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2021 engine formula: political wrangling, technical details, aesthetics...


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Poll: Pick and choose! (505 member(s) have cast votes)

Extra 3000rpm?

  1. Yay (455 votes [90.10%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 90.10%

  2. Nay (50 votes [9.90%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.90%

More prescriptive engine design, standard energy store etc

  1. Yay (257 votes [50.89%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.89%

  2. Nay (248 votes [49.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 49.11%

Removing MGU-H, more tactical use of MGU-K

  1. Yay (370 votes [73.27%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 73.27%

  2. Nay (135 votes [26.73%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.73%

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#3401 nonobaddog

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 21:26

Why should anyone care as long as the performance is there?

 

That depends on what you mean by "the performance is there".  If the same car were lighter it would have better performance.  One rule of thumb is 10 kg costs 0.3 seconds per lap.  The heavier car is slower than it could be so is the performance there?  [sarcasm]If they would lighten the cars they could go back down to 100 kg of fuel instead of 105 and save the world by emitting less CO2.[/sarcasm]



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#3402 Danyy

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 21:34

Another gem courtesy of Alonso
https://www.instagra...id=yxi8q7d47yiy

#3403 nonobaddog

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 21:47

More heavy again, likely to accomodate even longer cars .....

 

As for the prescribed weight distribution...

Got me wondereing, when was this introduced and why?

 

I vaguely remember something about this being done on behalf of or even because of Pirelli in order to eliminate entire freedom of weight distribution, one factor that could be a handicap for Pirelli to produce a tyre that would suit all cars and prevent them having difficulties to provide tires that had to cope with a wider margin of weight distribution of the cars. Couldn't find approval (yet) about this theory. So likely it was because of other reasons that elude me right now...

 

It looks like the weight distribution was first dictated in the 2011 Tech Regs in Article 4.2.  Prior to 2011 Article 4.2 dealt with ballast but only said it had to require tools to remove it.



#3404 PayasYouRace

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 22:05

I care about making the cars look and sound as great as this while Alonso and Hamilton go at it, if this doesn’t get your blood pumping I don’t know what will!

 

And the weight of the cars is an issue there because...?

 

That depends on what you mean by "the performance is there".  If the same car were lighter it would have better performance.  One rule of thumb is 10 kg costs 0.3 seconds per lap.  The heavier car is slower than it could be so is the performance there?  [sarcasm]If they would lighten the cars they could go back down to 100 kg of fuel instead of 105 and save the world by emitting less CO2.[/sarcasm]

 

I'll be more specific then. The current cars are the heaviest and the longest in F1 history, but they are also the fastest. So why does it matter? They don't need to make them lighter to claw back any lost performance.



#3405 Kalmake

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 23:08

Lower inertia of the lighter car is makes it more "nervous" and arguably more exiting to watch and possibly harder to control.



#3406 Danyy

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 23:16

And the weight of the cars is an issue there because...?



I'll be more specific then. The current cars are the heaviest and the longest in F1 history, but they are also the fastest. So why does it matter? They don't need to make them lighter to claw back any lost performance.

The weight is not quantifiable if you’re just watching one without seeing the other on a split screen that’s true. But it is if you’re watching them side by side, they sound and manoeuvre a lot better and that definitely makes a difference to how people consume it. If you ask any F1 fan whether they would prefer looking at my video compared to today’s action tell me they wouldn’t choose mine a thousand times over!

Edited by Danyy, 15 December 2018 - 23:27.


#3407 PayasYouRace

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 23:41

The weight is not quantifiable if you’re just watching one without seeing the other on a split screen that’s true. But it is if you’re watching them side by side, they sound and manoeuvre a lot better and that definitely makes a difference to how people consume it. If you ask any F1 fan whether they would prefer looking at my video compared to today’s action tell me they wouldn’t choose mine a thousand times over!

 

Let's leave the sound out of it because that has nothing to do with the weight. The way they manoeuvre is a function of the tyre grip characteristics as much as anything. Coincidentally I was just on Instagram seeing a side by side video of Lewis Hamilton going through round Silverstone, in 2007 and this year. The videos start in sync at the old S/F line and by Chapel the current car is well ahead. The way it negotiates those high speed esses you'd never guess it weighed a good 100kg more.

 

Your particular video is exciting because of what was going on in it. It's the same as why Dijon 1979 is eternally popular. The cars' weights don't come into it.



#3408 Wuzak

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 06:38

As for the prescribed weight distribution...

Got me wondereing, when was this introduced and why?

 

When Pirelli became the tyre supplier.



