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2021 engine formula: political wrangling, technical details, aesthetics...


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Poll: Pick and choose! (418 member(s) have cast votes)

Extra 3000rpm?

  1. Yay (377 votes [90.19%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 90.19%

  2. Nay (41 votes [9.81%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.81%

More prescriptive engine design, standard energy store etc

  1. Yay (210 votes [50.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.24%

  2. Nay (208 votes [49.76%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 49.76%

Removing MGU-H, more tactical use of MGU-K

  1. Yay (308 votes [73.68%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 73.68%

  2. Nay (110 votes [26.32%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.32%

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#3301 Beri

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Posted 07 November 2018 - 12:48

I believe in general share prices are on the upside if a company cuts ties with a disruptive branch/company in its midst. If Mercedes or Ferrari will rebel and drop out of Formula One, I dont think it will affect the stock price that much.

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#3302 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 07 November 2018 - 17:21

I believe in general share prices are on the upside if a company cuts ties with a disruptive branch/company in its midst. If Mercedes or Ferrari will rebel and drop out of Formula One, I dont think it will affect the stock price that much.

Really? You don’t think the lost of a 5 and a 4 time world champion plus two major brands exiting the sport wouldn’t hurt the share price of F1?

#3303 Clatter

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Posted 07 November 2018 - 21:12

Really? You don’t think the lost of a 5 and a 4 time world champion plus two major brands exiting the sport wouldn’t hurt the share price of F1?

 


Did the share price drop when past top drivers retired? If the major brands walked it might cause a short term loss, but we could well find that competition gets closer and the racing better, which could grow the price.

#3304 pdac

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Posted 07 November 2018 - 23:36

Really? You don’t think the lost of a 5 and a 4 time world champion plus two major brands exiting the sport wouldn’t hurt the share price of F1?

 

I don't. The whole history stuff is overrated. People follow F1 because it's F1. People will still attend the races and people will most certainly watch it on TV.



#3305 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 07:09


Did the share price drop when past top drivers retired? If the major brands walked it might cause a short term loss, but we could well find that competition gets closer and the racing better, which could grow the price.

Drivers are totally different too teams...

We will have to agree to disagree on this one! :)

#3306 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 07:13

I don't. The whole history stuff is overrated. People follow F1 because it's F1. People will still attend the races and people will most certainly watch it on TV.

If all the teams were like Haas or FI, then F1 wouldn’t be as interesting or marketable - the fact is F1 currently has 4 global we’ll know vehicle marques racing - which makes it more appealing and valuable.

You honestly don’t expect liberty to take a gamble on there multi billion dollar investment - as I bet there business plan isn’t to owe it for as long as Bernie did...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 08 November 2018 - 07:13.


#3307 Clatter

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 13:13

Drivers are totally different too teams...

We will have to agree to disagree on this one! :)

Fine, but your the one that brought up the drivers.

#3308 Clatter

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 13:14

If all the teams were like Haas or FI, then F1 wouldn’t be as interesting or marketable - the fact is F1 currently has 4 global we’ll know vehicle marques racing - which makes it more appealing and valuable.

You honestly don’t expect liberty to take a gamble on there multi billion dollar investment - as I bet there business plan isn’t to owe it for as long as Bernie did...

The value of F1 was built on teams like Haas.

#3309 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 19:07

The value of F1 was built on teams like Haas.

As you said “was”...

#3310 pdac

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 22:04

If all the teams were like Haas or FI, then F1 wouldn’t be as interesting or marketable - the fact is F1 currently has 4 global we’ll know vehicle marques racing - which makes it more appealing and valuable.

You honestly don’t expect liberty to take a gamble on there multi billion dollar investment - as I bet there business plan isn’t to owe it for as long as Bernie did...

 

But, for many years now, it's not been interesting, yet it seems to be marketable. I don't put that down to the teams that are present. I'm not sure whether Liberty will but, if they did, I think it would turn out to be not such a big gamble.



#3311 statman

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 13:10



 

No Porsche in 2021

 

 

Different sources confirm to AMUS that Porsche has finally and definitively blown off a Formula 1 entry. Without a stripped-down hybrid technology and with the burden of the exhaust scandal a commitment in the premier class makes no sense.
 
The F1 management has received no official cancellation from Porsche, however, the expectations were low: After the failed attempt to implement a new engine regulation with slimmed-down hybrid drive without an MGU-H for 2021, the chances for a Porsche to enter fell to zero.

