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2021 engine formula: political wrangling, technical details, aesthetics...


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Poll: Pick and choose! (467 member(s) have cast votes)

Extra 3000rpm?

  1. Yay (423 votes [90.58%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 90.58%

  2. Nay (44 votes [9.42%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.42%

More prescriptive engine design, standard energy store etc

  1. Yay (243 votes [52.03%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 52.03%

  2. Nay (224 votes [47.97%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 47.97%

Removing MGU-H, more tactical use of MGU-K

  1. Yay (349 votes [74.73%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 74.73%

  2. Nay (118 votes [25.27%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.27%

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#3651 tokengator82

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 01:33

https://legal.fia.co...agent

Gearbox will have 7 gears
Fixed gear ratios for everyone
Higher revs expected/desired (14%)
Increased mgu-k output (+30kw)

Edited by tokengator82, 19 February 2019 - 01:41.


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#3652 OO7

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 02:25

It's not so ridiculous when we remember F1 has a budgets problem and it needs solutions. Compromises will have to be made somewhere. Tendered component supply would be a proven cost saving model that has worked in other series and even in F1 itself (the ECU to name but one). 

Ben, I absolutely agree with you about reducing cost/the cost the be competitive, however if it were up to me, I'd start first with aero and really simplify it.  I wouldn't have any standard parts, so I'd get rid of the mandated neutral section, however the regulations would be structured in such a fashion, so as to limit the cars to 3 aero/airfoil areas of bodywork, the front wing, underbody and rear wing.  I'd drastically cut the cost of aero and open up the mechanical side of development, within reason.



#3653 Neno

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 02:33

Renault is pushing at Liberty for 2021 rules clairifications to be set. Because it's concern they are not being set yet.  And it was promised they would be set late 2018. 



#3654 Wuzak

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 04:44

Ben, I absolutely agree with you about reducing cost/the cost the be competitive, however if it were up to me, I'd start first with aero and really simplify it.  I wouldn't have any standard parts, so I'd get rid of the mandated neutral section, however the regulations would be structured in such a fashion, so as to limit the cars to 3 aero/airfoil areas of bodywork, the front wing, underbody and rear wing.  I'd drastically cut the cost of aero and open up the mechanical side of development, within reason.

 

We haven't seen the 2021 aero regs as yet, but I'm sure that the plan is for them to be simplified.

 

Standard parts makes sense for some areas. Gearbox development won't create advantages now, so it is really a waste of money for 5 or 6 teams to designing and building their own.

 

If the gearbox is a cartridge style unit, pioneered by Mercedes, that won't affect suspension design too much.

 

 

Other areas I would like to see standardised are the wheel nuts and guns, so that they aren't being developed by more than half the grid to reduce the pit stop times by fractions of a second.



#3655 SenorSjon

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 08:58

It's not so ridiculous when we remember F1 has a budgets problem and it needs solutions. Compromises will have to be made somewhere. Tendered component supply would be a proven cost saving model that has worked in other series and even in F1 itself (the ECU to name but one). 

 

The ECU isn't about cost saving but the inability to police all forms of launc/traction control and other electronic gizmo's.

 

More info here: https://www.motorspo...tender/4340222/

 

I don't like where this is going. The gearbox is a fundamental part of the racing car. What's next, an engine tender? 



#3656 Clatter

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 09:31

https://legal.fia.co...agent

Gearbox will have 7 gears
Fixed gear ratios for everyone
Higher revs expected/desired (14%)
Increased mgu-k output (+30kw)

Does that mean all teams run the same ratios, or the same rule as now, where the ratios are fixed at the start of the season?

#3657 Wuzak

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 12:33

Does that mean all teams run the same ratios, or the same rule as now, where the ratios are fixed at the start of the season?

 

Possibly the ratios will be the same but the final drive ratio is free for the teams to choose.



#3658 FPV GTHO

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 23:46

I can see one of the teams getting this tender. For their own sake, my preference would be Williams.