#3409 Danyy

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 07:13

Let's leave the sound out of it because that has nothing to do with the weight. The way they manoeuvre is a function of the tyre grip characteristics as much as anything. Coincidentally I was just on Instagram seeing a side by side video of Lewis Hamilton going through round Silverstone, in 2007 and this year. The videos start in sync at the old S/F line and by Chapel the current car is well ahead. The way it negotiates those high speed esses you'd never guess it weighed a good 100kg more.

Your particular video is exciting because of what was going on in it. It's the same as why Dijon 1979 is eternally popular. The cars' weights don't come into it.

Oh but it does, sound has everything to do with these heavier ‘power units’. How much enjoyment did you feel seeing today’s tech go round a corner compared to the old cars? If they had kept the previous engines today who knows how much performance they could have got out of them while still keeping the sound up and weight down.

Edited by Danyy, 16 December 2018 - 07:26.


#3410 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 09:26

Oh but it does, sound has everything to do with these heavier ‘power units’. How much enjoyment did you feel seeing today’s tech go round a corner compared to the old cars? If they had kept the previous engines today who knows how much performance they could have got out of them while still keeping the sound up and weight down.

 

It's hard to quantify how much relative enjoyment I get from today's cars vs cars from 10 year ago because I love them all.

 

You're still not actually telling me why or how the weight of the cars affects your viewing of the sport. The sound and the performance are things you can measure, either qualitatively or quantitatively as a viewer. While the weight has an effect on these things, directly or indirectly, it's not something you can just spot from a grandstand or your TV screen.

 

F1 is a formula, and the rules are drawn up to hit performance targets. When the current rules were drawn up for 2017 the intention was to hit a certain performance. If the weights had still been as low the performance would have been hit with a smaller gain in downforce or tyre grip. Do you understand?

 

Your video of Hamilton and Alonso at Spa could easily be re-created in today's cars and apart from the sound it would happen the same. Those 100 kg aren't affecting the spectator or viewer experience.



#3411 Whleroy

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 09:38

If I remember correctly, the weight distribution rule was introduced in order to remove any advantage from not running KERS. In 2009 Braun had taken the title without KERS partly because they had more flexibility to reposition their weight than the teams using KERS.

It's hard to quantify how much relative enjoyment I get from today's cars vs cars from 10 year ago because I love them all.

You're still not actually telling me why or how the weight of the cars affects your viewing of the sport. The sound and the performance are things you can measure, either qualitatively or quantitatively as a viewer. While the weight has an effect on these things, directly or indirectly, it's not something you can just spot from a grandstand or your TV screen.

F1 is a formula, and the rules are drawn up to hit performance targets. When the current rules were drawn up for 2017 the intention was to hit a certain performance. If the weights had still been as low the performance would have been hit with a smaller gain in downforce or tyre grip. Do you understand?

Your video of Hamilton and Alonso at Spa could easily be re-created in today's cars and apart from the sound it would happen the same. Those 100 kg aren't affecting the spectator or viewer experience.


Edited by Whleroy, 16 December 2018 - 09:43.


#3412 Danyy

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 09:55

It's hard to quantify how much relative enjoyment I get from today's cars vs cars from 10 year ago because I love them all.

You're still not actually telling me why or how the weight of the cars affects your viewing of the sport. The sound and the performance are things you can measure, either qualitatively or quantitatively as a viewer. While the weight has an effect on these things, directly or indirectly, it's not something you can just spot from a grandstand or your TV screen.

F1 is a formula, and the rules are drawn up to hit performance targets. When the current rules were drawn up for 2017 the intention was to hit a certain performance. If the weights had still been as low the performance would have been hit with a smaller gain in downforce or tyre grip. Do you understand?

Your video of Hamilton and Alonso at Spa could easily be re-created in today's cars and apart from the sound it would happen the same. Those 100 kg aren't affecting the spectator or viewer experience.

You’re not telling me why making the cars 100kgs heavier makes it any better either. If you can’t notice the difference in how they handle and look fine I’ll except that even though I can see it myself (and the drivers definitely feel the extra weight) but then why change them if you lose the sound - something everyone will definitely notice. There’s no gain in having these power units if the result is bulky cars that handle and sound worse, what’s the point? People used to identify F1 just by hearing that vrooom but not anymore.

Edited by Danyy, 16 December 2018 - 09:56.


#3413 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 11:51

You’re not telling me why making the cars 100kgs heavier makes it any better either. If you can’t notice the difference in how they handle and look fine I’ll except that even though I can see it myself (and the drivers definitely feel the extra weight) but then why change them if you lose the sound - something everyone will definitely notice. There’s no gain in having these power units if the result is bulky cars that handle and sound worse, what’s the point? People used to identify F1 just by hearing that vrooom but not anymore.

