144 replies to this topic

[paipa]

Interesting story in the Missed Apex podcast from ex-Lotus boss Matthew Carter. Here's the video, the story starts at 27:10.

 

2015 Spa, Grosjean was chasing Vettel for P3. Mercedes PU engineers told Lotus to put the engine into a certain mode they had never shown them before. Grosjean said the car changed entirely and he would've caught Vettel even if it wasn't for Vettel's late puncture. Lotus asked Mercedes what it was, Merc said nothing, and they never allowed them to use that engine mode again.

 

We knew about special engine modes, extra Q3 power and all. What's news to me is that those modes are 1) available in customer cars as well, 2) but it doesn't mean they're allowed to use them unless authorized to.

[Swck81]

That is why Ron Dennis said they can't win WC as a Mercedes customer team.

Edited by Swck81, 08 November 2017 - 23:23.

[V8 Fireworks]

It seems of poor ethics by Mercedes. 

[Danyy]

It’s why the manufacturers are fighting the new regs so hard, they have too much power right now. It’s a fight that they must not win again.

[MKSixer]

I've heard the story about 2015 Spa with regard to GRO before but never from the horse's mouth.  The Mercedes PU is extraordinary in every way and their control over its operational parameters is unbelievable.  Ron may have been correct about not winning a championship but McLaren is out of hundreds of millions of dollars because of the lack of performance of the Honda PU.  

[NixxxoN]

So Grosjean was allowed to use once the "Mercedes works team mode" and then forced to switch again to the "Mercedes customer team mode" .... thats about it I guess

[MastaKink]

I remember the radio chat and his engineer saying something like 'We're asking, We're asking'. Brought it up a few times when talking about who has control of the PU modes in customer teams but could never find anything more than someone else mentioning it in F1 Fanatics comments section on the Radio Transcript page. Which bizarrely didn't show the 'We're asking' comment the other poster and I were taking about in the transcript.

 

Good to know we didn't imagine it then. 

[SenorSjon]

The customer Mercedes teams also used one engine less than allowed last year. And Mercedes doesn't want any customer getting too close, so they will deny supply to other high end teams like McLaren and Red Bull.

[RECKLESS]

Surprising they'd let Lotus use that beast mode once in such a promiscuous fashion.

[Clatter]

Surprising they'd let Lotus use that beast mode once in such a promiscuous fashion.

Mistakes happen.

[Joseki]

[Retrofly]

Pretty crummy situation, but I dont expect anything less from engine manufacturers.

Are there any rules for engine parity between customers and manufacturer teams?

[Nonesuch]

2015 Spa, Grosjean was chasing Vettel for P3. Mercedes PU engineers told Lotus to put the engine into a certain mode they had never shown them before. Grosjean said the car changed entirely and he would've caught Vettel even if it wasn't for Vettel's late puncture. Lotus asked Mercedes what it was, Merc said nothing, and they never allowed them to use that engine mode again.

 

Unknown mode? Is that like hammering the SNES with Up, Up, Down, Left, Left, Down, Down?

 

As for allowed; that must mean there's some sort of contract between Mercedes and its customers that outlines the authority of the Mercedes engineer in relation to use of the engine in general and engine modes specifically.

 

Why did the teams agree to this and not band together to cause a stink? Then again, this is F1... they'd rather all have bad contracts than put some trust in another team.
 

[Afterburner]

This sounds like being a Google or Facebook user–you get some cool benefits and advantages so you’re made to believe it’s a good deal, but in the end you’re just there to be their b!tch. 21st century corporate culture, ladies and gentlemen.

Edited by Afterburner, 08 November 2017 - 14:45.

[McLaren]

A strange one. Haven't been able to listen to the podcast, but why were they allowed to use the engine mode?

 

If it's because Merc wanted a Lotus podium, then why wouldn't Merc allow for Force India to use it in Mexico for example.. to halt Vettel's charge. There would be so many other examples like this which would/cold benefit Merc.

 

I can only assume that a decision was made thereafter, to not allow customer teams to use it again.

[MaxisOne]

Hardware is equal .. software based mode features are a different kettle of fish. I personally have no issues with it. If an engine manufacturer who is actually racing as well invest in the technology its very logical that they will keep an edge for themselves. If you want engine parity the engine manufacturer will have to not be racing and therefore wont have an incentive to hold any performance back unless it becomes a pay for features/performance modes system. Ferrari i am willing to say does the exact same thing and if they don't on the software side they definitely do it on the hardware side (upgrades /year old engines).