I have no general problem with a standard gearbox cartridge, the biggest issue for me would be if everyone has 100% the same ratios. There needs to be some variability there. The sport needs to reduce alot of it's prototype parts though if they want the basic cost of competing to be significantly less than $100m

#3659 nonobaddog

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 00:47

$100m would be cheap.  Even the thriftiest teams, Force India and Haas, spend a little more than that.  Ferrari is like three or four times that.  If they could get it significantly lower that would be great.



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#3660 FPV GTHO

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 04:55

$100m would be cheap. Even the thriftiest teams, Force India and Haas, spend a little more than that. Ferrari is like three or four times that. If they could get it significantly lower that would be great.


$100m is a rough figure just to build 2 cars and parts and show up for 20/21 races. If you actually do any development, of course you then spend more. We've seen recently teams like Lotus, Force India and Sauber all have extended periods of no development but they're still spending big money.

#3661 scheivlak

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 21:22

I guess this is relevant to this thread?

 

Interesting stuff from Ross Brawn: https://www.theguard...ance-ross-brawn

 

Brawn is working on the new technical regulations set for launch in 2021, the same year a new commercial deal with the teams is required. Under the current Concorde Agreement Ferrari receive an estimated $70m payment for taking part, over and above any revenue from where they are classified in the championship. Red Bull and Mercedes also receive substantial additional payments. Other teams have argued that the sport will not be competitive until revenues are more fairly distributed.

Brawn was unequivocal that there would have to be a new deal. “There is too much disparity between the top two or three teams and the rest of the grid,” he said. “You have a group of teams that could finish last and still earn more than the team that has won the world championship. We have to recognise the importance and history of Ferrari and the unique place it has in the sport but we also have to find a balance between that recognition and an equitable position for the rest."



#3662 AustinF1

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 21:45

Nice. He also said quite a bit more that's quoted here:

https://www.motorspo...8tSR_RU.twitter



#3663 pdac

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 00:53

I guess this is relevant to this thread?

 

Interesting stuff from Ross Brawn: https://www.theguard...ance-ross-brawn

 

Brawn is working on the new technical regulations set for launch in 2021, the same year a new commercial deal with the teams is required. Under the current Concorde Agreement Ferrari receive an estimated $70m payment for taking part, over and above any revenue from where they are classified in the championship. Red Bull and Mercedes also receive substantial additional payments. Other teams have argued that the sport will not be competitive until revenues are more fairly distributed.

Brawn was unequivocal that there would have to be a new deal. “There is too much disparity between the top two or three teams and the rest of the grid,” he said. “You have a group of teams that could finish last and still earn more than the team that has won the world championship. We have to recognise the importance and history of Ferrari and the unique place it has in the sport but we also have to find a balance between that recognition and an equitable position for the rest."

 

There's where he goes wrong straight away.



#3664 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 02:10

 

I don't like where this is going. The gearbox is a fundamental part of the racing car. What's next, an engine tender? 

 

How about turbocharger, battery, MGUK, and MGUH tender?  :up:


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 09 March 2019 - 02:10.


#3665 loki

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 02:38

Sweary Steiner...   LOL   :lol:



#3666 MatsNorway

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 14:56

I am just glad they are going down to a seven speed box. Teams should be allowed to build their casing of choosing. But the actual gears themselves should be standard..  Set a solid spec and give the job to the lowest bidder.



#3667 Fatgadget

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 15:32

I can see one of the teams getting this tender. For their own sake, my preference would be Williams.

I have no general problem with a standard gearbox cartridge, the biggest issue for me would be if everyone has 100% the same ratios. There needs to be some variability there. The sport needs to reduce alot of it's prototype parts though if they want the basic cost of competing to be significantly less than $100m

Why would a fiercely independent team the likes of Ferrari want to utilise a gearbox made by Williams?



#3668 Fatgadget

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 15:33

How about turbocharger, battery, MGUK, and MGUH tender?  :up:

LOL! :D



#3669 Tsarwash

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 15:41

I am just glad they are going down to a seven speed box. Teams should be allowed to build their casing of choosing. But the actual gears themselves should be standard..  Set a solid spec and give the job to the lowest bidder.

