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2021 engine formula: political wrangling, technical details, aesthetics...


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Poll: Pick and choose! (468 member(s) have cast votes)

Extra 3000rpm?

  1. Yay (424 votes [90.60%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 90.60%

  2. Nay (44 votes [9.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.40%

More prescriptive engine design, standard energy store etc

  1. Yay (243 votes [51.92%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 51.92%

  2. Nay (225 votes [48.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 48.08%

Removing MGU-H, more tactical use of MGU-K

  1. Yay (350 votes [74.79%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 74.79%

  2. Nay (118 votes [25.21%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.21%

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#4151 Lephturn

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 15:34

Refueling with limited fuel cell capacity.

 

I don't have a problem with that at all. Provided it is done as safely as possible. You'll never get rid of the fire risk completely but I think that's part of the risk and spectacle.



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#4152 saudoso

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 18:22

May I point you to your own words about prejudice?


CART was getting very high profile. Even after "the split" it gained in international standing, only to fail a few years later as a combination of factors including mismanagement by the team owners, a flotation on the sock market that didn't pay off, the lack of the publicity of being associated with Indy itself and some say blocking tactics from Bernie Ecclestone.

There's nowhere for "rednecks" to figure in that story.

I’ve never hidden my partial view of the world. Selective outrage and political correctness are no better.

And back to racing, the loss of Indy 500 had nothing to do with the failure. Right.

Edited by saudoso, 22 May 2019 - 18:30.


#4153 nonobaddog

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 18:59

I’ve never hidden my partial view of the world. Selective outrage and political correctness are no better.

 

:up:  While we have disagreed on other things - I gotta say - that is a damn good answer.



#4154 PayasYouRace

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Posted 22 May 2019 - 19:26

I’ve never hidden my partial view of the world. Selective outrage and political correctness are no better.

And back to racing, the loss of Indy 500 had nothing to do with the failure. Right.


I can’t work out what you’re trying to say.

I said that the loss of Indy was part of the failure of CART. What I took issue with was your rednecks comment.

#4155 saudoso

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 01:27

Ok, I missred that.

As per my recollection, the play by TG to take over the series was in part fueled by some of the teams not being happy about the internationalization of the series. Both calendar and drivers.

#4156 FPV GTHO

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 01:55

I think if you had refuelling return, it would lose some of the variability in the strategy. Even if you kept high degradation tyres, the teams would likely be driving to their fuel targets rather than tyre targets. Youre not going to get teams putting 30 laps of fuel in with the hope the driver might get the tyres to last that long when the data says 25 laps is safe. Some people might prefer that if it means 25 fast laps instead of 30 mediocre laps. I'm not so sure, especially if it means everybody is doing the same strategy again. Some of the best races since 2011 have been when different drivers can get the tyres to last differently. If they simply went back to low degradation tyres at the same time, i'd expect drivers would just wait for the pitstops to get ahead like they did pre 2009.

#4157 Ben1445

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 19:46

https://www.autospor...ndard-gearboxes

 

Well that's that then. 



#4158 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 19:49

https://www.autospor...ndard-gearboxes

 

Well that's that then. 

 

Good



#4159 RacingGreen

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 20:31

I thought that the WMSC was just going to rubber stamp whatever Ross and Co came up with but apparently not. No standard gearbox. Part of me says "Good, Let's hope that stops this trend to watering down the sport," but I must confess there is another part that wants to know a bit more first. Who lobbied them and told them they didn't want it to go through; Ferrari,  Mercedes,  Williams, who ? So first we need to ask "which of the teams has enough clout that when they objected the WMSC changes Liberty Medias / FIA's decisions" and then the follow-up question of "did any of the other teams want standardization and get overruled?"  I ask these because the move was being sold on cost cutting grounds and I suspect that those teams who want to find cost savings the most have the least influence at the WMSC and this is just one of several proposed ways at reducing costs to level the playing field.



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#4160 OO7

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 20:47

Good

Yep. :up:

 

All these piecemeal ideas (standard gearboxes, brakes, wheel rims, wheel hubs etc) are laughable in my opinion.  Vastly simplify the aero and the sums of money saved would be orders of magnitude higher.



#4161 FPV GTHO

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 02:18

I thought that the WMSC was just going to rubber stamp whatever Ross and Co came up with but apparently not. No standard gearbox. Part of me says "Good, Let's hope that stops this trend to watering down the sport," but I must confess there is another part that wants to know a bit more first. Who lobbied them and told them they didn't want it to go through; Ferrari, Mercedes, Williams, who ? So first we need to ask "which of the teams has enough clout that when they objected the WMSC changes Liberty Medias / FIA's decisions" and then the follow-up question of "did any of the other teams want standardization and get overruled?" I ask these because the move was being sold on cost cutting grounds and I suspect that those teams who want to find cost savings the most have the least influence at the WMSC and this is just one of several proposed ways at reducing costs to level the playing field.