 

 

 



Lamborghini is also out:

 

With the new rules set to be introduced in 2021 with cheaper and simplified engines at the top of the list, the potential retention of the MGU-H system has put off many potential manufacturers from joining the sport and in this case it has been no exception.

 

Former Ferrari team principal turned Lamborghini CEO Stefano Domenicali also weighed in on the unappetising prospect of starting an F1 team with the sport in its current state.

"The investment needed just to participate, let alone win, is too high," he told Auto Bild.

"As long as there is a two-class society in F1, it's is not a playing field for us.

 

but Chase Carey is still optimistic:

 

F1 still hopeful over new 2021 manufacturer

 

:rolleyes:



#3312 HistoryFan

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 14:21

no way.



#3313 SenorSjon

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 14:32

Perhaps a Samsung sponsored Hyundai when they sign Hankook tires?



#3314 saudoso

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 12:26

See, McLaren is leading the way to fix the problems with F1. They are starting an Indy team:
https://www.mclaren....sident-indycar/

#3315 Vielleicht

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 20:06

Screen-Shot-2018-12-05-at-19-59-40.png



#3316 HistoryFan

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 20:34

hydrogen?



#3317 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 20:45

Screen-Shot-2018-12-05-at-19-59-40.png


There will be a “get out clause” somewhere...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 05 December 2018 - 20:46.


#3318 Vielleicht

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 20:59

There will be a “get out clause” somewhere...

Almost undoubtably, but that's kind of secondary to me. The real news for me is we've got a huge manufacture in VW ending ICE development from 2026 and the likes of Jaguar thinking of becoming an EV only brand by around the same time - before the end of the next F1 engine rules cycle.

 

This is real and this is now. F1 has some huge decisions to make.



#3319 thegforcemaybewithyou

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 21:01

The tweet only says development, there'll still be VW cars with conventional engines long after that date.

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#3320 Vielleicht

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 21:07

The tweet only says development, there'll still be VW cars with conventional engines long after that date.

Mhm. But after that point why sink hundreds of millions into something like an F1 program if you've ended development of your ICEs? The most you'd want to do is race ones that you've already developed to continue to get the best out of them.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that F1 should go electric. I'm saying the effects of the shift in the automotive industry are(or should be) affecting F1's long term decisions about it's future now. Not in five or ten years, but now.


Edited by Vielleicht, 05 December 2018 - 21:15.


#3321 F1 Mike

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 22:09

I can see a time when F1 returns to the days of more privateer teams with engines supplied by racing engine manufacturers such as Cosworth. The engine manufacturers have had too much influence in the sport in recent years and these types of developments can only be a good thing for the SPORT of F1.

F1 should not be pandering to the requests of major car brands, they are going to be going in a different direction...

Edited by F1 Mike, 05 December 2018 - 22:11.


#3322 PayasYouRace

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 23:11

I suppose what this could mean for F1 would be to stop development on the ICE too without abandoning it as the primary power source of the car. F1 already had a period of frozen ICE engine regulations so perhaps the way forward would be to slowly freeze ICE development and encourage hybrid development?

VW stopping ICE development won’t mean in 2026 every new car sold on the road will be pure electric. So I think that’s what F1 needs to mirror. It could move towards possibly even a spec ICE as the heart of the power train and the manufacturers could focus on the electric side that is relevant to them.



#3323 Kalmake

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 23:20

The original plan had these engines almost completely frozen by 2018.



#3324 nonobaddog

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 23:26

There must be too many people going to the races and they need a way to fix that.



#3325 SenorSjon

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 09:53

Perhaps they should fix this:

 

DtwszKjWoAI8FZv.jpg



#3326 phrank

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:05

Incredible, they really look like trucks now. But its the back end especially that got longer? In the picture it should have aligned both models at the front wheels



#3327 PayasYouRace

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:28

Incredible, they really look like trucks now. But its the back end especially that got longer? In the picture it should have aligned both models at the front wheels

 

There's a lot more equipment behind the driver in a modern car. In 2007 it was a small fuel tank (refuelling was allowed) engine and gearbox and only some ancillary components. Now they have to fit the full race fuel tank, engine, turbo, two motor generator units, and battery pack, all while maintaining a workable centre of gravity and competitive aerodynamics. There's not really much change at the front.