Why do you think that the gears should be standard ? 



#3670 Kalmake

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 15:44

Why would a fiercely independent team the likes of Ferrari want to utilise a gearbox made by Williams?

Because it would be the only one allowed.



#3671 nonobaddog

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 15:46

Why would a fiercely independent team the likes of Ferrari want to utilise a gearbox made by Williams?

 

If that were to ever get into the regulations - they would want to do it so they would not be disqualified.



#3672 muramasa

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 16:37

Standard gearbox is joke, can they just stop talking that fans dont care about those internals? I care and this variety and independence is what makes F1 F1. It is ok if teams like RP Haas can get xtrac gearbox free or cheaply from FIA if they want to, but standardizing it is no way. Next it's wheel, next it's brakes. There will be no stop. F1 will be destroyed.



#3673 nonobaddog

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 16:41

Standard gearbox is joke, can they just stop talking that fans dont care about those internals? I care and this variety and independence is what makes F1 F1. It is ok if teams like RP Haas can get xtrac gearbox free or cheaply from FIA if they want to, but standardizing it is no way. Next it's wheel, next it's brakes. There will be no stop. F1 will be destroyed.

 

Too late.  F1 is already destroyed.



#3674 Fatgadget

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 17:59

Because it would be the only one allowed.

 

If that were to ever get into the regulations - they would want to do it so they would not be disqualified.

They hold a veto against such nonsense do they not :p ?!



#3675 Fatgadget

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 18:03

Possibly the ratios will be the same but the final drive ratio is free for the teams to choose.

Whats the point of that? Why not just mandate a standard drive train from the clutch to the final drive ratio?



#3676 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 18:08

Why would a fiercely independent team the likes of Ferrari want to utilise a gearbox made by Williams?

 

They used an ECU made by McLaren without too much fuss.



#3677 pdac

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 21:59

Standard gearbox is joke, can they just stop talking that fans dont care about those internals? I care and this variety and independence is what makes F1 F1. It is ok if teams like RP Haas can get xtrac gearbox free or cheaply from FIA if they want to, but standardizing it is no way. Next it's wheel, next it's brakes. There will be no stop. F1 will be destroyed.

 

This is an example of why a dislike the term 'fan'.

 

One interpretation of the word 'fan' is someone who is a passionate follower of all aspects of the sport. Those sorts (probably most here) see themselves as 'fans' and would think that this is the only meaning of the word 'fan'.

 

However, many also use the word 'fan' to mean anyone who follows the sport, even if that means just watching the TV coverage every now and again.

 

Also, I'm sure as far as FOM/Liberty are concerned, a 'fan' is anyone who does or potentially will pay money for anything F1 related. They want to attract new 'fans' - these are people who will know little to nothing about an F1 car other than they are racing cars (whatever that implies to them).

 

I would suggest that the other groups may be far bigger than the my first definition.



#3678 pdac

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 22:00

They hold a veto against such nonsense do they not :p ?!

 

For how long, though.



#3679 nonobaddog

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 22:21

This is an example of why a dislike the term 'fan'.

 

One interpretation of the word 'fan' is someone who is a passionate follower of all aspects of the sport. Those sorts (probably most here) see themselves as 'fans' and would think that this is the only meaning of the word 'fan'.

 

However, many also use the word 'fan' to mean anyone who follows the sport, even if that means just watching the TV coverage every now and again.

 

Also, I'm sure as far as FOM/Liberty are concerned, a 'fan' is anyone who does or potentially will pay money for anything F1 related. They want to attract new 'fans' - these are people who will know little to nothing about an F1 car other than they are racing cars (whatever that implies to them).

 

I would suggest that the other groups may be far bigger than the my first definition.

 

"Fan" is short for "fanatic".  So to be an F1 Fan you do more than watch every now and then. 

 

Of course you can redefine fanatic all you want.