I don't think that's the case at all. Liberty has been quite open in saying with most of these tenders, that if there's no suitable candidate then they won't go ahead. It looks like for now they're going to try different regulations to enable cheaper gearboxes.

#4162 BalanceUT

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 22:54

I don't know if Chainbear's Positive and Negative Feedback Loops video has been posted here, but I hope the powers that be are paying attention to these ideas. Furthermore, F1 should look closely at Formula e's qualifying format (cars go out in groups based on current championship order, highest set of drivers going first, meaning track evolution favors those lowest in the championship, then a top 6 shootout for pole). 

 

Here are the videos: Overall positive and negative feedback loop rules in competitions (the boardgame he's showing is Formula De, one that I've played dozens and dozens of times, even in tournaments, a resource management and probabilities management game). https://www.youtube....iS_FK9FEz4&t=2s

 

Formula e's qualifying format as a negative feedback loop that improves competitiveness in the field. https://www.youtube....h?v=RUxZQFNEYTI



#4163 nonobaddog

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 21:45

I watched the Formula 1 Gran Prix de Monaco this weekend as well as the Indianapolis 500.
One had hundreds of on-track overtakes and the other had very few.
 
Yes, they are different venues and types of racing but that is the point.  
One was exciting and fun to watch and the other was a parade with lots of whining.


#4164 Wuzak

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 01:33

 

I watched the Formula 1 Gran Prix de Monaco this weekend as well as the Indianapolis 500.
One had hundreds of on-track overtakes and the other had very few.
 
Yes, they are different venues and types of racing but that is the point.  
One was exciting and fun to watch and the other was a parade with lots of whining.

 

 

In one of the race of the races it was too easy to overtake, while it was too hard for the other?



#4165 THEWALL

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 01:45

The problem is boring racing won't be watched by as many people. It doesn't matter if it is "pure" or that "the fastest team/driver should win" - if F1 races are frequently parades where the fastest cars start at the front and continually drive away the viewership and fan base would evaporate. It doesn't matter if it's "pure". It doesn't matter if it's "artificial". If the races are boring F1 is in trouble.

In terms of pit stops - sure you can do away with mandated pit stops but you risk removing part of the spectacle. Like it or not watching pit stops is pretty cool and I would wager a race with 1 or 0 stops for most teams would be seen as less entertaining by most fans. If you don't force pit stops with tires that degrade quickly and you don't mandate them some other way then how do you plan to ensure there are on 2 stops per race per car in most situations?

I am a lifelong fan. I love F1. I'll be in Montreal this year watching - it is normally very well attended. Turn that into a 1-0 stop snooze fest where the gaps get wider and wider while the only overtaking cars being lapped - and they won't sell 1/2 the tickets for next year's race.


If “fans” need pitstops, be it for mandatory tyre changes or refueling, they don’t understand auto racing. F1 and the fans that do understand can live without them.

#4166 Laminar

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 02:37

Go watch F1 2002 and 2004 to see how useless pitstops are for action when 1 team dominates. It makes no difference. They need to fix the real problem which 1 team dominating rather than gimmicks around the edges. Another big problem is that 20+years ago the sport was an amazing spectacle with the noise, tracks, accidents, thrills, so even if the racing was boring the spectacle still entertained. Since excessive safety has sanitized the sport so much, the spectacle is all but gone so all we have left is crapping racing. In reality the end is near.



#4167 OO7

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 00:05

zXhXbJX.jpg



#4168 Ben1445

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 07:33

2 0 2 5 

 

 

 

:(



#4169 statman

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 14:02

Rencken:

 

NEW: The storm brewing amid F1’s 2021 rules wrangle - https://www.racefans.net/2019/05/29/the-storm-brewing-amid-f1s-2021-rules-wrangle/ 



#4170 pdac

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 15:06

2 0 2 5 

 

 

 

:(

 

Until 2025 comes near and they can't agree any changes. Maybe 3025 (if man us still alive, if woman can survive).



#4171 pdac

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 15:07

 

Wheel out the teacup, then.



#4172 7MGTEsup

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 15:24

Yep. :up:

 

All these piecemeal ideas (standard gearboxes, brakes, wheel rims, wheel hubs etc) are laughable in my opinion.  Vastly simplify the aero and the sums of money saved would be orders of magnitude higher.