 

This is also the reason Red Bull attempts to exert influence on Renault regarding engine maps and performance..

[Goron3]

A strange one. Haven't been able to listen to the podcast, but why were they allowed to use the engine mode?

 

If it's because Merc wanted a Lotus podium, then why wouldn't Merc allow for Force India to use it in Mexico for example.. to halt Vettel's charge. There would be so many other examples like this which would/cold benefit Merc.

 

I can only assume that a decision was made thereafter, to not allow customer teams to use it again.

This was back in 2015 so they were probably a bit more protective of these modes back then.

 

I would definitely recommend listening to the podcast as there's some great insight there. They requested to be able to use the settings again but Mercedes said no. Grosjean didn't even know that he was using it, but he got out the car and said it felt incredible.

[wingwalker]

Unknown mode? Is that like hammering the SNES with Up, Up, Down, Left, Left, Down, Down?

 

 

Isn't this pretty like the traction control was (supposedly?) activated in Benetton many moons ago?


This is to be expected, but still that's some major BS from sporting perspective.

[Afterburner]

This was back in 2015 so they were probably a bit more protective of these modes back then.

I would definitely recommend listening to the podcast as there's some great insight there. They requested to be able to use the settings again but Mercedes said no. Grosjean didn't even know that he was using it, but he got out the car and said it felt incredible.

If it was good enough to stop Grosjean whining, it must have been incroyable.

[paipa]

A strange one. Haven't been able to listen to the podcast, but why were they allowed to use the engine mode?

 

If it's because Merc wanted a Lotus podium, then why wouldn't Merc allow for Force India to use it in Mexico for example.. to halt Vettel's charge. There would be so many other examples like this which would/cold benefit Merc.

 

I can only assume that a decision was made thereafter, to not allow customer teams to use it again.

Well, the interview was given by this one guy, so he can only tell us Lotus 2015 stories because that's when they used Mercedes engines. We don't know what Mercedes does or does not allow Force India unless Fernley or Szafnauer tell us. For all we know Force India might have complete freedom to use special modes in exchange for giving a seat to Ocon. Or they might hinder Ferraris on command. We have no idea. That's the whole point: it's one of those hidden realms of F1 that we know little about, but now have a firsthand account of.

[Diablobb81]

Funny thing is that it might not only be about customers vs. works team but also about customer vs.customer.

Engine manufacturers can basically decide WCC order of customer teams (and no threat to works team).

Didn't we hear the same from Williams about engine modes vs. works team some time ago?

[maverick69]

But do they pay their taxes?

[7MGTEsup]

But do they pay their taxes?

 

Lotus (Genii) didn't pay anyone....

[TheFish]

It doesn't make much sense to me given that there have been occasions when a Merc powered car could have caused issues for the Ferraris. Monza with Stroll and Ocon who both were easily passed by Vettel. You'd want as many of the Merc powered cars to be on it as possible, none of them were going to trouble Lewis.

[Goron3]

It doesn't make much sense to me given that there have been occasions when a Merc powered car could have caused issues for the Ferraris. Monza with Stroll and Ocon who both were easily passed by Vettel. You'd want as many of the Merc powered cars to be on it as possible, none of them were going to trouble Lewis.

This was in 2015, not this year. They were a lot more secretive about these modes back then.

[Paco]

Except they may have learned from that lotus debacle and no longer allow customers to use them ever unless probably last race and championship on the line, but even then doubtful. For me, that’s the biggest issue today is engine not being equal. If you paying for it, you should be given the same pu and same codes. I think it’s in bad form from Mercedes.. that said, if we had too 6 or 8 finishing all MErcedes PU, that would equally suck and demoralize any other PU people and make them leave.

Edited by Paco, 08 November 2017 - 16:25.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Can’t see the problem here.

You can’t expect the work team to release to a customer the exact same software and mapping. For various reasons that wouldn’t work.

[SCUDmissile]

This kinda thing I feel is why some of the RedBull/Max hype needs a check. Now that Renault have properly committed to F1 and are improving at a very quick rate, RedBull will become a competitor as well as a customer.

