counteract that (currently) is when drivers are out of position on the grid or when they pit out of sync or use alternate tyre strategy but in most scenarios they try to avoid these things and they are unforeseen and they are doing damage control to recover from something they hadn't planned for.  Sometimes that's enough to spice the race up, usually it's not though.  The refueling thing offers a similar thing but in more of a planned deliberate way.. that'd happen more regularly.

 

I love the idea of teams being able to use any tyre they want.. and customising the setup of the car around their favoured tyre.  It's something that's been missing in the sport for a long time.

 

The idea of them only using the alternate tyres when they wish to, and only for a certain strategy when it suits them and having the flexibility for that.. can only improve the racing IMO.  To me the pinnacle of racing is when all drivers/cars are at peak pace and are able to push 100% and then to be able to fight with each other and overtake each other while doing that.  The idea of conserving is the exact opposite of that and we've had way too much of that in the last 5+ years.  It's like the difference between boxers fighting each other in the early rounds when the punches are hard and quick.. as opposed to the end when they are sloppy and slow.  The earlier rounds are better to watch.  And the idea of knocking someone out in the 11th round when he is out of breath and tired, isn't really the same thing as knocking him out in the 2nd round when he is sharp and quick.

 
The reduced overtaking is not a downside?
 
Also, even with refuelling, everyone is with same strategy for the last stint. (More so, if there is no forced tyre change to a worse set.)
 

In other words, I value overtakes much more when the drivers are both at their peak pace pushing 100% and are both on fresh tyres braking super late, as opposed to when they are sliding around like a shopping trolley on 40 lap old tyres.

 

I like the idea of teams not having to use the tyres that don't work well with their car.. and only using them when it suits them for a customised 2 or 3 stop (for example).  Combine that with refuelling and you have so much flexibility and strategic options.. with the drivers pushing so hard for the WHOLE race.. some track layouts might not be affected much either way.. but some races would be pure magic with very exciting conclusions in the last 10 laps.  And the laps they drive in the race would be with lighter fuel, with fresher tyres and the drivers would be really tested.

 

Like 60-80 minutes of qualifying pace.. instead of a leisurely Sunday afternoon drive with 5 minutes bursts of 'hammer time' here or there.  Which is very watered down and mild to say the least... especially for the supposed 'best drivers in the world'.  The racing equivalent of 'fighter pilots'.

 
But they have never been pushing 100 %. Not even Schumacher at France in 2004. (The cars used to be light, small and nimble even without refuelling. That is an entirely separate issue.)
 
But if everyone is with a 2 or 3 strategy, is that not exactly same amount of options as currently? (Or even slightly less so.) And, the conclusions will not be during the last few laps, they'd be around the final pit stops. (15–20 laps from the flag.) After that, it was just about getting to the line in a Trulli train—had you not gotten ahead during the pit stops.
 
Races have also never been raced at qualifying pace. Back in the late refuelling era, it was all about fastest way to run a stint. (Which included many attrocities, including saving fuel and managing tyres. The not-being-broadcast team radios just kept casual fans from observing this...)


#33 Requiem84

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 17:17

Bringing back re-fuelling will greatly increase the amounts of overtakes.. in the pits

 

The only positive thing I did like about the refuelling era was how fast the cars were because they were so damn light all the time. So, maybe simplify the engine rules to decrease weight of the cars. But please, no refuelling... 

 

The amount of on track overtakes will be reduced so much F1 would be boring again. 



#34 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 17:36

Well, maybe that's true, but they had such computers to make those calculations 25 years ago and we still had results for years with these strategy variables.

Which track was it that Alonso set fastest lap this year, or was it last year? Ok, maybe the Honda will just blow up eventually, but I do wonder how these PUs might compete when fuel efficiency doesn't dictate how much power you can use.

And thats another thing, I totally hate drivers nursing their car home to save fuel. For me, that's not racing.

 

Every time I read stuff like this I can't imagine how it is possible to write it after actually having watched F1 during the refueling era


Edited by KnucklesAgain, 31 October 2017 - 17:36.


#35 Loosenut

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 17:38

Its easy Knuckles, just get old and start reminiscing! :D

#36 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 17:43

Its easy Knuckles, just get old and start reminiscing! :D

 

I am old, it does not help :)

 

The thing is, refueling certainly increases strategy options in some way, but decreases them in others: There is necessarily an upper limit to the amount of laps you can stay out, and for the first stint you have to decide it before the race. And overtaking in the pits is always better than on track. IF an alternate strategy is faster it is the one that minimizes the chances of your driver seeing other cars on track.



#37 Loosenut

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 18:01

Haha fair enough.

I can't argue with that logic, except to say that aero was really what was killing overtaking in F1 at that time, rather than fuel.

It is still a problem now, although they decided to fix the front wing problem by opening the rear wing.

Well, maybe I'm wrong. I just want to see the best drivers wringing their car's neck.

#38 l2k2

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 18:05

Haha fair enough.

I can't argue with that logic, except to say that aero was really what was killing overtaking in F1 at that time, rather than fuel.

It is still a problem now, although they decided to fix the front wing problem by opening the rear wing.

Well, maybe I'm wrong. I just want to see the best drivers wringing their car's neck.

So, this is why the number of overtakes per race declined rapidly in 1994?

For reference, http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

Edit: and, remained practically constant from 1995 to 2009, too?

Edited by l2k2, 31 October 2017 - 18:07.