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#3680 pdac

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 23:18

"Fan" is short for "fanatic".  So to be an F1 Fan you do more than watch every now and then. 

 

Of course you can redefine fanatic all you want.

 

I think my point was that when Liberty say they want to increase 'fans', they mean they want to increase the number of people who will make them money - that's their definition of 'fan' and it's the one that the FIA would agree with and it's the one we should all understand when we hear stuff from them both about what the 'fans' want.



#3681 InSearchOfThe

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 23:29

I hope this is a start in the right directions and not just BS. Some give by Ferrari would be encouraging and the first domino.....

 

https://us.motorspor...hanges/4350821/



#3682 FPV GTHO

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 00:00

Standard gearbox is joke, can they just stop talking that fans dont care about those internals? I care and this variety and independence is what makes F1 F1. It is ok if teams like RP Haas can get xtrac gearbox free or cheaply from FIA if they want to, but standardizing it is no way. Next it's wheel, next it's brakes. There will be no stop. F1 will be destroyed.


I would think the wheels are something pretty close to Brawn's example with the fire extinguisher.

#3683 Kalmake

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 07:47

Wheel design is pretty important these days to control the temperature of the standard tyres.



#3684 Henri Greuter

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 07:49

Wheel design is pretty important these days to control the temperature of the standard tyres.


.... of which three varieties are offered to have at least a bit of variation in strategy still possible ......
(in theory that is, let's that be admitted....)

Edited by Henri Greuter, 12 March 2019 - 07:50.


#3685 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 08:34

Bad, worse, worst?



#3686 Henri Greuter

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 09:20

Bad, worse, worst?


What is the alternative?
Another tire war and yet another manner to see costs spiraling out of control and even faster cars so overtaking and battles for position become even more difficult because of yet another reason ?

Given the s**t they get dumped on them each and every time I'm surprised Pirelli is still willing to be reason for all moaning about tires in F1 with offering all those many variants....

Edited by Henri Greuter, 12 March 2019 - 09:21.


#3687 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 10:14

Pirelli could have backed out in the previous two tenders. They didn't. So they seem to like this.



#3688 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 10:57

Standard gearbox is joke, can they just stop talking that fans dont care about those internals? I care and this variety and independence is what makes F1 F1. It is ok if teams like RP Haas can get xtrac gearbox free or cheaply from FIA if they want to, but standardizing it is no way. Next it's wheel, next it's brakes. There will be no stop. F1 will be destroyed.

 

Strongly disagree.  Those items would be no big deal.


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 12 March 2019 - 10:58.


#3689 FPV GTHO

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 11:29

Wheel design is pretty important these days to control the temperature of the standard tyres.


I think the sport got by fine with pretty negligible development on the wheels until the hybrid era.

It's going to close down a development avenue, but at the moment that specific avenue is arguably led by Mercedes. Arguably they and the other front runners are the ones the sport wants to reign in

#3690 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 12:16

Pirelli could have backed out in the previous two tenders. They didn't. So they seem to like this.

 

Hankook tendered for the new deal but were rejected.  :confused:



#3691 Fatgadget

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 12:26

Hankook tendered for the new deal but were rejected.  :confused:

Can't say I am surprised TBH! What pedigree have they got designing high performance tyres?



#3692 SenorSjon

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 13:11

I think the sport got by fine with pretty negligible development on the wheels until the hybrid era.

It's going to close down a development avenue, but at the moment that specific avenue is arguably led by Mercedes. Arguably they and the other front runners are the ones the sport wants to reign in

 

Really? We had closed wheel hubs in the mid noughties. But in case of Pirelli, we've had them exploding, cliffing, coasting, tendering and what not since their inception in 2011.

 

Can't say I am surprised TBH! What pedigree have they got designing high performance tyres?

 

DTM iirc



#3693 Clatter

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 13:16

Can't say I am surprised TBH! What pedigree have they got designing high performance tyres?

