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2021 engine formula: political wrangling, technical details, aesthetics...


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Poll: Pick and choose! (505 member(s) have cast votes)

Extra 3000rpm?

  1. Yay (455 votes [90.10%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 90.10%

  2. Nay (50 votes [9.90%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 9.90%

More prescriptive engine design, standard energy store etc

  1. Yay (257 votes [50.89%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.89%

  2. Nay (248 votes [49.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 49.11%

Removing MGU-H, more tactical use of MGU-K

  1. Yay (370 votes [73.27%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 73.27%

  2. Nay (135 votes [26.73%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 26.73%

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#4851 screamingV16

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 07:34

Sometimes it makes you think why teams aren't hiring Sean. Haas, Force Canada, Williams, Ferrari.. you're listening?

 

To do what? They're just pretty pictures, don't think they have much relevance to designing a real F1 car.



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#4852 screamingV16

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 07:44

I might be a heretic, but I don't get the love for the JPS livery. This render is black on black with some gold lines.

 

 

If that was true, we wouldn't have DRS.  ;)

 

I agree to an extent. I loved the look of the Lotus 79 or 98, but sticking a dumbed down non-JPS branded version on a modern F1 car is lame.



#4853 phrank

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 09:28

To do what? They're just pretty pictures, don't think they have much relevance to designing a real F1 car.

He designs for race teams but his actual designs are nowhere as spectacular as his renders



#4854 PayasYouRace

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 09:30

Sometimes it makes you think why teams aren't hiring Sean. Haas, Force Canada, Williams, Ferrari.. you're listening?

 

Except they are hiring him. He's done liveries for many teams in various series. But his artwork isn't limited by real teams' sponsor stipulations.



#4855 PayasYouRace

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 09:32

 

If that was true, we wouldn't have DRS.  ;)

 

DRS wasn't a product of this set of regulations. It was a product of seeing how the F-Duct worked and a rush to recreate its effects. But good news, DRS probably won't feature in the 2021.



#4856 Beri

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 13:21

Except they are hiring him. He's done liveries for many teams in various series. But his artwork isn't limited by real teams' sponsor stipulations.


That I didn't know. Yet he has pulled off some renders that should make F1 teams at least look how things can be done, instead of going the safe route

#4857 Jazza

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 13:38

Has to be remembered that there is a big difference between making a livery that looks good on a render as opposed to one that is functional in natural light whilst doing over 300kph on TV. Making a car that looks right on the broadcast often requires a lot of sacrifices.

#4858 Beri

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 21:14

That may be true. Still, the current designs of the cars are, to me, a bit dull.

#4859 pdac

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 21:41

Then why are the new regulations being tested four hours in windtunnels? For the fun of it?

 

Pretty much. They want to hold up the pretence that they are treating the issues seriously.



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#4860 pdac

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 21:45

That may be true. Still, the current designs of the cars are, to me, a bit dull.

 

Maybe the FIA should standardise it (or, at least, divide the entire car into little boxes and stipulate exactly what must appear in each of them)



#4861 nonobaddog

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 22:38

That may be true. Still, the current designs of the cars are, to me, a bit dull.

 

They really need to bring back the "Pink Pig" livery.



#4862 TF110

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 06:22

DRS wasn't a product of this set of regulations. It was a product of seeing how the F-Duct worked and a rush to recreate its effects. But good news, DRS probably won't feature in the 2021.


It was a knee jerk reaction to the innovation of a team or two and more of a stamp out of said innovation disguised as a safety concern and a 'betterment' for the series. That's what drs was and still is. It's the rule makers way of trying to be in control of things it deems as unsafe or (imo) in this case what I said above about trying to be a step ahead when they were actually caught off-guard with a loophole in their regs. It's almost like they were trying to save face. "Why didn't we think of that?" It boggles my mind that people put faith in this lot. The same ones who put a roll-hoop in the form of their halo to appear they were about head safety when it was another knee jerk reaction to something they didn't think of.