 

I never said making them heavier makes things better. I'm saying it makes no difference as long as the performance is still there and I questioned why anyone actually cares.

 

I also pointed out that the weight is only one of many variables that determine how the cars behave on track, and tyre characteristics are as important if not more. Meanwhile you keep trying to steer the discussion to how they sound. That they sound worse is a personal preference and that they handle worse is extremely debatable.



#3414 Henri Greuter

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 12:26

As far as I'm concerned, I don't give a single damn about the fact that the current cars weigh over 700 kg, including driver. I do care about the fact that these things are so long nowadays due to the regulations and therefore need the material and thus weight to remain safe for the driver and perform at the maximum level demanded of the cars.

 

I see people complain about the ever increasing weight yet few are blasting about the fact that these heavyweights are, at least in practice, the fastest F1 cars ever, period.

I really wonder what the outcries over here would be if all of a sudden the cars are regulated to be a full meter shorter than they are right now, turn out to be some 50 kgs or so lighter but also slower than the current freightliners.

 

The current cars are also that heavy because of being so long and thus needing the material to built it up but also, because of their tremendous speeds and the trememdous levels of aero grip generated, the lengthy backbone of the car needs even more material to beef the backbone up in order to remain as stiff as possible and not deformate under the stress of these aero forces...



#3415 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 12:45

freightliners.

 

 

Such length, such weight!

 

66549%20Freightliner,%20Immingham%20-%20



#3416 Henri Greuter

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 13:57

Such length, such weight!

 

66549%20Freightliner,%20Immingham%20-%20

 

 

I was more referring to this ......

 

 

https://freightliner.com/



#3417 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 14:22

I was more referring to this ......

 

 

https://freightliner.com/

 

Never heard of them.



#3418 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 15:37

The weight is not quantifiable if you’re just watching one without seeing the other on a split screen that’s true. But it is if you’re watching them side by side, they sound and manoeuvre a lot better and that definitely makes a difference to how people consume it. If you ask any F1 fan whether they would prefer looking at my video compared to today’s action tell me they wouldn’t choose mine a thousand times over!


Sounds like you didn’t watch the 2006-2008 period live, but I can guarantee you people were constantly complaining that the races were boring - and they were correct.

#3419 nonobaddog

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 15:59

As far as I'm concerned, I don't give a single damn about the fact that the current cars weigh over 700 kg, including driver. I do care about the fact that these things are so long nowadays due to the regulations and therefore need the material and thus weight to remain safe for the driver and perform at the maximum level demanded of the cars.

 

I see people complain about the ever increasing weight yet few are blasting about the fact that these heavyweights are, at least in practice, the fastest F1 cars ever, period.

I really wonder what the outcries over here would be if all of a sudden the cars are regulated to be a full meter shorter than they are right now, turn out to be some 50 kgs or so lighter but also slower than the current freightliners.

 

The current cars are also that heavy because of being so long and thus needing the material to built it up but also, because of their tremendous speeds and the trememdous levels of aero grip generated, the lengthy backbone of the car needs even more material to beef the backbone up in order to remain as stiff as possible and not deformate under the stress of these aero forces...

 

Exactly right.  The excess weight in an F1 car is invisible (except for the tire blisters).  It is the excess length that I don't like.  They look disproportionate and it makes overtaking more difficult.  They just keep growing every year.



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#3420 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 16:40

Exactly right.  The excess weight in an F1 car is invisible (except for the tire blisters).  It is the excess length that I don't like.  They look disproportionate and it makes overtaking more difficult.  They just keep growing every year.

 

Maybe I have some special eyes but I can definitely see it, the current cars are so lazy when rotating compared to the cars from the early 2000's. You can easily spot this when you compare them going through a chicane for example, the current cars look so awkward whilst the lighter cars of the past breezed though them.



#3421 nonobaddog

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 17:23

Maybe I have some special eyes but I can definitely see it, the current cars are so lazy when rotating compared to the cars from the early 2000's. You can easily spot this when you compare them going through a chicane for example, the current cars look so awkward whilst the lighter cars of the past breezed though them.

 

Special eyes or not, you are right, they do look 'lazy' going though tight chicanes.  The excess weight is really only invisible when standing still.  But part of that 'lazy' look is caused by the excess length.  If you have a short car and a bus go through a tight chicane at the same speed - the car will look more nimble.
The Mercedes F1 car is a full foot and a half (45 cm) longer than a 4-door S-Class Mercedes S 560 Sedan and a few cm longer than a 4-door Ford Raptor truck.
 
That being said I am still impressed with the way F1 cars can change directions on S Curves and corners that are not as tight as chicanes.