#3328 phrank

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:20

There's a lot more equipment behind the driver in a modern car. In 2007 it was a small fuel tank (refuelling was allowed) engine and gearbox and only some ancillary components. Now they have to fit the full race fuel tank, engine, turbo, two motor generator units, and battery pack, all while maintaining a workable centre of gravity and competitive aerodynamics. There's not really much change at the front.

But if you would force per rules to have a short wheel base, that would mean that the body would get wider to fit all, I would think? Look also how much wider the 2007 car is and how much underfloor is exposed in the 2019 version



#3329 TomNokoe

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:22

There's a lot more equipment behind the driver in a modern car. In 2007 it was a small fuel tank (refuelling was allowed) engine and gearbox and only some ancillary components. Now they have to fit the full race fuel tank, engine, turbo, two motor generator units, and battery pack, all while maintaining a workable centre of gravity and competitive aerodynamics. There's not really much change at the front.

They managed fine in 2014-2016. Those cars were still quite short, if on the heavy side. Weight is free lap-time.

Edited by TomNokoe, 07 December 2018 - 11:26.


#3330 SenorSjon

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:35

There's a lot more equipment behind the driver in a modern car. In 2007 it was a small fuel tank (refuelling was allowed) engine and gearbox and only some ancillary components. Now they have to fit the full race fuel tank, engine, turbo, two motor generator units, and battery pack, all while maintaining a workable centre of gravity and competitive aerodynamics. There's not really much change at the front.

 

The eighties/early nineties are shorter than the 2007 ones with a 3,5 liter engine in the back and more fuel. ;)

 

I do think the mandatory weight distribition has a cause in the lengthening of the cars, with a demand for more floorspace for aero reasons as well.



#3331 Henri Greuter

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:47

They managed fine in 2014-2016. Those cars were still quite short, if on the heavy side. Weight is free lap-time.



added length means added material means added weight......

Another striking detail about the 2019, which you already saw this year too: Despite the length of the car: look to how far the side pods go forward. But also: look and see how the widest part of the side pod is not reaching the widest part of the floor any longer. Instead of using the maximum width of the car to the max, everything is narrowed and as narrow as possible all because of the aero. the 2007 uses the full width allowed for the sidepods


No limit on wheel base and overall length as well as the mandatory weight balance all leads to this. But in theory it is possible to reduce the overall length and wheelbase massively and have a number of components now stored in-line over the length of the car repositioned and make use of the maximum width of the cars instead.
Should such rule be announces, you will hear the aerocrap specialists howl from anger, disappointment and frustration about being so obstructed in their work.....

Edited by Henri Greuter, 07 December 2018 - 11:48.


#3332 Kalmake

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:58

Perhaps they should fix this: [pics]

They are doing something as wheelbase will be limited in the rules.



#3333 phrank

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:23

They are doing something as wheelbase will be limited in the rules.

Its only marginal change from what they have now, and think most agree current cars are a bit too long..



#3334 SenorSjon

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:33

They also add kg's for the umpteenth time. from 740 to 743 kg. A far cry from the once nimble F1 cars.



#3335 TomNokoe

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 13:41

They also add kg's for the umpteenth time. from 740 to 743 kg. A far cry from the once nimble F1 cars.

Montoya discussing just that on this week's F1 Podcast.

Link

Edited by TomNokoe, 07 December 2018 - 13:42.


#3336 Scotracer

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 13:53

There's a lot more equipment behind the driver in a modern car. In 2007 it was a small fuel tank (refuelling was allowed) engine and gearbox and only some ancillary components. Now they have to fit the full race fuel tank, engine, turbo, two motor generator units, and battery pack, all while maintaining a workable centre of gravity and competitive aerodynamics. There's not really much change at the front.

 

The fuel tank in a 2007 car was probably the same size as todays. They could put in ~100kg of fuel if they wanted to. 



#3337 Boing Ball

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 15:37

They also add kg's for the umpteenth time. from 740 to 743 kg. A far cry from the once nimble F1 cars.

 

What is the excuse this time? They stretched the cars a bit again?



#3338 nonobaddog

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 15:48

What is the excuse this time? They stretched the cars a bit again?

 

Mercedes likes big cars.



#3339 SenorSjon

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 15:51

What is the excuse this time? They stretched the cars a bit again?

