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2021 engine formula: political wrangling, technical details, aesthetics...


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Poll: Pick and choose! (505 member(s) have cast votes)

Extra 3000rpm?

  1. Yay (455 votes [90.10%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 90.10%

  2. Nay (50 votes [9.90%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.90%

More prescriptive engine design, standard energy store etc

  1. Yay (257 votes [50.89%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.89%

  2. Nay (248 votes [49.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 49.11%

Removing MGU-H, more tactical use of MGU-K

  1. Yay (370 votes [73.27%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 73.27%

  2. Nay (135 votes [26.73%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.73%

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#5151 Jazza

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 03:54

My point albeit somewhat subtle was that reducing the width is something I think they should do - but when you consider the changes to side impact structures and the potential for decreasing safety - this is much harder to achieve.

Once you've defined the minimum car width for safety, why wouldn't you automatically want the front wing to be a similar width?

Reducing width wouldn’t make the car any less safe, as maximum width comes from the edge of the wheels and not the body of the car. A skinny car therefore would have no less crash protection than a wider one. In fact, in 98 when they went to the narrow track, they actually widened the chassis compared to the 97 cars for safety reasons. So maximum car width shouldn’t impact safety.

Edited by Jazza, 10 October 2019 - 03:55.


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#5152 Wuzak

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 04:29

Reducing width wouldn’t make the car any less safe, as maximum width comes from the edge of the wheels and not the body of the car. A skinny car therefore would have no less crash protection than a wider one. In fact, in 98 when they went to the narrow track, they actually widened the chassis compared to the 97 cars for safety reasons. So maximum car width shouldn’t impact safety.

 

And the body is still the same width, though the floor is wider.



#5153 scolbourne

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 05:14

I still think an interesting formula would be to split the grid into V12 NA engines with no hybrid and a gas turbine powered hybrid car. Tweak the fuel allocation for each class to maintain competition and stimulate research.

This will achieve an impressive sounding grid with two distinct types of sound, which will please spectators. It will help push gas turbines for road use in hybrid cars where they can have some advantages due to their light weight.

 

Rig the points so that a team that can win in both classes , will do best in the championship.

 

I would allow unlimited power from the hybrid system and also allow 4WD in both classes. Fuel allocation would be the only limit on engine size, with this expected to be reduced each year, whilst maintaining total power.



#5154 F1 Mike

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 05:20

Everyone has grown obsessed with ability to overtake. As long as we have great racing and great races the difficulties of overtaking don't matter. It shouldn't be easy!
It's nowhere near as bad as it was in 2004/5/6/7 and is likely better as a racing spectacle than in the 90s as teams back then were light years apart.
There would be 2 laps often seperating the front teams from the tail end of the points

#5155 FPV GTHO

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 05:30

And the body is still the same width, though the floor is wider.


I think they should narrow the floor back to 2016 levels. I don't think anybody has taken advantage of having wider bodywork other than the floor, and from what I've read the edges of the floor are also one of the most sensitive areas to the front wheel wake.

#5156 PayasYouRace

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 05:41

From my perspective, a smaller car overall has less potential for generating "bad" downforce (ie flickups / vortices / turning vanes / etc) so naturally guides the teams towards the intended solution. Controlling both dimensions also ultimately "limits" the amount of downforce available per car, which can be tweaked to suit peak power such that the cars will be more challenging to drive from a handling perspective.


It’s actually the opposite. A smaller car means having to work the air harder, meaning you have to add more flicks, fins and vanes for the same effect. The increased length of recent years is driven by the rules not allowing these aero add ons. The teams have gone for increased length to get the downforce and aero efficiency they crave.

#5157 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 06:36

My point albeit somewhat subtle was that reducing the width is something I think they should do

 

But an F1 car is supposed to be 2.15m wide as far as I am concerned.  All classic F1 cars from the 1970's and 1980's were this width.

 

The current S Class like length is excessive and should be trimmed with a maximum length or maximum wheelbase IMO.