#4863 shure

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 06:42

It was a knee jerk reaction to the innovation of a team or two and more of a stamp out of said innovation disguised as a safety concern and a 'betterment' for the series. That's what drs was and still is. It's the rule makers way of trying to be in control of things it deems as unsafe or (imo) in this case what I said above about trying to be a step ahead when they were actually caught off-guard with a loophole in their regs. It's almost like they were trying to save face. "Why didn't we think of that?" It boggles my mind that people put faith in this lot. The same ones who put a roll-hoop in the form of their halo to appear they were about head safety when it was another knee jerk reaction to something they didn't think of.

yes, DRS was always a way for them to avoid addressing the aero issue by creating something that masked it, rather than tackling it head on.  It's the same philosophy that bought us the comedy tyres - tyres were never the problem in F1 but instead of working on a solution to combat overtaking difficulties they gave us something that created artificial imbalances in the cars instead.  

 

I also have very little faith in the rulemakers.  They have demonstrated time and again that they are completely inept.



#4864 Kalmake

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 06:55

It's not the same lot making the rules now as 5-10 years ago.



#4865 shure

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 07:11

It's not the same lot making the rules now as 5-10 years ago.

It's not completely new, either.  The teams have a say in the rulemaking and they haven't changed that much



#4866 SenorSjon

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 08:53

It's not the same lot making the rules now as 5-10 years ago.

 

It is the same poeple involved. And we should have gotten underfloor aero with the never introduced 2016(?) rules. That was put on hold for financial reasons. Now we are having roughly the same process as back then.



#4867 FPV GTHO

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 09:22

yes, DRS was always a way for them to avoid addressing the aero issue by creating something that masked it, rather than tackling it head on. It's the same philosophy that bought us the comedy tyres - tyres were never the problem in F1 but instead of working on a solution to combat overtaking difficulties they gave us something that created artificial imbalances in the cars instead.

I also have very little faith in the rulemakers. They have demonstrated time and again that they are completely inept.


Tyres were still a problem, just a different problem. Bridgestone had no reason to do anything special, so that's exactly what we got. Something that was low risk that would keep them out of trouble.

#4868 pdac

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 09:22

It's not the same lot making the rules now as 5-10 years ago.

 

Same mindset, though.



#4869 shure

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 09:41

Tyres were still a problem, just a different problem. Bridgestone had no reason to do anything special, so that's exactly what we got. Something that was low risk that would keep them out of trouble.

Tyres weren't a problem.  They were just used as a tool to introduce a joker into the proceedings and try to create unpredictability.  But the tyres did the job they were supposed to do



#4870 mp4x

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 11:15

Sometimes it makes you think why teams aren't hiring Sean. Haas, Force Canada, Williams, Ferrari.. you're listening?

He works for Renault.

#4871 AustinF1

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 14:19

It's not completely new, either.  The teams have a say in the rulemaking and they haven't changed that much

...and that is the biggest problem with F1 today imho.



#4872 Claudius

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 09:12

...and that is the biggest problem with F1 today imho.

 

Not that I disagree with you but having dictators like Max and Bernie making the rules wasn't much better.



#4873 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 09:17

Not that I disagree with you but having dictators like Max and Bernie making the rules wasn't much better.


the more with one of them abusing his position for his own private wellbeings and gather a fortune

#4874 Claudius

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 10:10

the more with one of them abusing his position for his own private wellbeings and gather a fortune

 

Yes that was Bernie. Max OTOH became power-hungry and did all he could to keep it.



#4875 pdac

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Posted 29 August 2019 - 10:38

Yes that was Bernie. Max OTOH became power-hungry and did all he could to keep it.

 

He wasn't the Messiah though. He was a very naughty boy (and need to be spanked).



#4876 Wuzak

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 02:02

I think that for the teams all that should matter is that the rules are set with sufficient time to build the relevant component or complete car and not be changed on a whim.

 

 

The teams should be involved in help framing rules by submitting ideas, but should not get a vote on whether the rules are implemented. The only time the teams should get a vote is when a rule has to be changed in a shorter time period than is normally allowed.



#4877 richardprice

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 02:13

I think that for the teams all that should matter is that the rules are set with sufficient time to build the relevant component or complete car and not be changed on a whim.

 

 

Oh come on, this is the sport where major rules changes happen mid-season...  :rotfl:


Edited by richardprice, 30 August 2019 - 02:19.