 

If someone has $500,000,000 to burn they will find a way to burn it, that's the sad truth. Non of the teams at the front want a level playing field and while only a unanimous vote will get anything through there is no hope.

 

The rule makers need to take back control from the teams, that is the only way to get new rules that will make a difference. At the moment it's design by comity which never ends well.



#4173 f1paul

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 15:27

All this "talk" and the one of the most important things (the Power Unit) looks like it will be delayed by at least four years.  :lol:



#4174 Pete_f1

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 17:05

They bottled it!

The big teams will win out, not much will change.

And so on

#4175 pdac

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 17:37

They bottled it!

The big teams will win out, not much will change.

And so on

 

And it will set a precedent for all future "talks" about changes. The lunatics are now well in control of the asylum.



#4176 Fatgadget

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 17:50

If someone has $500,000,000 to burn they will find a way to burn it, that's the sad truth. Non of the teams at the front want a level playing field and while only a unanimous vote will get anything through there is no hope.

 

The rule makers need to take back control from the teams, that is the only way to get new rules that will make a difference. At the moment it's design by comity which never ends well.

Does this then mean those teams with deep pockets being prevented from hiring the best  engineers/team principals /mechanics etc....or some form of wage cap or what exactly?..Yes ,the best command high salaries do they not?



#4177 Garndell

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 17:52

And it will set a precedent for all future "talks" about changes. The lunatics are now well in control of the asylum.

 

We had a choice between Liberty Lunatics, Team/Manufacturer Lunatics & common sense, no surprise the Lunatics won out in the end really.

 

Perhaps the FIA needs a modern day Max Mosley to actually take charge and not the bureaucrat politician (modern trend) like Jean Todt.



#4178 pdac

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 17:57

We had a choice between Liberty Lunatics, Team/Manufacturer Lunatics & common sense, no surprise the Lunatics won out in the end really.

 

Perhaps the FIA needs a modern day Max Mosley to actually take charge and not the bureaucrat politician (modern trend) like Jean Todt.

 

Yup. Being "in charge" does not mean letting everyone else tell you want to do. It's about listening to everyone, assessing what they have to say and then making your own decision from a position of knowledge.



#4179 Clatter

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 17:57

We had a choice between Liberty Lunatics, Team/Manufacturer Lunatics & common sense, no surprise the Lunatics won out in the end really.

 

Perhaps the FIA needs a modern day Max Mosley to actually take charge and not the bureaucrat politician (modern trend) like Jean Todt.

 


We didn't have any choice.

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#4180 nonobaddog

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 18:13

I was a Formula 1 fan for a long time, went to my first race at Nurburgring in 1971.  But now that it has devolved into Formula Mercedes Hybrid I just don't like their product anymore so I am no longer a fan.  I will probably watch one race a year on TV just to see what has changed.  I already watched the Monaco race for this year... meh.  It is a shame, F1 sure had a good thing going.
 
I will always be a racing fan, I'll just move along to other series that suit my taste better.


#4181 OO7

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 18:21

If someone has $500,000,000 to burn they will find a way to burn it, that's the sad truth. Non of the teams at the front want a level playing field and while only a unanimous vote will get anything through there is no hope.

 

The rule makers need to take back control from the teams, that is the only way to get new rules that will make a difference. At the moment it's design by comity which never ends well.

I agree.  When I mentioned cost savings, I really mean a reduction in the cost to be competitive.



#4182 pdac

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 19:27

 

I was a Formula 1 fan for a long time, went to my first race at Nurburgring in 1971.  But now that it has devolved into Formula Mercedes Hybrid I just don't like their product anymore so I am no longer a fan.  I will probably watch one race a year on TV just to see what has changed.  I already watched the Monaco race for this year... meh.  It is a shame, F1 sure had a good thing going.
 
I will always be a racing fan, I'll just move along to other series that suit my taste better.

 

 

I'm not that young myself. As such, I've seen many many things change over the years - some for the better, some not. You have to either embrace changes or move on to something else. The one thing that rarely happens is for anything to stand still. Most things that try to stand still end up dead (although I don't know why).



#4183 Viryfan

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 15:41

Mercedes to stay in F1 until 2025 according to Corriere Dello Sport

 

https://www.corriere...1_fino_al_2025/



#4184 Pete_f1

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 11:28

Hamilton 9x WDC then

#4185 Nonesuch

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 13:54

Go watch F1 2002 and 2004 to see how useless pitstops are for action when 1 team dominates. It makes no difference.

 

If someone does this, be sure to pick France 2004. That was fun.

