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2021 engine formula: political wrangling, technical details, aesthetics...


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Poll: Pick and choose! (517 member(s) have cast votes)

Extra 3000rpm?

  1. Yay (465 votes [89.94%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 89.94%

  2. Nay (52 votes [10.06%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.06%

More prescriptive engine design, standard energy store etc

  1. Yay (263 votes [50.87%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.87%

  2. Nay (254 votes [49.13%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 49.13%

Removing MGU-H, more tactical use of MGU-K

  1. Yay (377 votes [72.92%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 72.92%

  2. Nay (140 votes [27.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 27.08%

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#5301 Boing Ball

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Posted 17 November 2019 - 18:31

It really isn’t.

 

The length of the cars is not an overtaking related problem.  It is an aesthetic issue for many, though, and FIA has promised better looking cars twice in recent regulation changes (in 2017 and 2021).



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#5302 FPV GTHO

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 00:34

I disagree, it is an overtaking problem. To outbrake someone you essentially need to brake a car length later. Shorten the car length, the easier it is to get that gap from braking. You can also turn in sooner from coming around another car. I would imagine cars being 1m longer than 10 years ago is more significant than being 20cm wider.

#5303 pdac

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 00:44

I disagree, it is an overtaking problem. To outbrake someone you essentially need to brake a car length later. Shorten the car length, the easier it is to get that gap from braking. You can also turn in sooner from coming around another car. I would imagine cars being 1m longer than 10 years ago is more significant than being 20cm wider.

 

Exactly. It's just obvious that if the car is longer then it is more difficult to overtake.



#5304 Jvr

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 09:54

Merc with 18 inch wheels.

 

 

uubTuqt.jpg



#5305 Ben1445

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 10:44

They look fine. Different, but fine.

#5306 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 11:02

And now imagine them with wheel covers with flashing christmas lights...Then they suddenly will look a lot less fine.



#5307 SenorSjon

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 11:13

Tron-rims. :D



#5308 Ben1445

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 11:22

And now imagine them with wheel covers with flashing christmas lights...Then they suddenly will look a lot less fine.

I’ll reserve judgement until I see them

#5309 Beri

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 11:30

And now imagine them with wheel covers with flashing christmas lights...Then they suddenly will look a lot less fine.


The travesty that will be..

#5310 Sterzo

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 12:07

Autosport.com's headline story at the moment is about Racing Point's Andy Green commenting on the 2021 aero regulations, the headline being that the cars will be nasty to drive. Now Andy Green's brain and his abilities are on a different planet from mine, but I'll stick my neck out and say: wait to see what they're like. Here's the conversation I would have:

 

Green: "the 2021 Formula 1 cars will be a "nasty piece of work to drive."

Sterzo: "Hmm, could be good."

Green: "They will be aerodynamically quite unstable."

Sterzo: "Yippee!"

Green: "You want cars that are a bit more predictable, so that drivers can attack."

Sterzo: "No, predictable cars mean there's less difference between drivers, and you can't attack."

Green: "We're not in charge of writing the rules."

Sterzo: "Thank goodness for that! The teams shouldn't be."

Green: "There are some areas where it's extremely restrictive to a point where it's almost impossible to design anything."

Sterzo: "Exactly what we need, otherwise you clever folk would work round the rules in no time at all."


Edited by Sterzo, 09 December 2019 - 12:07.


#5311 DinocoBlue

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 12:49

They look proper chunky. I'm guessing its just a visual thing, surely not actually heavier.



#5312 ARTGP

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 12:58

I don't know why Green is complaining. They all said the same thing about the 2019 front wings....Yet here we are. 

 

If you think your aero makes your car unstable, then use less of it.... :p



#5313 OO7

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 15:30

They look proper chunky. I'm guessing its just a visual thing, surely not actually heavier.

They're heavier and one of the reasons for the minimum weight increase for 2021.



#5314 as65p

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 15:42

Autosport.com's headline story at the moment is about Racing Point's Andy Green commenting on the 2021 aero regulations, the headline being that the cars will be nasty to drive. Now Andy Green's brain and his abilities are on a different planet from mine, but I'll stick my neck out and say: wait to see what they're like. Here's the conversation I would have:

 

Green: "the 2021 Formula 1 cars will be a "nasty piece of work to drive."