#4878 warp

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 02:21


The teams should be involved in help framing rules by submitting ideas, but should not get a vote on whether the rules are implemented. The only time the teams should get a vote is when a rule has to be changed in a shorter time period than is normally allowed.

 

Or when the rule is impossible/impractical to implement.



#4879 pdac

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 08:05

Or when the rule is impossible/impractical to implement.

 

That would have to have unanimous agreement, though. If there is one team that can implement a rule, then the 'impossible' argument disappears. Sure, it may be impractical for some teams to implement changes and sure, it should be considered, but it should not be something that forces the rule makers to back out of a change.



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#4880 shure

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 08:15

Or when the rule is impossible/impractical to implement.

then they may raise a complaint and hope that it gets addressed.  They shouldn't get the power of veto on it regardless.  



#4881 PayasYouRace

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 14:15

This thread is for the technical changes for 2021. Stuff about qualy is being discussed here: https://forums.autos...e-grids-merged/

#4882 nonobaddog

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Posted 30 August 2019 - 23:09

n00b.gif



#4883 Yoshi

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 09:21

https://www.racefans...2021-f1-season/

 

Dear lord...  :rotfl:  

 

 F1 cars could display information to fans on their bodywork and even wheel rims in the 2021 season.
Draft 2021 regulations seen by RaceFans specify six display panels which cars must be fitted with. Two of these will be on the bodywork either side of the car. The other four will be rotating LED display panels fitted to wheel rims.
The purpose of the display panels will be to give information to spectators. This could include what position they are in or how may pit stops they have made.

Edited by Yoshi, 04 September 2019 - 09:22.


#4884 TomNokoe

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 09:30

Why do they have to go on the wheels?

Why can't they invest in more big screen TVs for fans and better graphics?

This is fine but a little unnecessary.

Edited by TomNokoe, 04 September 2019 - 09:32.


#4885 SenorSjon

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 09:32

Why do they have to go on the wheels?


Tire compound on the rim instead of painting the sidewall for instance. Or fake brake glow. Side panels are a Indycar thing, works perfectly.

#4886 Anja

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 09:58

This just screams "clueless old men trying to appeal to the kids". 



#4887 Clatter

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 10:26

This just screams "clueless old men trying to appeal to the kids". 

 


Yep, its the equivalent of blinging a car with spinning hub caps.

#4888 Jazza

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 10:28

Smartphones made this obsolete anyway. But even without any technology, considering there are only ten teams with a fairly routine running order, plus cars rarely get lapped until near the end of the race, is it seriously that hard to follow what’s going on?

Lap 1: silver, silver, red, black, red, black, orange, etc
Lap 40: silver, red, silver, black, red, black, orange, etc
Look! The Ferrari passed the Mercedes for second.

Do people really need an led screen on the side of the car to tell them that? Good for Indy 500, sure. LeMans 24, absolutely. But F1? If you can figure out public transport to and find your seat at the circuit, you should have enough of an IQ to keep track of the cars racing on it.

#4889 Kalmake

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 10:38

This a kind of thing that would have been implemented a long time ago if decision making wasn't so hard in F1.

 

I hope they can sort out better and more elegant cameras while they are at it.



#4890 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 10:43

 

"Don't knock it 'til you try it"

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=NIthZ2OajSo

 

These hologram displays are rather neat.  :up:



#4891 RA2

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 11:07

Led panels will be easy

The new rules propose for having hub caps anyway, rather see a number displayed rather than some fake rim print

 

lPLBP5aAdsAgAS1zJcMOIl7H7cQVBMCWI2_Q1iU9


Edited by RA2, 04 September 2019 - 11:10.


#4892 statman

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 11:42

This just screams "clueless old men trying to appeal to the kids". 

 

source.gif



#4893 FPV GTHO

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 11:46

Smartphones made this obsolete anyway. But even without any technology, considering there are only ten teams with a fairly routine running order, plus cars rarely get lapped until near the end of the race, is it seriously that hard to follow what’s going on?

Lap 1: silver, silver, red, black, red, black, orange, etc
Lap 40: silver, red, silver, black, red, black, orange, etc
Look! The Ferrari passed the Mercedes for second.

