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Does F1 have two tiers? Should it run 2 classes/championships?


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Poll: Two Classes for F1? (79 member(s) have cast votes)

True or False: F1 is effectively a Two-Tiered racing series at this point.

  1. True (45 votes [56.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 56.96%

  2. False (27 votes [34.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 34.18%

  3. Don't know; Other (please explain in comments) (7 votes [8.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.86%

IF F1 continues to allow Manufacturers an engine advantage over Customer teams, should F1 run 2 classes and championships (One for Manufacturers. One for Customers)?

  1. Yes (11 votes [13.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.92%

  2. No (54 votes [68.35%])

    Percentage of vote: 68.35%

  3. Don't care. They've pretty much run me off already anyway. (7 votes [8.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.86%

  4. Don't care, because 'Muricans. (1 votes [1.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.27%

  5. Don't know (4 votes [5.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.06%

  6. I don't think the manufacturers hold an engine advantage over their customers. (2 votes [2.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.53%

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#51 Nonesuch

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 08:28

Voted True and Yes. There's no way a Force India or Williams is going to compete with teams who don't mind spending nearly half a billion euro on F1 racing. The only reason the gap is not much bigger is that the regulations are so tight that it's just about illegal to build a slow car.

 

Dozens of series have all manner of tiers. Even same class or car races. From privateer teams to female and junior drivers. It drags out the podium ceremonies a bit, but it doesn't matter much during the races.

 

Better yet, the FIA might consider if it wants to maintain a situation where teams owned and run by manufacturers also supply the rest of the teams with engines and other crucial components.



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#52 RandomG

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 08:34

The problem now is that manufacturers can turn the knob on their customer units at any time.

 

It wasn't like that in the Ford-Cosworth era. In fact the customers would often tune the engines themselves or with help of a third party.

 

That is true, the manufactuers have more power over the smaller teams. However someone like Sauber have had that case during pretty much their whole history. Ever since the had the Petronas (Ferrari) engines they were always subject to Ferrari's demands. Haas entered Formula One on the premise they would be a Ferrari surrogate. A few small teams in the 1990s, namely Minardi and Dallara where very similar. Force India was originally the McLaren B-Team before becoming a surrogate to Mercedes. Williams has generally been one of the works teams until 2014. The manufacturers certainly gained more power when Renault re-entered the sport as a race team. Before then, they contributed equally to a number of teams (Lotus, Red Bull, Williams etc), however since they have acquired their race team, the other Renault teams fell out of favour. 

 

Red Bull, however proves that a works deal isn't completely necessary. They still have a lot of bargaining power in their drivers' and the quality and resources of their team. Because of Red Bull, I would be skeptical of considering Formula One a two-tier format. 



#53 learningtobelost

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 08:35

Not for me thanks :)


Edited by learningtobelost, 09 November 2017 - 08:36.


#54 Nonesuch

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 08:40

Because of Red Bull, I would be skeptical of considering Formula One a two-tier format. 

 

The definition of the two tiers might need some adjusting. Full-manufacturer teams and customer-engine teams does not get to the heart of the issue, which is - as so often - money. Red Bull spends more than anyone except Mercedes, if the rumoured budgets are to be believed. They're firmly in that first tier, even if they don't have their own engine. They're actually underperforming relative to their spending habits.



#55 Ivanhoe

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 09:02

Well they arguably do have the best car of the grid, so they are not underperforming in that respect. Enginewise it's all a bit beyond their control, can hardly blame them for underperforming.



#56 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 09:09

Well they arguably do have the best car of the grid, so they are not underperforming in that respect. Enginewise it's all a bit beyond their control, can hardly blame them for underperforming.

 

Only in the last few races could they claim to have the best car on the grid. They were nowhere before that. 



#57 lustigson

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 09:26

I did this a couple of years back: http://forums.autosp...ts-trophy-2007/


Edited by lustigson, 09 November 2017 - 09:26.


#58 Laster

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 09:48

With over a second gap between the top three teams and the midfield, I’m inclined to say there is effectively a two tier championship. But I voted no to having two classes and championships, because the moment you do that, the manufacturers win - new rules will come to pass allowing them to extend their advantage, and you’ll never again see privateers winning in F1. I want to see the privateers take on the manufacturers, I love the underdog story, and that is stripped out of a sport the moment you create two tier championships.