Sterzo: "Hmm, could be good."

Green: "They will be aerodynamically quite unstable."

Sterzo: "Yippee!"

Green: "You want cars that are a bit more predictable, so that drivers can attack."

Sterzo: "No, predictable cars mean there's less difference between drivers, and you can't attack."

Green: "We're not in charge of writing the rules."

Sterzo: "Thank goodness for that! The teams shouldn't be."

Green: "There are some areas where it's extremely restrictive to a point where it's almost impossible to design anything."

Sterzo: "Exactly what we need, otherwise you clever folk would work round the rules in no time at all."

 

Your responses are spot-on. :up: Oh please, make it so. :clap:



#5315 Boing Ball

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 15:46

It's F1, we should be careful what we wish for, because we might get it and then some more. F1 tires had started to look really small as the cars reached the boaty 2016 dimensions. Then we got wider and slightly taller tires in 2017. Yay! Finally a fix! Now, the some more has arrived and the cars are starting to look small compared to the tires.



#5316 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 16:13

Merc with 18 inch wheels.


uubTuqt.jpg


:lol: Look at that clown car. F1 is such a mess.

#5317 RA2

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 17:09

And now imagine them with wheel covers with flashing christmas lights...Then they suddenly will look a lot less fine.

 

 

 

monkeylectric.jpg?width=600&height=315&a

 

aaron_vidpro_artpack_540.gif


Edited by RA2, 09 December 2019 - 17:21.


#5318 Beri

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 18:13



monkeylectric.jpg?width=600&height=315&a

aaron_vidpro_artpack_540.gif


Oh boy..

#5319 ch103

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 20:30

Unpopular Opinion.  The top 6 (Merc, Fer, RB) will lap the field in Melbourne 2021.



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#5320 Beri

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 20:44

Unpopular Opinion. The top 6 (Merc, Fer, RB) will lap the field in Melbourne 2021.


Even more an unpopular opinion, Ferrari will tail the two other mentioned.

#5321 statman

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Posted 21 December 2019 - 13:23

Brown also revealed that McLaren are “losing lots of money” in F1, but are sticking around because they expect the series to become “sustainable” under the budget cap from 2021. “Formula 1 we are losing lots of money, but the new cost cap is coming in, sponsorship is going really well. We see the trajectory of Formula 1 becoming sustainable, so that’s why we are now looking at sportscars.

 

https://www.planetf1...of-money-in-f1/



#5322 Fatgadget

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Posted 22 December 2019 - 18:34

Brown also revealed that McLaren are “losing lots of money” in F1, but are sticking around because they expect the series to become “sustainable” under the budget cap from 2021. “Formula 1 we are losing lots of money, but the new cost cap is coming in, sponsorship is going really well. We see the trajectory of Formula 1 becoming sustainable, so that’s why we are now looking at sportscars.

 

https://www.planetf1...of-money-in-f1/

Hardly a surprise McLaren losing money on their F1 operations. And I'd imagine Williams too. They no longer the heavy weights they used to be. It also wouldn't surprise me them still spending as much if not more than when they were at the sharp end of the grid.



#5323 FNG

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Posted 22 December 2019 - 19:53

They all lose money, even Merc. F1 is not break even or a profit maker. Wasn't it revealed that Merc will stay in only if Toto can get them sustainable on sponsorship alone?



#5324 Kalmake

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Posted 22 December 2019 - 20:58

Making direct profit out of F1 operations isn't the goal when the company is more than just a team. Williams too is more than a team these days.



#5325 Beri

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Posted 23 December 2019 - 08:32

Making profit of F1 is what ruined many teams before. Teams should be in it for racing. Not for corporate gains like making money.

Edited by Beri, 23 December 2019 - 08:32.


#5326 Clatter

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 09:11

Making profit of F1 is what ruined many teams before. Teams should be in it for racing. Not for corporate gains like making money.

Which teams have been ruined by making profits? Seems to me that its the ones making losses that are ruined.

#5327 Beri

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 09:46

Which teams have been ruined by making profits? Seems to me that its the ones making losses that are ruined.


