77 replies to this topic

[Graveltrappen]

https://www.motorspo...rmula-e-976480/

The start of big shifts? Or no big deal?

[PiperPa42]

No, It's the continuation of the shift in progress.

[TheRacingElf]

Well they have a history of being on the wrong side of the fence, so it's not really surprising in that sense. They will regret this, just like they did in 1945 ;)

Edited by TheRacingElf, 10 November 2017 - 14:32.

[Brian60]

It is the way of the future. I would say the big draw back for FE is the power unit management to preserve battery charge and of course the change of cars during the race. This is a weakness of that series F1 should be exploiting but isn't. I'd expect more big name sponsors to leave F1 by 2020, by that time FE will have had time to gain maximum exposure and be on the road to replacing F1 on the tv.

[H0R]

Well they have a history of being on the wrong side of the fence, so it's not really surprising in that sense. They will regret this, just like they did in 1945 ;)

 

Not funny.

[TheRacingElf]

It is the way of the future. I would say the big draw back for FE is the power unit management to preserve battery charge and of course the change of cars during the race. This is a weakness of that series F1 should be exploiting but isn't. I'd expect more big name sponsors to leave F1 by 2020, by that time FE will have had time to gain maximum exposure and be on the road to replacing F1 on the tv.

Formula E viewing figures don't show any sign of growth over their first 3 years, if Formula E really would be the future we would've and should've seen a growth but we don't.

It's a niche series, which is very good for what it is but it simply isn't going to appeal to the masses like F1 does for several different reasons.

[Disgrace]

Well they have a history of being on the wrong side of the fence, so it's not really surprising in that sense. They will regret this, just like they did in 1945 ;)

 

Never go full Brexit.

[Clatter]

It is the way of the future. I would say the big draw back for FE is the power unit management to preserve battery charge and of course the change of cars during the race. This is a weakness of that series F1 should be exploiting but isn't. I'd expect more big name sponsors to leave F1 by 2020, by that time FE will have had time to gain maximum exposure and be on the road to replacing F1 on the tv.

Think they are moving too 1 car for the race next year. As for the power management, well this is a series in its infantcy, so that will improve as technology improves.

[maximilian]

You can gripe about viewing figures all you like, but when a whole bunch of huge companies see real value in making an investment - and a great number of them have done so, and will continue to do so in Formula E - then there clearly is something of very real value there to be had.  Large companies don't screw around.  They look at advertising and investment in the most sober manner possible, and act according to their best bottom line interests, not out of emotional considerations.  As such, Formula E must be taken extremely seriously, not just in the so-called future, but NOW.

 

Formula E has made some mistakes, no doubt (such as the idiotic fan boost, which luckily already has been toned down a lot... it needs to just go away), and will need to keep constantly adapting to keep its momentum (especially as technology continues to outrun us all) ... but these days, everything and everybody has to do that to remain relevant on a global context.

[Loosenut]

I wonder if Bernie has a stake in FE that we don't yet know about?

[chipmcdonald]

F1 sitting on the fence while watching everyone jump over it.  

 

Again, again, again (again):

 

 

1) F1 must embrace the anachronistic gestalt of it's heritage - big, high revving, loud NA V10/12;

 

2) Get off the fence and make electric unlimited in power/technology or;

 

3) Get rid of the bureaucratic status-quo lie and have a real, pro-all manufacturer formula or;

 

4) Go fishing while F1 lists to port and eventually sinks. 

 

 

The strings are tuning up, the deck chairs are being arranged.  That is reality.

 

 

As an "a recreational activity people may choose to do that happens to have cars involved" Formula E is going to win.  Note to the amygdala deprived, that doesn't mean I like it (I don't), it's just reality.  It's lower key, it's not as pretentious, it's more accessible, it's *seriously quiet*, it's not as dangerous, it's

 

 

 

NICER.

 

 

 

Now, that's all not Formula 1 in my book, and many people's I suspect.

 

 

Yet, it would seem there is an invisible pull to "go that way, in that direction" in F1, which in turn can *only dilute what is Formula 1*.  Fence sitting.

 

 

 

 

YOU CAN'T "KIND OF" HAVE YOUR ELECTRIC/GREEN CAKE AND EAT IT, TOO. 

 

 

The more they try to go in that direction, the less it is "Formula 1", and it still falls short of Formula E.  You temporarily maintain a homogenized illusion of "things are ok" as the audience gets blended out; but ultimately you kill Formula 1.

[917k]

FE gets really popular and the FIA merges the series - as in, absorbs FE....there's no way the FIA will allow FE to actually compete with F1.

[JHSingo]

Strange move. Innovative as it may be, FE just doesn't have the following of F1, and likely won't for many, many years (if ever). I could understand being a sponsor in both, but leaving F1 for FE at this very early stage seems a very bizarre move indeed.

[amedeofelix]

'Dumps' is a misleading word.

[August]

FE gets really popular and the FIA merges the series - as in, absorbs FE....there's no way the FIA will allow FE to actually compete with F1.

 

I doubt FE will get even close to F1's popularity as long as the cars are considerably slower.

 

That being said, if FE ever becomes a true rival series for F1, I can see it being absorbed by F1. F1/FE rivalry would only divide and destruct the sport like the CART/IRL split did in America.