 

Teams couldn't reach 740, so they increased the limit.  :down:

 

 

They should have lowered it to get teams innovating on that front again. You could also cut a meter from the cars. Saves a lot of weight.  :p  



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#3340 PayasYouRace

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 18:25

They managed fine in 2014-2016. Those cars were still quite short, if on the heavy side. Weight is free lap-time.


They were certainly not quite short, especially compared to a 2007 car as above. Really they’ve been about this long since the banning of refuelling though back then they needed a larger fuel tank and less equipment. Since hybrids have been in use the length hasn’t changed significantly.

#3341 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 18:29

Almost undoubtably, but that's kind of secondary to me. The real news for me is we've got a huge manufacture in VW ending ICE development from 2026 and the likes of Jaguar thinking of becoming an EV only brand by around the same time - before the end of the next F1 engine rules cycle.

This is real and this is now. F1 has some huge decisions to make.


The majority of the world has no interest in EVs. That a company run by proven liars and crooks is trying and failing to fix their shattered reputation is of no concern to F1.

#3342 TomNokoe

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 18:55

They were certainly not quite short, especially compared to a 2007 car as above. Really they’ve been about this long since the banning of refuelling though back then they needed a larger fuel tank and less equipment. Since hybrids have been in use the length hasn’t changed significantly.

2015 Merc 3500mm
2018 Merc 3726mm

I'm pretty confident that the 2014 Merc was even shorter, which puts it into the ballpark for 2021 regs. Which is still too long.

McLaren MP4/4 2875mm

Edited by TomNokoe, 07 December 2018 - 18:56.


#3343 loki

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 18:55

The majority of the world has no interest in EVs. That a company run by proven liars and crooks is trying and failing to fix their shattered reputation is of no concern to F1.

Perhaps the majority of the world have no interest in an EV but those that make the majority of vehicles on the road these days are discontinuing sedans in big markets and investing large amounts in EV and hybrid.  China is leading the way with about a million sold a year.  



#3344 Vielleicht

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 18:58

The majority of the world has no interest in EVs. That a company run by proven liars and crooks is trying and failing to fix their shattered reputation is of no concern to F1.

You talk about it as though the journey is finished when by all accounts it is only just starting.
 
It's not just about VW. There's a growing list of countries announcing bans on the sale of petrol and diesel cars to come into effect as soon as 2025 and through to 2050. When you take into account the need for global action on greenhouse emissions which was agreed on in the Paris Accords then it would be naive to suggest that number is going to do anything other than rise. Also recent trends in actually tackling said global emissions suggest these targets are only going to get more ambitious and change faster paced because, frankly, we are not yet doing enough.

 

So it's of every concern to F1 to take note of what is happening in the industry that gave it life. That industry is now starting an inevitable shift towards low carbon solutions, along with the rest of the world. F1 doesn't have to follow*, but my point was that it has to affect their decision making now.

 

 

*if they think they can make 'legacy' racing profitable and abandon the leading edge of automotive technology image pretty much for good.



#3345 nonobaddog

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 19:03

I was pretty sure somebody would come along and say EV's are the most important thing in the world (except maybe for a degree in gender studies)



#3346 Ben1445

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 19:10

I was pretty sure somebody would come along and say EV's are the most important thing in the world (except maybe for a degree in gender studies)

Oh p*** off. This kind of reductive treatment of other people's arguments, to reduce them to stereotypes and mockery, is a detriment to no one other than yourself. 



#3347 nonobaddog

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 19:18

Oh p*** off. This kind of reductive treatment of other people's arguments, to reduce them to stereotypes and mockery, is a detriment to no one other than yourself. 

 

Obviously your opinion is more valuable so I would have expected something more elegant than "piss off" from you.



#3348 nonobaddog

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 20:37

 

Now we've got the chicken or egg rubbish.

 

I ordered a chicken and an egg from Amazon.  I'll let you know.



#3349 PayasYouRace

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 20:43

2015 Merc 3500mm
2018 Merc 3726mm
I'm pretty confident that the 2014 Merc was even shorter, which puts it into the ballpark for 2021 regs. Which is still too long.
McLaren MP4/4 2875mm


Those numbers seem to back me up.

#3350 Henri Greuter

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 20:45

They also add kg's for the umpteenth time. from 740 to 743 kg. A far cry from the once nimble F1 cars.

 

 

For all of you complaining about the weight of the cars, read the opening post on this thread on one of the sister forums of Atlas.

You might read som figures that will shock you....

 

 

https://forums.autos...ight-breakdown/