 

The looks on the faces of the Renault guys as it dawned on them that Ferrari was going all-in on a four (!) stop race is still hilarious.



#4186 Neno

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 13:59

If someone does this, be sure to pick France 2004. That was fun.

 

The looks on the faces of the Renault guys as it dawned on them that Ferrari was going all-in on a four (!) stop race is still hilarious.

And Schumi running full race qualy laps in that race. How can you forget those memories. Even as Renault and Alonso fan I enjoyed F1. And enjoyed it till 2009. It's just different sport or entertainment show since then.  And by ratings and popularity of sport not for the better. 


Edited by Neno, 01 June 2019 - 14:00.


#4187 Nonesuch

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 15:42

Perhaps the FIA needs a modern day Max Mosley to actually take charge and not the bureaucrat politician (modern trend) like Jean Todt.

 

Absolutely not. Todt is president of the FIA, not King of F1 as Mosley fancied himself. With the shambolic 2009 season as the most ridiculous outcome. There are people within the FIA who answer to Todt about Sports (Peter Bayer), and he in turn has various people for circuit racing (Frédéric Bertrand), single-seater (TBA), technical issues (Gilles Simon) and F1 financials (Federico Lodi). Let them do their job, so Todt can do his.

 

The FIA can make sure F1 is run competently, but they can't lay down the law thanks to a lot of earlier concessions to FOM and the teams. They have a big stake in how 'their' championship is run. For all the talk that F1 fans are too conservative, it's actually the people with the big money that are reluctant to change much and risk upsetting the balance of power. F1 is a very profitable business for a lot of these people. Mercedes doesn't give two shits about the long-term future of F1 so long as they can milk their V6 success for all its worth. If F1 stops being a benefit they'll dump the team and get some PR folks on DTM, Formula E, or whatever else gives a good return on their investment at that time.



#4188 P123

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 15:57

Merc have been in the sport unbroken since 1994 after dipping a toe in through Ilmor in 93 with Sauber. They won't be going anywhere. Typical narrow minded F1 fan that goes for the tall poppy. Merc are doing a better job. That's it- albeit spending stupid money to do so. The rest that are on the grid agreed to the same rules.

As for the rose tinted nonsense above.....

Simple fact is the FIA should make the rules, and the teams can take or leave. Mind you, that will always be a problem due to the weakness and politicking of the Mosley/ Ecclestone era bowed down to one team by allowing a rules veto in addition to being doped up financially.

Edited by P123, 01 June 2019 - 15:57.


#4189 BuddyHolly

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 16:00

Formula Mercedes for the next 5-6 years then?   Well, I hope the remaining 174 F1 fans by the end of 2025 enjoy it  ;)



#4190 P123

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Posted 01 June 2019 - 16:11

Formula Mercedes for the next 5-6 years then?   Well, I hope the remaining 174 F1 fans by the end of 2025 enjoy it ;)


Oh come on, despite moaning ever since Vettel stopped winning you still manage to watch! So long as the greatest whingers are watching, F1 is perfectly fine, especially compared to other genuinely more entertaining series which aren't greatly healthy when it comes to viewership. They'll happily take their wedge of cash from Sky and the rest.

As for engines, Ferrari aren't exactly nowhere (if anything punching more power), and Honda are doing an excellent job now. F1 could change to something simpler, but it's worth remembering that Merc were often the benchmark during those days too. And they've tried changing the chassis rules a couple of times too. That didn't really work.

The main aim of any new rules should be better and cheaper racing, combined with the likes of Ferrari, Red Bull, Merc and McLaren losing the financial bung that the utterly weak Ecclestone short sightedly had to gift them. Naturally, they all complain it would cost too much to change. The main focus for 2021 should though be on the chassis.

#4191 BuddyHolly

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 13:38

Oh come on, despite moaning ever since Vettel stopped winning you still manage to watch! So long as the greatest whingers are watching, F1 is perfectly fine, especially compared to other genuinely more entertaining series which aren't greatly healthy when it comes to viewership. They'll happily take their wedge of cash from Sky and the rest.

As for engines, Ferrari aren't exactly nowhere (if anything punching more power), and Honda are doing an excellent job now. F1 could change to something simpler, but it's worth remembering that Merc were often the benchmark during those days too. And they've tried changing the chassis rules a couple of times too. That didn't really work.

The main aim of any new rules should be better and cheaper racing, combined with the likes of Ferrari, Red Bull, Merc and McLaren losing the financial bung that the utterly weak Ecclestone short sightedly had to gift them. Naturally, they all complain it would cost too much to change. The main focus for 2021 should though be on the chassis.