Throw in all the abuse Horner and Marko have given Renault and I doubt they will continue to get all the goodies from that powerplant.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

This kinda thing I feel is why some of the RedBull/Max hype needs a check. Now that Renault have properly committed to F1 and are improving at a very quick rate, RedBull will become a competitor as well as a customer.

Throw in all the abuse Horner and Marko have given Renault and I doubt they will continue to get all the goodies from that powerplant.

Also hence why they have ended there partnership after 2018!

[Ivanhoe]

This kinda thing I feel is why some of the RedBull/Max hype needs a check. Now that Renault have properly committed to F1 and are improving at a very quick rate, RedBull will become a competitor as well as a customer.
Throw in all the abuse Horner and Marko have given Renault and I doubt they will continue to get all the goodies from that powerplant.

Depends on the contract. What I understood from the current deal is that they get the same spec as the works team.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Depends on the contract. What I understood from the current deal is that they get the same spec as the works team.

Hardware maybe but what about the software and mapping

[AustinF1]

Interesting story in the Missed Apex podcast from ex-Lotus boss Matthew Carter. Here's the video, the story starts at 27:10.

 

2015 Spa, Grosjean was chasing Vettel for P3. Mercedes PU engineers told Lotus to put the engine into a certain mode they had never shown them before. Grosjean said the car changed entirely and he would've caught Vettel even if it wasn't for Vettel's late puncture. Lotus asked Mercedes what it was, Merc said nothing, and they never allowed them to use that engine mode again.

 

We knew about special engine modes, extra Q3 power and all. What's news to me is that those modes are 1) available in customer cars as well, 2) but it doesn't mean they're allowed to use them unless authorized to.

The words in bold ... those should be jumping off the page to everyone reading the op, and sending up big red flags. If it's true, as we have long expected, that the engine supplier is withholding info about certain engine modes and is in fact denying the use of those modes to teams not named Mercedes AMG Petronas F1, etc ... then I have a hard time calling F1 a sporting entity. I guess you could call it a sport between just the manufacturer teams with the rest just filling out the grid, but that's about it.

 

Everyone with eyes can see that F1 is a 2-tiered series. They might as well just admit it and run as 2 classes with separate championships. Manufacturer class and Privateer/Customer class.

Edited by AustinF1, 08 November 2017 - 18:18.

[kevinracefan]

only mercedes can use the map that could make the million dollar lump go BOOM..

 

all others must sludge around with 80% safety power setting..

 

that engineer probably got fired, LOL...

[kevinracefan]

Also hence why they have ended there partnership after 2018!

maybe..

[GrumpyYoungMan]

That word in bold ... that's the one that should be jumping off the page to everyone reading the op. If it's true, as we have long expected, that the engine supplier is withholding info about what the engine mode was and is in fact denying the use of that mode to teams not named Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 ... then I have a hard time calling F1 a sporting entity. I guess you could call it a sport between just the manufacturer teams with the rest just filling out the grid, but that's about it.

Grosjean says “allowed” but maybe Lotus knew about the settings but for what ever reason wouldn’t use them.

Is there any actual evidence to support this from any credible sources?

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 08 November 2017 - 17:52.

[Neno]

maybe..

I know this is hard to realize but you arent getting same engines in future. I laughing everytime, but it's true. No matter how hard you believe your Red Bull will have same engine status as manufacturer. Get yourself a engine deal and pray that manufacturer doesnt have a dream having their own team.

 

That's how F1 works. 

[kevinracefan]

Hardware maybe but what about the software and mapping

red bull probably doesn't want their crappy software.. heck, they re-wrote 1/2 of it for renault 2 years ago to fix the lump (rumored)..

[Ivanhoe]

Hardware maybe but what about the software and mapping

Yeah, that would only be hardware, but I think Red Bull has the resources to use their own software/mapping and they even use another fuel supplier.

Marko on this in 2015:

Q: As an engine customer, do you believe you would get the same A-spec engine as the works team?

HM: If it were a few horsepower less we would not be concerned. But in the end you can check that very easily with the GPS data and other parameters to see what you really get. The truth is that the engine - the hardware - is not the real issue. That is the software and the same fuel.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 08 November 2017 - 17:57.

[CSF]

Didn't Eddie Jordan lose it in Baku because Force India had been texted by Mercedes ordering Ocon to pit so he didn't hinder either of the Mercs?

 

Hmmm. Imagine it were Ferrari.