#5158 shure

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 06:47

Everyone has grown obsessed with ability to overtake. As long as we have great racing and great races the difficulties of overtaking don't matter. It shouldn't be easy!
It's nowhere near as bad as it was in 2004/5/6/7 and is likely better as a racing spectacle than in the 90s as teams back then were light years apart.
There would be 2 laps often seperating the front teams from the tail end of the points

I agree with you up to a point.  I think people tend to be obsessed with the number of overtakes and making the act of overtaking the primary goal is a bit short sighted.  That's why we have DRS, unfortunately.  But equally it's no good having processions where the only overtakes are ones between vastly mismatched cars or in the pits rather than on the track.  Drivers should at least have a chance of overtaking and if it's too hard to follow then all they are doing is waiting for the guy in front to pit or make a mistake.  In short it's the ability to follow very closely that's at issue, not the number of overtakes in a race



#5159 Ivanhoe

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 08:26

Everyone has grown obsessed with ability to overtake. As long as we have great racing and great races the difficulties of overtaking don't matter. It shouldn't be easy!

Agreed, but following a car closely to prepare for an overtake sure should be easier.

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#5160 Henri Greuter

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 09:19

Everyone has grown obsessed with ability to overtake. As long as we have great racing and great races the difficulties of overtaking don't matter. It shouldn't be easy!
It's nowhere near as bad as it was in 2004/5/6/7 and is likely better as a racing spectacle than in the 90s as teams back then were light years apart.
There would be 2 laps often seperating the front teams from the tail end of the points



There is a difference between `easy` and "Impossible"

#5161 statman

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 09:35

via reddit:

 

Likely CFD model of updated 2021 "lima" concept with swept wing and wingtips via Formula 1 on LinkedIn

 

wv57xnxe8jr31.png


Edited by statman, 10 October 2019 - 09:37.


#5162 Pingguest

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Posted 10 October 2019 - 17:18



An F1 car should be 2.15 metres wide as below, IMO.  It's a shame restoring the proper width has not been a regulatory consideration for 2021 (albeit 2017's 2.00m is still an improvement over  the squashed looking 1.80m wide cars).

 

Now that the proper width of the tyres will be restored in 2021 (with a smidge extra for good measure, 270mm up front up from 245mm in '92, 405 down back up from 380 in '92) -- surely restoring the width of the car is the next step?  :up:

 

mclaren-mp4.jpg

 

What proper width? Prior 1981, the (rear) tires were even wider.   ;)



#5163 owenmahamilton

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:16

This is a silly decision in my opinion, why do they need them? Indycars don't have them and they manage perfectly well without them.

 

https://www.autospor...cision-reversed



#5164 Clatter

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:20

This is a silly decision in my opinion, why do they need them? Indycars don't have them and they manage perfectly well without them.

 

https://www.autospor...cision-reversed

 


This one gets binned everytime it is proposed.

#5165 SenorSjon

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:28

Idiotic... It would force Pirelli to make tires with a wider working range. I thought they want to save costs, yet they keep numerous blankets around.



#5166 shure

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:37

This one gets binned everytime it is proposed.

Yes disappointing but not entirely unexpected.  Basically it makes it more difficult for Pirelli to make comedy tyres as they would have to give them a far wider operating window, and clearly they don't want to lose that control aspect



#5167 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 10:57

Idiotic... It would force Pirelli to make tires with a wider working range. I thought they want to save costs, yet they keep numerous blankets around.

 

It actually wouldn't. The working range would be the same with or without tyre blankets. It would just take drivers a couple of laps to get into that range.



#5168 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:00

Idiotic... It would force Pirelli to make tires with a wider working range.

 

It's simply highlights Pirelli's incompetence to do so.



#5169 Kalmake

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:16

I think the blankets will stay to control in-garage temperatures as long as Pirelli is the supplier.



#5170 SenorSjon

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:20

It actually wouldn't. The working range would be the same with or without tyre blankets. It would just take drivers a couple of laps to get into that range.

 

And teams don't want tires that take 2-3 laps to be somewhat usable. Knowing PIrelli, they are worn down before they are up to temperature. 



#5171 shure

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 11:27

It actually wouldn't. The working range would be the same with or without tyre blankets. It would just take drivers a couple of laps to get into that range.

wasn't there  lot of discussion a while back how once the tyres have lost their temperatures it was all but impossible to bring them back into the range again?