Creating a budget cap and a stripping teams like Ferrari of their ‘historic’ payments is the only way to go. Prize money is their to be won based on your finishing position - no team should be shown any preference.

#59 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 10:23

He said "Ford Cosworth era" so I didn't narrow down to DFV.


Is that not what’s usually meant by the Ford Cosworth era? In later years Ford usually supplied a newer generation engine to their works team, usually Benetton, than their customers. Not just a better mode, an entirely new spec of engine.

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#60 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 10:24

But they can't negotiate with the supplier of the best engine, because that supplier won't supply them. Afaik neither will Ferrari.


Nobody is stopping them from doing it, apart from the suppliers themselves, who have every right to choose their customers.

#61 Nonesuch

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 11:13

Well they arguably do have the best car of the grid, so they are not underperforming in that respect. Enginewise it's all a bit beyond their control, can hardly blame them for underperforming.

 

That's certainly what Red Bull wants people to believe. After all, they've spent years complaining about Renault despite Mercedes being the only engine manufacturer to have won more races in this V6 era.

 

Red Bull supposedly spends about as much as, or even more than, teams that do build their own engines. While it's certainly true that there is a certain degree of in-house R&D that these manufacturers have on account of being, well, car manufacturers - the dependence of Red Bull on partners is largely their own choice.



#62 sopa

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 11:20

Two-tier championship would make sense if all participants in class A were faster than in class B. Which happens in WEC, or WRC and their subclasses. In 1987, when the "normally aspirated" championship was created in F1, those teams could barely make it into the points without attrition races.

 

But as of now, both Force India and Williams are ahead of both Renault and McLaren-Honda in the championship. And Red Bull is competing with Mercedes and Ferrari for race victories. While you could argue works team might have a little bit advantage over a customer, there is no distinct class A or class B in the overall results. If anything, having a more powerful engine is a greater differential, i.e it is better having a customer Merc than a works Honda. Maybe Honda should be in their own class B at the back of the field.  :p



#63 savvy2210

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 13:06

And same software? And access to all the same modes Mercedes has access to? I doubt it.

That's not true. As reported else where, Mercedes allowed a team to turn up their engine (because it suited them), but were not allowed to do it again. So the teams can do it, but Mercedes says no. 

 

Where  is Charlie Whiting on this?



#64 Ivanhoe

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 13:08

Nothing Charlie can do about that.



#65 Atreiu

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 13:11

Full blown spec customer cars is the way to go.



#66 statman

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 15:08

1987 had the right idea.

 

McLaren-TAG Porsche V6t
Tyrrell-Ford V8
Williams-Honda V6t
Brabham-BMW S4t
Zakspeed-Zakspeed S4t
Lotus-Honda V6t
AGS-Ford V8
March-Ford V8
Arrows-Megatron S4t
Benetton-Ford V6t
Osella-Alfa Romeo V8t
Minardi-Motori Moderni V6t
Ligier-Megatron S4t
Ferrari-Ferrari V6t
Larousse Lola-Ford V8
Coloni-Ford V8
 
:up:


#67 Cornholio

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 17:13

Two-tier championship would make sense if all participants in class A were faster than in class B. Which happens in WEC, or WRC and their subclasses. In 1987, when the "normally aspirated" championship was created in F1, those teams could barely make it into the points without attrition races.

 

But as of now, both Force India and Williams are ahead of both Renault and McLaren-Honda in the championship. And Red Bull is competing with Mercedes and Ferrari for race victories. While you could argue works team might have a little bit advantage over a customer, there is no distinct class A or class B in the overall results. If anything, having a more powerful engine is a greater differential, i.e it is better having a customer Merc than a works Honda. Maybe Honda should be in their own class B at the back of the field.  :p

 

Agreed, sportscars and rallying the lower classes actually run to clear different sets of technical regulations meaning there will always be performance gaps as a result. Similar thing in 1987 F1, two clearly defined separate engine regulations. The Clark and Chapman cups were actually scrapped for the last year of mixed turbos and NAs in 1988, because the idea that restricting the turbos even more was meant to be more of an equivalence formula, even if it didn't work out fully that way in practice (it hardly ever does).