The following is only my opinion. But it is not that bankruptcy was always a part of a team being ruined. I could name, for example, McLaren. They were top dog end of the 90ies and the entire 00s. Yet their management was laughable at one moment. They only eyed the money and when they lost Vodafone, they only went with Honda because they would fill the void. Instead of creating a structure that would suffice the team to continue to exist, they wanted to keep up appearances and just went completely off grid with their budget. Had they chosen a humble road, like Renault did mid 00s, it would have been totally different. It is what made the whole McLaren Honda story amusing and very sad to me. Now that they have toned down and are humble once more, it is great to see what they managed to do last season.
But it was the whole idea of bagging money that brought them down in the first place.
I could also name examples of Toyota, Honda and Jaguar/Ford. All were in F1 because of marketing. But when the economical crisis came, they left in a heartbeat. Mercedes will also one day retract their works team once it is financially (marketing wise seen) not attractive anymore.
It is this whole idea of marketing and making money that is ruining racing. It is the soul reason why we are talking about entertainment and not about sport anymore.
I'll bet you a tenner if the grid would exist only of garagistes, with no big ass multi zillion dollar car company behind them, racing would be much better because of the easier rule making, the absence of egomaniac behavior and the lack of politics. But since the mid 90s, all changed with the arrival of Mercedes and followed by the Japanese guys. Before that, only Ferrari had their own works team after Renault left.

Car manufacturers should only build engines and be kept away from rule making or governing the sport. And not be turning it into a media hyped frenzy of entertainment where a good race is called when there were a ton of overtakes.

#5328 nonobaddog

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Posted 24 December 2019 - 19:08

I can only speak for myself. I am pretty tired of processional F1 races. I personally know a guy who was a F1 fanatic and has refused to watch a race for the last 2 years. If the rules don't change I will probably check out as well.

 

The current situation might be fine for you but it's not fine for lots of other people.

 

I agree with this too.  I used to be a big F1 fan.  I went to my first race in person at Nurbergring in 1971 and it was spectacular.  Now I don't even watch them on television.  I check the results after three or four races into the season and then I check in here.  If it is all the same crap racing and all the same blah, blah, blah I can skip the season and not miss a thing.

Some people gush about how wonderful it is now.  That is great for them.  The world needs more happy people.  Personally I don't see it.  If I had never heard of F1 and then watched my first race today I would find it boring and would not see a good reason to watch another one.



#5329 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 25 December 2019 - 13:26

Exactly. It's just obvious that if the car is longer then it is more difficult to overtake.

Look at how easy it is to over take a car versus a lorry...

#5330 pdac

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Posted 25 December 2019 - 18:18

Look at how easy it is to over take a car versus a lorry...

 

Yes - think about those times when you've been stuck behind a lorry overtaking another lorry (probably travel another mile before they're done).



#5331 Pete_f1

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 13:17

If you want better racing then ultimately the speeds will have to come down

#5332 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 14:57

If you want better racing then ultimately the speeds will have to come down

Much longer braking distances, fewer G's in corners. Lighter cars with less power.



#5333 Henri Greuter

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 15:11

Much longer braking distances, fewer G's in corners. Lighter cars with less power.

 

More important: less downforce



#5334 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 15:20

More important: less downforce

Not all cars with zero downforce are good at overtaking. Look at the tricks Formula E needs. And there the drivers get to choose between regen at 200 meters or braking 50 meters.
I've seen recent GT races with really long straights where they just can't get out of the slipstream or manage a later brake point.



#5335 Henri Greuter

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 15:28

Not all cars with zero downforce are good at overtaking. Look at the tricks Formula E needs. And there the drivers get to choose between regen at 200 meters or braking 50 meters.
I've seen recent GT races with really long straights where they just can't get out of the slipstream or manage a later brake point.

There is a difference between zero downforce and less downforce.

One of the current problems I thik is that because of the current high downforce levels the cornerspeeds have become too high, no much need for braking and be outbraked as a result.



#5336 ElectricBoogie

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 19:38

There is a difference between zero downforce and less downforce.

One of the current problems I thik is that because of the current high downforce levels the cornerspeeds have become too high, no much need for braking and be outbraked as a result.

This is very true. But removing downforce would do little without double brake distances to go along with that. Such an easy win.