#5172 MattK9

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 17:10

They want to have sustainable engine technology but are quite happy to have every team heat up their all tyres to 80degC plus. Completely mixed messages.

#5173 Ben1445

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 18:21

They want to have sustainable engine technology but are quite happy to have every team heat up their all tyres to 80degC plus. Completely mixed messages.


They really should ban tyre warmers. On both a racing and environmental perspective.

#5174 Clatter

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 18:29

wasn't there  lot of discussion a while back how once the tyres have lost their temperatures it was all but impossible to bring them back into the range again?

 


F2 don't use tyre warmers, so Pirelli can make tyres that can cope. The excuses, as always, are just pathetic.

#5175 SenorSjon

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 18:39


F2 don't use tyre warmers, so Pirelli can make tyres that can cope. The excuses, as always, are just pathetic.


Well, F2 tires aren't a pretty example...

#5176 Clatter

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 19:08

Well, F2 tires aren't a pretty example...

 


It's an example that shows it can be done, and tyre warmers are not essential. The excuses just don't wash. If anything the swap to the 18 inch wheels is the ideal time to do it as Pirelli are going to have to redesign the tyre anyway.

Edited by Clatter, 11 October 2019 - 19:09.


#5177 Henri Greuter

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 19:11

It's an example that shows it can be done, and tyre warmers are not essential. The excuses just don't wash. If anything the swap to the 18 inch wheels is the ideal time to do it as Pirelli are going to have to redesign the tyre anyway.

 

 

 

Maybe Pirelli will change its mind if they are told that the costs for keeping those tire warmers will be used another year has to be paid by them.....


Edited by Henri Greuter, 11 October 2019 - 19:12.


#5178 RacingGreen

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 19:28

What a lot of posters here are forgetting is F1's basic modus operandi. If the F1 teams want warm tyres they will get warm tyres and if the FIA ban tyres warming blankets they will just find another even more expensive and even less environmentally friendly way of getting them.


Edited by RacingGreen, 11 October 2019 - 19:28.


#5179 Fastcake

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 19:30

Just paid attention to the thread title for the first time in ages, and I think 2021 engine formula has become redundant since there’s not actually going to be any new engine changes. 



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#5180 shure

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 19:34

What a lot of posters here are forgetting is F1's basic modus operandi. If the F1 teams want warm tyres they will get warm tyres and if the FIA ban tyres warming blankets they will just find another even more expensive and even less environmentally friendly way of getting them.

I think it's more about what the lack of tyre warmers represent.  One of the hallmarks of these Pirelli tyres is their temperature sensitivity and the difficulty teams can have in getting them in the right operating window.  Without tyre warmers Pirelli would have been forced to create more robust tyres which would have removed that issue.  



#5181 Clatter

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 19:50

What a lot of posters here are forgetting is F1's basic modus operandi. If the F1 teams want warm tyres they will get warm tyres and if the FIA ban tyres warming blankets they will just find another even more expensive and even less environmentally friendly way of getting them.

 


Just specify the tyres can't be warmer than the ambient temperature, with a small leeway.

#5182 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 20:24

Just specify the tyres can't be warmer than the ambient temperature, with a small leeway.

 

Alternatively, don't let them out of a Pirelli locker until they are needed. Each team could have them in their garage, but a Pirelli "guard" would have to release them just before a pit stop or whatever.



#5183 pdac

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 20:38

What a lot of posters here are forgetting is F1's basic modus operandi. If the F1 teams want warm tyres they will get warm tyres and if the FIA ban tyres warming blankets they will just find another even more expensive and even less environmentally friendly way of getting them.

 

I thought it was more like if the FIA say they are going to ban tyre warmers, the teams will get annoyed and the FIA will start cry and say "I'm sorry, we didn't mean it. Please don't be angry with us.".



#5184 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 03:02

They should call off the move to the awful 18 inch tires, instead of calling off the tire blanket ban. :mad:

#5185 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 05:02

They should call off the move to the awful 18 inch tires

 

The 18 inch tyres are wonderful and bring F1 into line with LMP1.  :up:

 

Recall after all, that an F1 car is just an LMP1 car with two-wheel-drive, a semi-open cockpit, uncovered wheels, a smaller battery and a ridiculously long wheelbase.  [Thankfully the F2 car, centre, has a more reasonable wheelbase!]