 


Seem to be involved in a few series. https://www.hankookt...otorsports.html

#3694 FPV GTHO

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 20:47

Really? We had closed wheel hubs in the mid noughties. But in case of Pirelli, we've had them exploding, cliffing, coasting, tendering and what not since their inception in 2011


My recollection of those hub caps is they were technically part of the wheel nut assembly, and were there for aero reasons

#3695 pdac

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 00:19

What is the alternative?
Another tire war and yet another manner to see costs spiraling out of control and even faster cars so overtaking and battles for position become even more difficult because of yet another reason ?

Given the s**t they get dumped on them each and every time I'm surprised Pirelli is still willing to be reason for all moaning about tires in F1 with offering all those many variants....

 

 

How about there are 3 compounds developed and each team has to choose ONE compound AT THE START OF THE SEASON to be used on ALL TRACKS. They can test each compound for a bit in pre-season testing and then they have to decide which to use. The number of sets of each compound that are allocated at each event will depend on the perceived durability as agreed by the tyre manufacturer and the teams (so more sets of the less durable tyres will be available than the more durable ones).

 

The teams will then have to weigh up the characteristics of their cars, together with the grip and wear characteristics of different circuits and the pit stop times etc. all well in advance. BUT it will reduce costs. There should be a lot less tyres wasted and it should easier to optimise the manufacturing process as the numbers of each tyre required will be known from the outset.



#3696 Clatter

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 12:28

How about there are 3 compounds developed and each team has to choose ONE compound AT THE START OF THE SEASON to be used on ALL TRACKS. They can test each compound for a bit in pre-season testing and then they have to decide which to use. The number of sets of each compound that are allocated at each event will depend on the perceived durability as agreed by the tyre manufacturer and the teams (so more sets of the less durable tyres will be available than the more durable ones).

 

The teams will then have to weigh up the characteristics of their cars, together with the grip and wear characteristics of different circuits and the pit stop times etc. all well in advance. BUT it will reduce costs. There should be a lot less tyres wasted and it should easier to optimise the manufacturing process as the numbers of each tyre required will be known from the outset.

 


Don't like the idea. Any team who makes the wrong choice will not have anyway to recover. It was the same problem when they locked the engines down in 2014. All that does is ruin the racing and potentially gives one team an easy run to the title.

#3697 RA2

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 13:06

I wish the teams and FIA will agree to a spec floor element in the middle of the car

 

Barge boards are just getting ridiculous, if done right teams can play with the rear of floor, wings and sidepods. 

 

14963253367_f4304fb31c_b.jpg



#3698 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 13:10

I wish the teams and FIA will agree to a spec floor element in the middle of the car

 

Barge boards are just getting ridiculous, if done right teams can play with the rear of floor, wings and sidepods. 

 

Those Lola floors or the later Panoz ones don't actually generate much downforce^ by F1 standards -- I guess because of the very shallow maximum diffuser angle mandated under CART/Champcar rules AFAIK.

 

^  (though those turning vanes/vortex generators at the inlet on the right of the photo do generate vortices under the floor that increase downforce considerably)


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 13 March 2019 - 13:11.


#3699 RA2

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 13:32

I was mentioning the front of the floor only with the raised inlets and fences to seal the floor as a replacement to the current bargeboards

 

 

Something like this

 

lola-2012-indycar-prototype-proposal_100

against this

 

2018mercedesw0904.jpg

 

 

Also the diffuser starting more forward will be good for reduced turbulence at the back


Edited by RA2, 13 March 2019 - 13:36.


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#3700 muramasa

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Posted 13 March 2019 - 13:44

I wish the teams and FIA will agree to a spec floor element in the middle of the car

 

Barge boards are just getting ridiculous, if done right teams can play with the rear of floor, wings and sidepods.

Spec/standard will kill this sport. If you want F1 to remain F1 you better oppose anything spec/standard, we do not need another Indycar in any form. Bargeboards are getting ridiculous because with current formula that is the area that is left free by reg and make difference in performance. With undorbody aero it will be more about whole car plus they can always restrict the number of bits and elements on the upper side of the body. Calling for spec/standard quickly like that is just lacking thought.