#5337 PayasYouRace

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Posted 27 December 2019 - 20:07

This is very true. But removing downforce would do little without double brake distances to go along with that. Such an easy win.

 

Removing downforce would increase braking distances massively.

 

Edit: For two reasons. One, it would increase the speed difference between the end of the straight and the corner apex, which in itself is due to higher straightline speeds and lower corner speeds. Two, much of the braking performance comes from the increased grip from the tyres due to the downforce.



#5338 Beri

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 16:27

Much longer braking distances, fewer G's in corners. Lighter cars with less power.


Just add steel disc brakes instead of carbon composite ones. That's all you would have to do.

#5339 PayasYouRace

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 19:37

Just add steel disc brakes instead of carbon composite ones. That's all you would have to do.

 

Not necessarily because a lot of the incredible braking power comes from the tyres. If you can lock your wheels under braking, you have brakes that are too good.



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#5340 Ivanhoe

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 19:54

You need carbon brakes for the heat dissipation and thermal expansion. Can’t use steel discs in the pinacle of motorsports, that’s so 1970’s.



#5341 Beri

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 19:59

You need carbon brakes for the heat dissipation and thermal expansion. Can’t use steel discs in the pinacle of motorsports, that’s so 1970’s.


Last decade the pinnacle of Murican motorsports still had steel brake discs. Worked fine there then.

#5342 OO7

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 20:35

Braking has little to do with it in my opinion.  If the car behind can't get within 10 car lengths, you can adjust the brake distances as much as you please and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.



#5343 Beri

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 20:54

Braking has little to do with it in my opinion. If the car behind can't get within 10 car lengths, you can adjust the brake distances as much as you please and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.


It is all coherent ofcourse. It is not that only one solution will bring the magic solution needed. But the longer the braking distance, the more can happen. Same goes with faster cars. Faster cars didn't necessarily bring better racing.

#5344 Clatter

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 21:16

You need carbon brakes for the heat dissipation and thermal expansion. Can’t use steel discs in the pinacle of motorsports, that’s so 1970’s.

 


They don't need them. They are used because they give better performance at a lower weight. Steel brakes would work just fine, and with modern manufacturing techniques, I doubt we would notice any difference.

#5345 OO7

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 21:52

It is all coherent ofcourse. It is not that only one solution will bring the magic solution needed. But the longer the braking distance, the more can happen. Same goes with faster cars. Faster cars didn't necessarily bring better racing.

Increasing braking distances will do very little because the predominant issue is that cars can't even get close enough the vast majority of the time.  Tempering aero wake is the game changer in my opinion.  Also a reduction in downforce isn't necessary to increase braking distances, just reducing the effectiveness of the brakes would do that.  Also note that in 2014 the cars were much slower (less downforce), yet can we say the reduction in braking effectiveness over the current generation made much of a difference to the racing and if the answer is no, how much slower would we like the cars to become?



#5346 Beri

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 22:19

I believe you seem to skip over the part where I've said it is just one of the many possible solutions.

#5347 OO7

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Posted 28 December 2019 - 23:43

I believe you seem to skip over the part where I've said it is just one of the many possible solutions.

The thing is I don't see it as a solution at all really.  Increasing braking distances (substantially) would help with overtaking where cars need to slow down from high speed e.g 200 mph to perhaps 130 mph, but the chasing car will need to be very close ('very close' being the primary issue by a significant margin) to make this work and modern circuits don't feature many of these opportunities, as they generally lack such configurations.  Silverstone (Hanger Straight and into Stowe) is an example of such a layout and we do see passing into Stowe as long as the chasing car is close enough and this without extended braking distances.



#5348 nonobaddog

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 05:52

Just get rid of the brake disks completely.  They could use regenerative braking only(add this to the front wheels).  It would make the cars lighter.  It could even make the cars shorter...   as they crash into the walls.      :)



#5349 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:27

Last decade the pinnacle of Murican motorsports still had steel brake discs. Worked fine there then.


But they use carbon now because they are actually cheaper, since they last for multiple meetings.

#5350 Beri

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 15:56

But they use carbon now because they are actually cheaper, since they last for multiple meetings.


F1 teams replace brake discs every weekend and, most likely, also during the weekends itself. So, in effect F1 is different in that approach. Steel brake discs would be cheaper on this case for F1.