#3422 Garndell

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 19:31

I was more referring to this ......

 

 

https://freightliner.com/

 

Hey... truck racing lights up my inner child, such fun watching them race. :cool:



#3423 Henri Greuter

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Posted 16 December 2018 - 21:08

 

Special eyes or not, you are right, they do look 'lazy' going though tight chicanes.  The excess weight is really only invisible when standing still.  But part of that 'lazy' look is caused by the excess length.  If you have a short car and a bus go through a tight chicane at the same speed - the car will look more nimble.
The Mercedes F1 car is a full foot and a half (45 cm) longer than a 4-door S-Class Mercedes S 560 Sedan and a few cm longer than a 4-door Ford Raptor truck.
 
That being said I am still impressed with the way F1 cars can change directions on S Curves and corners that are not as tight as chicanes.

 

 

 

I've mentioned it before on several occasions but the iconic Lancia Stratos World championship rally car, from its utter nose tip to its oouter edge of the rear spoiler is a little longer, if not actually fitting entirely within the wheelbase of the longest F1 cars of them all.

 

For the many Alonso fans: have a look on the post Le Mans race victory pics of your hero sitting on the winning car. Notice how small and narrow that car is!

There was a time that Le Mans sportscars were flying carpets compared with the way more compact and nimble F1 cars of the days, nowadays. About the largest  (more correct longest) Le Mans cars ever must be the '70 and '71 917 Langhecks. But I don't think those were over 5.5 meters and more long like the current F1 cars. Was googling for their dimensions but had no quick luck to find something.



#3424 phrank

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 11:41

For years FIA tried to make F1 cars lighter for safety reasons, because this would help reduce them impact of crashes. I wonder what changed their mind?



#3425 Wuzak

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 12:09

For years FIA tried to make F1 cars lighter for safety reasons, because this would help reduce them impact of crashes. I wonder what changed their mind?

 

Actually, weight has been creeping up with additional safety requirements - such as more stringent crash testing.

 

What the FIA have done in the past is to try to limit the speed of the cars - particularly cornering speeds. 

 

The current cars are a product of the panic around the speed of the cars in 2014 and 2015.



#3426 Danyy

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 13:21

Sounds like you didn’t watch the 2006-2008 period live, but I can guarantee you people were constantly complaining that the races were boring - and they were correct.


I don’t know what point you are trying to make but it’s got absolutely nothing to do with weight or sound of the cars if you found the races boring because clearly in later years like 2010 they still sounded louder and weighed less and we had 7 different winners so nothing needed to be changed. And yes I did watch those races, btw you can’t be correct about something that’s subjective.

#3427 Danyy

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 13:30

I never said making them heavier makes things better. I'm saying it makes no difference as long as the performance is still there and I questioned why anyone actually cares.

I also pointed out that the weight is only one of many variables that determine how the cars behave on track, and tyre characteristics are as important if not more. Meanwhile you keep trying to steer the discussion to how they sound. That they sound worse is a personal preference and that they handle worse is extremely debatable.

It’s really not extremely debatable, when you have drivers like Hamilton saying they handle like a bus that clearly says it all.

And according to this own threads poles a lot of people seem to care about making them very similar to what we had before if there is no option to just have an N/A engine outright

Edited by Danyy, 17 December 2018 - 13:36.


#3428 PayasYouRace

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 13:53

It’s really not extremely debatable, when you have drivers like Hamilton saying they handle like a bus that clearly says it all.

And according to this own threads poles a lot of people seem to care about making them very similar to what we had before if there is no option to just have an N/A engine outright


For handling like a bus in Hamilton’s hands it absolutely smokes his own 2007 through the Copse to Chapel section at Silverstone. If there was ever a test of high speed handling in F1 that would be it.

People will always want what we had before. Nostalgia is strong in the F1 world.

#3429 nonobaddog

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 14:09

Actually, weight has been creeping up with additional safety requirements - such as more stringent crash testing.

 

What the FIA have done in the past is to try to limit the speed of the cars - particularly cornering speeds. 

 

The current cars are a product of the panic around the speed of the cars in 2014 and 2015.

 

Not sure I follow you here.  Do you mean panic because the 2014-15 cars were too slow?  Since those were the 2 slowest years in at least the previous decade.



#3430 SenorSjon

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 15:15

For handling like a bus in Hamilton’s hands it absolutely smokes his own 2007 through the Copse to Chapel section at Silverstone. If there was ever a test of high speed handling in F1 that would be it.

People will always want what we had before. Nostalgia is strong in the F1 world.

 

Wider cars, no grooves, wider tires helps a lot for that.