Let me just make one thing very clear my friend (yes, I count everyone here as my friend), I have never been a Vettel fan and never will be.  By all means check my post history and see all my comments on the guy and you'll plainly see I am no fan.  I don't dislike the guy but I do think he is very overrated by the whole EBD made him look way better than he actually is, perhaps my opinion would be different if he had taking the title last year but he did not and you cannot blame the team or the car, his constant mistakes threw it away.

 

By all means call me an idiot, a moaner, a relic, a moron or whatever but a Vettel fan?  lol no.

 

Just because I am I sick to death of Mercedes walking to title after title with no competition, doesn't mean I'm a seb fan.  (I will state I do like Leclerc though, oh and Ricciardo too)


Edited by BuddyHolly, 02 June 2019 - 13:40.


#4192 7MGTEsup

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Posted 04 June 2019 - 15:06

Does this then mean those teams with deep pockets being prevented from hiring the best  engineers/team principals /mechanics etc....or some form of wage cap or what exactly?..Yes ,the best command high salaries do they not?

 

You can build and run 2 racing cars that lap as fast as current F1 cars for far less than current F1 costs. Does anyone think it is sensible that teams have ballooned to 700+ members of staff? Look at the size of the motorhomes/entourage that show up each weekend to race 2 cars, as with most sports money is what kills it in the end.



#4193 pdac

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Posted 04 June 2019 - 16:03

You can build and run 2 racing cars that lap as fast as current F1 cars for far less than current F1 costs. Does anyone think it is sensible that teams have ballooned to 700+ members of staff? Look at the size of the motorhomes/entourage that show up each weekend to race 2 cars, as with most sports money is what kills it in the end.

 

Exactly. This whole "pinnacle of motorsport" is just so outdated now. Forget being the pinnacle, just collect a bunch of teams that can design good RACING cars rather than things that you can look at and marvel at the technology but put them on the track and they just follow each other home in a procession.



#4194 saudoso

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Posted 05 June 2019 - 10:00

There’s hope still:

https://twitter.com/...3957990400?s=21

Couple decades ago he was designing subcompacts. Now he’s back at it.

Edited by saudoso, 05 June 2019 - 10:04.


#4195 Vielleicht

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Posted 05 June 2019 - 10:11

^ from the article

 

"it’s an exercise in engineering that even Gordon Murray himself is calling the last ‘true’ supercar"

 

We are getting into 'last hurrah' territory...



#4196 saudoso

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Posted 05 June 2019 - 11:54

Last, latest, let me just hope.

#4197 Atreiu

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Posted 05 June 2019 - 16:14

Formula Mercedes for the next 5-6 years then?   Well, I hope the remaining 174 F1 fans by the end of 2025 enjoy it  ;)

 

Maybe Ferrari will leave after the 19th time they threat to do it, which in turn will prompts knee jerk reactions which inadvertedly lead to a comprehensive overhaul of the regulations.

 

If there ever was a good time for Ferrari to follow through, but I haven't even heard threats this year yet.



#4198 Ickx

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Posted 05 June 2019 - 17:13

If someone does this, be sure to pick France 2004. That was fun.

 

The looks on the faces of the Renault guys as it dawned on them that Ferrari was going all-in on a four (!) stop race is still hilarious.

 

"We could have won with fewer stops but then we would need to overtake on track"



#4199 FNG

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Posted 05 June 2019 - 17:36

"We could have won with fewer stops but then we would need to overtake on track"

 

and some people wanted refueling back? That said it all right there.



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#4200 AustinF1

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Posted 05 June 2019 - 18:17

Surpised this hasn't been posted here yet...
 
Dieter Rencken on why no new manufacturers are joining F1. It's all pretty obvious stuff, but there are details in there that make me cringe. 
 
 
It's not rocket surgery. I was saying this was going to happen when F1 went to this idiotic formula. Nobody's going to jump into an irrelevant engine formula that's ultra expensive, ultra complex, and which will only make them look bad since they're already wayyyy behind the development curve. Any manufacturer's board would have to be certifiably insane to enter F1 right now. And that's exactly the way the current F1 manufacturers want it, which is why they're now seeking to make the next formula even more unnecessarily & ridiculously costly and complex...
 
the current engine format remains (largely) in place until end-2024. What happens thereafter is currently under discussion. There is talk of two-stroke cycles or even split cycles, of variable valve phasing/timing and electric valve gear, with additional emphasis on improved heat recovery (MGU-H) units. Not least, electrification systems could be upgraded to operate on up to 600V and over 800W. Serious – but costly – stuff

 

 


Edited by AustinF1, 05 June 2019 - 18:34.