 

In modern F1 everyone runs to the same technical regulations, some teams have more resources and/or better situations in terms of good in-house engine development, or are just plain better and will do a better job but that's not a multi-tier thing, and it's always been the case. Never mind different engine modes, Manor, TR and Sauber running year old Ferraris was rare to the point of noteworthy in the past 3 years, in the past it was the norm customer teams would get a 1 or even 2 or 3 year old engine based on what they could afford. Even when 90% of the teams ran DFVs the bigger teams often had access to better tuners, or smaller teams would be running older tired motors with more miles on them. The HP gaps were probably smaller but they were always there.

 

Plus while not necessarily relevant when talking about the present moment only, the pecking order can be very fluid over time. If someone had said around 2002/3 that the Jaguar and BAR organisations would sweep all titles between 2009-2017, and that from 2005-17 that Williams and the Minardi organisation would win the same number of races as each other, they'd have been carried off to the nearest padded cell.



#68 AustinF1

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 17:40

That's not true. As reported else where, Mercedes allowed a team to turn up their engine (because it suited them), but were not allowed to do it again. So the teams can do it, but Mercedes says no. 

 

Where  is Charlie Whiting on this?

But that's the point: IF the report is true, Mercedes was in control of what power settings Lotus could use. Lotus was not in control and apparently didn't even know the setting existed until Merc engineers told them to use it ... and were never allowed to use it again. And apparently it was a pretty significant boost over the modes they'd been running.


Edited by AustinF1, 09 November 2017 - 17:42.


#69 Grayson

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 17:47

 

Manufacturer/Works:

 

Mercedes AMG Petronas

Scuderia Ferrari

Renault Sport

Scuderia Torro Rosso Honda (placeholder for Red Bull Honda/AM - Cosworth in 2019)?

 

 

Privateer/Customer/Garagista:

 

Red Bull Racing

McLaren (potentially moving to Works class with a McLaren - Cosworth engine later on)

Force India

Williams

Haas 

Sauber

 

If F1 is so obviously two-tiered, we should be able to agree on who is in each of the two tiers.

 

Since Red Bull are so far ahead of Renault (even before we consider the idea of Toro Rosso being in the first tier), does that mean that we don't have a two-tiered system of F1? Force India couldn't possibly be considered first tier on the basis of their spend, the size of their staff, the relationship with their engine supplier, etc. but they're also comfortably beating one works team and thrashing another (assuming we consider McLaren Honda to be a works team).

 

So we either need a definition of the tiers which puts Renault and Honda in the bottom tier, or the premise that there are two distinct tiers falls apart.

 

None of that is to deny that there's a huge problem with inequality between the teams in F1, simply that you can't draw a line down the middle neatly enough to claim that it's two tiered.



#70 AustinF1

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 18:06

If F1 is so obviously two-tiered, we should be able to agree on who is in each of the two tiers.

 

Since Red Bull are so far ahead of Renault (even before we consider the idea of Toro Rosso being in the first tier), does that mean that we don't have a two-tiered system of F1? Force India couldn't possibly be considered first tier on the basis of their spend, the size of their staff, the relationship with their engine supplier, etc. but they're also comfortably beating one works team and thrashing another (assuming we consider McLaren Honda to be a works team).

 

So we either need a definition of the tiers which puts Renault and Honda in the bottom tier, or the premise that there are two distinct tiers falls apart.

 

None of that is to deny that there's a huge problem with inequality between the teams in F1, simply that you can't draw a line down the middle neatly enough to claim that it's two tiered.

We had that discussion a bit earlier in the thread. I just threw out that delineation above as an example. I'm not married to it and am open to suggestions. As I said earlier, where the line is drawn and the criteria used to draw it is debatable, but like others, I do believe there are two tiers. Re: the word "distinct" I didn't like that word choice immediately upon submitting the post, but after I submitted it I realized I can't change the title. 

 

ETA: Title updated to better reflect the discussion I'm looking to generate with this thread.


Edited by AustinF1, 09 November 2017 - 18:11.


#71 Gareth

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 18:08

Absolutely agree Grayson. I also agree with Nonesuch that there is broadly a division between the haves and the have nots, although Mclaren's woes also somewhat belie this.

Overall I think that NFL style revenue sharing would be a better way to build a more competitive series.

#72 PayasYouRace

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 18:09

Changed topic title as requested.

#73 AustinF1

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 18:14

Thanks payr!!