#3431 nonobaddog

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 15:44

Wider cars, no grooves, wider tires helps a lot for that.

 

Yes, they have big, wide, sticky tires that wear out too fast and way too much down force.  Of course they turn.



#3432 phrank

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 15:50

For handling like a bus in Hamilton’s hands it absolutely smokes his own 2007 through the Copse to Chapel section at Silverstone. If there was ever a test of high speed handling in F1 that would be it.

People will always want what we had before. Nostalgia is strong in the F1 world.

There is a difference of course between having a big, heavy, planted car and a light weight, nimble car, that you have to drive with your fingertips



#3433 saudoso

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 16:30

We now have a man running for miss universe. TV is catering for a generation which I share few interests with. It’s a pity F1 fails to see they just don’t care about cars. Hybrid, electric or gutted and parked in a museum, it’s all the same.

I guess 2017 was really my last F1 season.

Edited by saudoso, 17 December 2018 - 16:31.


#3434 Clatter

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 19:03

For years FIA tried to make F1 cars lighter for safety reasons, because this would help reduce them impact of crashes. I wonder what changed their mind?

 


When did the FIA mandate lighter cars on safety grounds?

#3435 phrank

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 19:59

When did the FIA mandate lighter cars on safety grounds?

In the Max Mosley era



#3436 PayasYouRace

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 21:10


When did the FIA mandate lighter cars on safety grounds?


They didn’t specifically do that. However Max Mosley would often point out that lighter cars carried less energy in a crash, which is correct of course. The FIA never actually reduced the minimum weight limit, and even under his leadership it was increased to allow safety features to be added without compromising the cars’ structures.

#3437 Clatter

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 22:10

In the Max Mosley era

 


Is that as specific as you can get? Can you show the actual rule changes that your referring to?

#3438 Kalmake

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 22:32

Refueling was a kind of weight reduction. I remember start crash energy being talked about then.



#3439 Clatter

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 22:48

Refueling was a kind of weight reduction. I remember start crash energy being talked about then.

 


Wasn't introduced for safety though, but to "improve the show". Also it was allowed, but not compulsory.

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#3440 nonobaddog

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 23:30

The "official" reason from FIA for banning refueling for 2010 was cost-cutting.



#3441 Wuzak

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 03:47

Not sure I follow you here.  Do you mean panic because the 2014-15 cars were too slow?  Since those were the 2 slowest years in at least the previous decade.

 

Yes, the panic was that the cars were too slow.

 

Not necessarily from the FIA, but FOM, the teams, broadcasters and fans had a good whinge about it.



#3442 Kalmake

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 09:40

Wasn't introduced for safety though, but to "improve the show". Also it was allowed, but not compulsory.

Well, it's not compulsory to be near minimum weight either. :p

 

I agree safety wasn't the motivation, or at least not high on the list.



#3443 ClubmanGT

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 18:46

It also coincided with the frontal area of the head rest sides. Watch the Benetton and Ferrari in 1996 and they had quite a bulky solution, while the Williams (and iirc Jordan) solutions barely had an aerodynamic influence on the car. And of course the CoG was lowered as well with the torso lower. 

 

But not only aesthetics make me want shorter cars, but I believe it is easier to overtake on street tracks with less car needed to overtake before a corner.

 

Incidentally my favourite Ferrari and from an era where different teams had distinctive designs. 

 

If you stripped the liveries off most cars these days I doubt many could tell the cars apart. 



#3444 pdac

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 00:13

Incidentally my favourite Ferrari and from an era where different teams had distinctive designs. 

 

If you stripped the liveries off most cars these days I doubt many could tell the cars apart. 

 

Drive them a few laps, though, and you'll know which has the Honda PU in the back.



#3445 SenorSjon

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 09:44

Drive them a few laps, though, and you'll know which has the Honda PU in the back.

 

You would have found the McLaren, not the PU.  :rotfl:



#3446 statman

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Posted 20 December 2018 - 14:20

Wolff questions F1's desire to attract new engine manufacturers

 

seems like Toto is just trolling at this point...



#3447 nonobaddog

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Posted 20 December 2018 - 16:05

Nobody at Mercedes wants anything to change, why would they?  Rack up some more easy "_championships_* ".



#3448 statman

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 14:10

F1 Commission meeting cancelled as 2021 deadline approaches



#3449 OvDrone

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 15:02

 

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#3450 loki

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 21:41

The FIA meeting is sporting and tech regs.  Commercial agreements will happen outside the FIA.  In fact the FIA aren't allowed to intervene in commercial matters.  Two of the biggest issues facing the FIA are going to be the reduction in engine costs via proposed elimination of the MGU-K and the budget cap.