 

toyota-gr-super-sport.jpg

 

Pirelli-18-Zoll-Formel-2-GP-Italien-2019

 

racefansdotnet-20190913-174056-1.jpg


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 12 October 2019 - 10:33.


#5186 FPV GTHO

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 06:27

I think I've said before the tyre blanket ban was going to force Pirelli to change how they've been making their tyres, so it will be interesting to see how things go now. My gut feeling is where the teams want lower degradation (again) for 2021, Pirelli will simply deliver harder tyres (again). Just like it happened for 2017 when the teams wanted less overheating.

#5187 Fatgadget

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 06:31

They should call off the move to the awful 18 inch tires, instead of calling off the tire blanket ban. :mad:

Why are 18 " tyres awful? :confused:



#5188 PayasYouRace

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 09:39

They should call off the move to the awful 18 inch tires, instead of calling off the tire blanket ban. :mad:

 

Shall we go whole hog and go back to treaded cross-ply tyres on wire-spoked wheels?



#5189 Marklar

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 09:55

Ha!


Tobi Grüner
@tgruener
·
59 s

Teams held an internal voting on the proposed 2021 technical regulation changes. Only 4 teams are in favour (Renault, Alfa Romeo, McLaren & Williams). The other six rather keep the current cars.
 
https://www.auto-mot...gen-neue-autos/
 



#5190 SCUDmissile

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 09:56

These teams need to just put up or shut up tbh.

Ferrari have nowhere to go, just call their bluff.

#5191 TomNokoe

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 09:59

4/10, ooooooh.

#5192 shure

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 10:01

Ha!


Tobi Grüner
@tgruener
·
59 s

Teams held an internal voting on the proposed 2021 technical regulation changes. Only 4 teams are in favour (Renault, Alfa Romeo, McLaren & Williams). The other six rather keep the current cars.
 
https://www.auto-mot...gen-neue-autos/
 

Little surprised to see Alfa voting against Ferrari, but otherwise reasonably predictable.   The above don't have much of a chance of catching the front under existing regulations, while teams like Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull have potentially more to lose.  At the end of the day each and every one of them is voting for self interest rather than what may be best for F1



#5193 statman

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 10:24

sounds like Bernie was right, there's no place for democracy. Overrule them and push it through.



#5194 GAZF1nut

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 10:25

sounds like Bernie was right, there's no place for democracy. Overrule them and push it through.

Yep, stuff the teams’ selfish interests. Watch the big teams throw their toys out the pram and threaten to quit.


Edited by GAZF1nut, 12 October 2019 - 10:26.


#5195 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 10:29


Teams held an internal voting on the proposed 2021 technical regulation changes. Only 4 teams are in favour (Renault, Alfa Romeo, McLaren & Williams). The other six rather keep the current cars.
 
https://www.auto-mot...gen-neue-autos/
 

 

It would be such a shame to miss out on these beauties because of inane reasons.  :(

 

F1-Auto-2021-Windkanal-2019-article169Ga



#5196 TauriJ

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 10:29

Lmao, all this research and we could not Even get these new cars.

#5197 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 10:33

Ha!


Tobi Grüner
@tgruener
·
59 s

Teams held an internal voting on the proposed 2021 technical regulation changes. Only 4 teams are in favour (Renault, Alfa Romeo, McLaren & Williams). The other six rather keep the current cars.
 
https://www.auto-mot...gen-neue-autos/
 

 

What's the way going forward by the way? Is a majority among the teams needed or can the FIA force them through anyway, how does it work?



#5198 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 10:34

Lmao, all this research and we could not Even get these new cars.

 

Thankfully, the teams have no vote (this time) and FIA will set the regulations anyway.  :up:


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 12 October 2019 - 10:34.


#5199 TauriJ

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 10:34

I bet they refuse to quit, and Ferrari has the right to veto it.

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#5200 Clatter

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 10:36

Thankfully, the teams have no vote (this time) and FIA will set the regulations anyway.  :up:

 


I wouldn't be so sure about that. Teams will complain and the FIA will back down.