Do people really need an led screen on the side of the car to tell them that? Good for Indy 500, sure. LeMans 24, absolutely. But F1? If you can figure out public transport to and find your seat at the circuit, you should have enough of an IQ to keep track of the cars racing on it.


If panels on the car get the younger generations paying more attention to on track than their phones, that would be a good thing IMO.

#4894 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 11:55

Sports cars and GT racing have had position indicator lights for many years. Indycar has had the LED panels which worked great for years until they tried to upgrade them and they couldn't get them to work properly.

 

Both are incredibly useful, especially for the fan at the circuit who doesn't have the luxury of TV graphics.

 

Smartphones made this obsolete anyway. But even without any technology, considering there are only ten teams with a fairly routine running order, plus cars rarely get lapped until near the end of the race, is it seriously that hard to follow what’s going on?

Lap 1: silver, silver, red, black, red, black, orange, etc
Lap 40: silver, red, silver, black, red, black, orange, etc
Look! The Ferrari passed the Mercedes for second.

Do people really need an led screen on the side of the car to tell them that? Good for Indy 500, sure. LeMans 24, absolutely. But F1? If you can figure out public transport to and find your seat at the circuit, you should have enough of an IQ to keep track of the cars racing on it.

 

There are more than 7 cars in a Grand Prix, and the midfield is incredibly competitive so it would be very useful to have something like this.



#4895 Henri Greuter

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 11:56

This a kind of thing that would have been implemented a long time ago if decision making wasn't so hard in F1.
 
I hope they can sort out better and more elegant cameras while they are at it.



I think the biggest problem is not so much decision making.
It's more the fact that F1 has such a high image about itself that it thinks it can ignore every good idea introduced in other series and instead first looks for something else they can think off themselves first before getting down from the ivory tower and accept the idea themselves but then giving it another name to avoid their image of being innovative being blotted with copying something to the last detail, including the name.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 04 September 2019 - 11:56.


#4896 Sterzo

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 16:24

I think the biggest problem is not so much decision making.
It's more the fact that F1 has such a high image about itself that it thinks it can ignore every good idea introduced in other series and instead first looks for something else they can think off themselves first before getting down from the ivory tower and accept the idea themselves but then giving it another name to avoid their image of being innovative being blotted with copying something to the last detail, including the name.

F1 is not a person. It does not have an image of itself. If you think there are individuals with influence who show these attitudes, why not name them?



#4897 Henri Greuter

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 16:36

F1 is not a person. It does not have an image of itself. If you think there are individuals with influence who show these attitudes, why not name them?

 

OK, if you want it that way,

 

I think the biggest problem is not so much decision making.
It's more the fact that the highest powers within F1 rule making has have such a high image about F1  itself that it they thinks it they can ignore every good idea introduced in other series and instead first looks for something else they can think off themselves first before getting down from the ivory tower and accept the idea themselves but then giving it another name to avoid their image of being innovative being blotted with copying something to the last detail, including the name.

 

Better so?


Edited by Henri Greuter, 04 September 2019 - 16:37.


#4898 nonobaddog

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 14:26

I want blue lights in the wheel wells...    oh wait



#4899 Sash1

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 20:54

Mercedes seem to justnhave announced that they will stop the development of diesel and gasoline production engines. The newest engines for the S class are the last development cycle. What then, does Mercedes need F1 for? All this hybrid turbo thermo efficient stuff is soon a waste of money to invest in.

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#4900 Beri

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 21:07

Mercedes seem to justnhave announced that they will stop the development of diesel and gasoline production engines. The newest engines for the S class are the last development cycle. What then, does Mercedes need F1 for? All this hybrid turbo thermo efficient stuff is soon a waste of money to invest in.


Some nuances to be placed here.
Markus Schäfer (chief of engine development at Mercedes) has said that currently all the attention will go to the development of electric powertrains and batteries. This because the new engines have just been introduced.
Mercedes is not anywhere near as efficient in charging and mileage with it's current electric powertrains as the competition is. So it does make sense to focus on this matter.
Most likely the latest spec engine will be used for at least 6 to 10 years. And Schäfer has said currently there are no plans to develop a brand new line of engines run on petrol.
But who knows in 10 years time?