[SCUDmissile]

Depends on the contract. What I understood from the current deal is that they get the same spec as the works team.

Think about it like the DLC on a video game that's locked on the game disk unless you pay, or those Tesla's that have a range limit if you buy the cheaper version.

The thing you get is the same, but some things may be kept hidden. As I bet will happen (or is happening) between all the works and customer teams in F1.

[kevinracefan]

I know this is hard to realize but you arent getting same engines in future. I laughing everytime, but it's true. No matter how hard you believe your Red Bull will have same engine status as manufacturer. Get yourself a engine deal and pray that manufacturer doesnt have a dream having their own team.

 

That's how F1 works. 

uhhh... yeah, that's why red bull was still the factory team even though renault ran cars again, for how many years???    ???   ???...

 

red bull's input was more valuable than renault's at the time..

 

that's how this deal's worked..

 

renault was the dreamer...

[SCUDmissile]

Well if they can rewrite their own then fair play. I guess Force India and the like will have to get some programmers also

[Neno]

uhhh... yeah, that's why red bull was still the factory team even though renault ran cars again, for how many years???    ???   ???...

 

red bull's input was more valuable than renault's at the time..

 

that's how this deal's worked..

 

renault was the dreamer...

because you had contract signed with renault about factory status. And this was when Renault decided to leave F1 and become just engine supplier. And when Renault decided to come back and  have again their own team this started to change. This deal still works but  you got fair warning ahead few months ago that aint happening again after 2018. And they arent supplying you anymore, not under current terms.

 

Renault didnt invest likely at this point billion dollars. Buying own team, hiring now around 300+ people in Enstone, expand Enstone facility and leave Formula E so they have full focus just on F1, just to stay behind their customer team. Dont be delusional or mad when it eventually happens.   

Edited by Neno, 08 November 2017 - 18:13.

[AustinF1]

Funny thing is that it might not only be about customers vs. works team but also about customer vs.customer.

Engine manufacturers can basically decide WCC order of customer teams (and no threat to works team).

Didn't we hear the same from Williams about engine modes vs. works team some time ago?

This is exactly right and should send a shiver down all our "F1 fan" spines.

 

They could even offer different software versions or access to different specific modes, effectively creating multiple different versions of the same engine unless there's some rule forbidding it. Is there? If not, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if that's already happened. And in case anyone is wondering, No, I'm not just talking about Mercedes here.

Edited by AustinF1, 08 November 2017 - 19:53.

[TomNokoe]

Grosjean was defending P3, not chasing.

It's been known for a while, it sucks and is anti-competitive.

It's like Google's optimization of Android versus LG, Samsung, etc etc... Albeit that is a little less sinister!!

Edited by TomNokoe, 08 November 2017 - 18:21.

[kevinracefan]

because you had contract signed with renault about factory status. And this was when Renault decided to leave F1 and become just engine supplier. And when Renault decided to come back and  have again their own team this started to change. This deal still works but  you got fair warning ahead few months ago that aint happening again after 2018. And they arent supplying you anymore, not under current terms.

 

Renault didnt invest likely at this point billion dollars. Buying own team, hiring now around 300+ people in Enstone, expand Enstone facility just to stay behind their customer team. Dont be delusional or mad when it eventually happens.   

uhh - huh... hate to break it to ya, but at THIS POINT IN TIME they're still at a point where they have TO BORROW DRIVERS from Red Bull..

 

their time may come, but NOT GUARANTEED and NOT YET, LOL...

 

Red Bull is still the only way Renault can get on podiums and even win occasionally..

Edited by kevinracefan, 08 November 2017 - 18:17.

[Diablobb81]

Well if they can rewrite their own then fair play. I guess Force India and the like will have to get some programmers also

I seriously doubt that customers get acces let alone the ability to change engine software. From what i read Merc sends their own engineers to customers.

Edited by Diablobb81, 08 November 2017 - 18:18.

[MKSixer]

This is exactly right and should send a shiver down all our "F1 fan" spines.

And given all of this why aren't customer cars allowed?

[kevinracefan]

 Dont be delusional or mad when it eventually happens.   

some perspective on this..

 

McLaren Honda is now faster than the renault renault..

 

your guys have work to do.. (and drivers of your own to hire, LOL)

[Neno]

Ain't responding to childish comments. Sorry.