#39 Loosenut

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 18:17

Why do you smart arses have to bring statistics into it? They should be banned! :D

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#40 TomNokoe

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 18:17

Refuelling is difficult now because the engines are so efficient.

A full tank of fuel is only worth 3 seconds.

#41 BillBald

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 18:53

So, this is why the number of overtakes per race declined rapidly in 1994?

For reference, http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/

Edit: and, remained practically constant from 1995 to 2009, too?

 

Looking at the Overtaking Trends chart on that website, I see that:

There was no sudden decrease in overtaking in 1994, it was part of a long-term decline which was almost certainly due to more sophisticated aero.

There was a good increase in overtaking in 2010 (refuelling ban), and a massive increase in 2011 (DRS and Pirelli tyres).

 

Clearly, it's mainly DRS which allows the current cars to overtake. Although management of fuel, electrical energy and tyres has probably played a role as well.

 

In other words, it's the things which many people don't like, which make our racing more interesting.



#42 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 18:58

Where's the "No planned pit stops" option?

 

That's the last option: no refuel, free choice of tyres.  I.e., you can do the whole race on one set of tyres if you want, no mandatory tyre requirements.  :up:  :up:

 

This is my preferred option, forcing use of different tyres is arbitrary.



#43 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 18:59

Then we have tire saving misery again.

 

Not at all, if two or three stop on ultra-soft is faster than no-stop on medium, than the drivers will choose the former... Or there will be a mix of strategies, creating excitement. :up: :)



#44 f1paul

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 19:36

The big problem is that the pit lane speed is much lower than it was before that tyre hit a cameraman in 2013 at the Nurburgring. This means that you lose so much time in the pits, hence why 1 stoppers are more common.

 

In 2012 and 2011, we saw lots of variety with the number of pitstops, I know this was mainly due to the cheesy tyres but it was also partly down to the pit lane speed limit.

 

A faster pit lane speed limit will naturally mean less 1 stoppers which is what I'd like to see. 

 

As for refuelling, I dunno. I'm not against it or for it. One of my favourite F1 races, the 1998 Hungary GP is a race that I'd like to see more of in the future, so that's an argument for refuelling because that created that amazing GP. 



#45 l2k2

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 19:44

Looking at the Overtaking Trends chart on that website, I see that:

There was no sudden decrease in overtaking in 1994, it was part of a long-term decline which was almost certainly due to more sophisticated aero.

There was a good increase in overtaking in 2010 (refuelling ban), and a massive increase in 2011 (DRS and Pirelli tyres).

 

Clearly, it's mainly DRS which allows the current cars to overtake. Although management of fuel, electrical energy and tyres has probably played a role as well.

 

In other words, it's the things which many people don't like, which make our racing more interesting.

 


The drop from 1993 to 1994 is bigger than between any preceding year from the beginning of that statistic... Ok, well, it could be due to them banning all fancy things from the early ninties: active suspension, traction control, ABS. (I'd think such measures should increase overtaking, but whatever.) Then, however, why was there a large drop from 1994 to 1995, i.e., when they had mastered the strategy. (No relevant rule changes between the two years.) And, then, after that, there were no longer such large drop on any year (before 2015).

The first pit strategy pass for victory was by certain Schumacher (on Senna) in the very first refuelling race. He first tried the conventional passing, but then when that did not work, they did it with pit strategy. After the first few grand prix, most other teams realised what the new era was about. The rest is history (up until 2010).. EDIT: Typos...


Edited by l2k2, 31 October 2017 - 19:45.


#46 scheivlak

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 19:45

Looking at the Overtaking Trends chart on that website, I see that:

There was no sudden decrease in overtaking in 1994, it was part of a long-term decline which was almost certainly due to more sophisticated aero.

There was a good increase in overtaking in 2010 (refuelling ban), and a massive increase in 2011 (DRS and Pirelli tyres).

 

Clearly, it's mainly DRS which allows the current cars to overtake. Although management of fuel, electrical energy and tyres has probably played a role as well.

 

In other words, it's the things which many people don't like, which make our racing more interesting.

The decrease in overtakes in dry GPs 1993-1995 was far more significant than any of the years before and it stayed more or less at that low level until 2010.



#47 AlexFone

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 22:24

Refueling didn't add anything to races and was unnecessarily dangerous to the pit crews.

Keep it as it is.


Agree. I think adding the 3rd compound for a race weekend has kept things interesting and adding in Electrical Store Driver Deployment that is being mooted will spice things up. I like the idea that a driver can tactically store the energy up for a couple of laps and then use it as he pleases.

Now let’s get rid of the halo and finally work out how cars can follow each other without suffering, don’t tnink we will ever win those 2 arguments.

#48 Myrvold

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 23:22

Re-fueling is the rule change that have removed the most on-track passes in F1.

The ban on it, is, with the exception of cheese,tyres, the rule change that added the most on-track passes in F1.



#49 THEWALL

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 23:31

Strategy is not racing. Refueling avoids on track action. The best way to maximize probability of having on track racing is to reduce variables, weight being one of the most important ones. Refueling is gone and it's for the best. Stop with the refueling nostalgia, that's not the problem. Close thread.



#50 DaytimeUTT

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 23:40

Let me say it again: The lack of passing during the refueling era was down to aero, not refueling. If today's F1 had no DRS and no cheese tyres, it would be exactly the same, people passing in the pit stops with an undercut. If refueling was here today, drivers wouldn't wait to refuel to pass and compromise their strategy, they would use DRS and/or fresher tyres to overtake.