[Fatgadget]

Strange move. Innovative as it may be, FE just doesn't have the following of F1, and likely won't for many, many years (if ever). I could understand being a sponsor in both, but leaving F1 for FE at this very early stage seems a very bizarre move indeed.

Hey ho! The writing has been on the wall the shift from fossil fuels. And saying never ever  on this  is the height of folly. Yeah, for sure FE not as popular as F1 - YET!

[Kraken]

Formula E viewing figures don't show any sign of growth over their first 3 years, if Formula E really would be the future we would've and should've seen a growth but we don't.

It's a niche series, which is very good for what it is but it simply isn't going to appeal to the masses like F1 does for several different reasons.

Problem is that F1 wouldn't appeal to the masses if it started now. It's where it is because of the deals Ecclestone did to get it on prime tv slots and it rests a lot on history rather than what's happening now.

Speed of the cars isn't really an issue. For any series outside of F1 it's the quality of the racing that is important. Because of F1's "captive" audience they get away with having poor quality racing.

[spacekid]

I doubt F1 offers much in the way of value for money at the moment. It's appeal is becoming 'more selective' whilst it's moving behind a pay wall. I don't see that being an attractive combo for sponsors.

[PayasYouRace]

I’m struggling to think of what Hugo Boss’s current F1 involvement actually is right now.

[Maustinsj]

Mercedes sponsorship - around the headrests, I think.

[Nathan]

https://www.motorspo...rmula-e-976480/

The start of big shifts? Or no big deal?

 

No big deal.  Hugo was replaced lickity-split by Michael Kors at McLaren.  Fashion brands will always find appeal in F1.  Like watches.  So Hugo Boss wants a different image in how they brand.  Long standing companies need change from time-to-time.

[Garndell]

They are probably getting bigger ad spots (albeit with lower exposure) for the same or less money.  F1 is expensive to advertise in, FE isn't.

[superden]

I don't care who sponsors it, FE is as dull as ****.

[ArrowsLivery]

Weird. I guess they just want to lower the costs, because they won’t be reaching any people in that meme series.

[Marklar]

Strange move. Innovative as it may be, FE just doesn't have the following of F1, and likely won't for many, many years (if ever). I could understand being a sponsor in both, but leaving F1 for FE at this very early stage seems a very bizarre move indeed.

Probably it's just a excuse for either

1.) Financial reasons or
2.) IIRC there was a story about Mercedes being forced to part ways with Hugo Boss if they re-sign Hamilton since he signed a deal with a rival recently

Edit: Daily Mail link warning

 

 

A well-placed Formula One source has told The Mail on Sunday that the British driver has been offered a deal by fashion label Tommy Hilfiger.

This creates a clash of interest that places a major question mark over Hugo Boss’ involvement as the team’s kit suppliers.
The source added: ‘Lewis has got this deal going through with Tommy Hilfiger and now Mercedes have to sort out the Hugo Boss problem, and that links to his new contract talks. That’s going to be fun to see what happens.’

http://www.dailymail...1-conflict.html

Though nobody mentioned this yet, so probably it's 1.)

Edited by Marklar, 10 November 2017 - 17:03.

[JHSingo]

Hey ho! The writing has been on the wall the shift from fossil fuels. And saying never ever  on this  is the height of folly. Yeah, for sure FE not as popular as F1 - YET!

 

It won't be. How many series have we claimed will 'one day be as/more popular than F1'? A few years ago, a lot of people were saying the same about WEC. Look how that has turned out.

 

You look at comments section about a Formula E story, and you'll find that a significant proportion are negative about the series. Whether it's to do with the cars, tracks, or noise, FE just doesn't appeal to a lot of motorsport fans. So how will it rival, or better, F1 in popularity?

 

I'm as big a critic of F1 as they come - my posting history would reflect that - but I find it laughable that people genuinely think FE will rival F1 in popularity.

[Nonesuch]

... leaving F1 for FE at this very early stage seems a very bizarre move indeed.

 

Perhaps they're just chasing their audience, not so much in terms of reaching viewers but by being at the events that (they think) matter to the the electric car driving Hugo Boss customer, and by being able to use FE in their own marketing, etc.

 

They probably thought this through.

[SonGoku]

Nice excuse of BOSS, but Hamilton has forced their hand. Hilfiger is buddy buddy with Lewis and that picture of him and Neymar went worldwide viral. He has signed a deal with them. In other words, they needed to get rid of BOSS.

[BRG]

So Hugo Boss out, Tommy Hilfiger in, net change zero.

 

/thread.

Edited by BRG, 10 November 2017 - 17:24.

[Atreiu]

I wouldn't sponsor F-Halo either, or F-E.

Edited by Atreiu, 10 November 2017 - 17:55.

[Vettelari]

If I could buy stock in a racing series, Formula E would be on top of my "BUY" list and Formula 1 would be at the extreme bottom of my "SELL" list. Sure, FE is behind in every metric right now, but the insane amount of attention being given to it by the largest automobile companies involved in racing in the world (Save Toyota and Honda) shows where it is heading. If they are all willing to invest into it when it is as such a low point, imagine what is going to happen when it starts its inevitable growth in ratings and attendance.

 

It is foolish to say that FE doesn't have a future while listing the merits of F1. The manufacturers with all the money have spoken. F1 has NEVER had such backing from "works" manufacturers. Renault (Becomes Nissan in S5), Jaguar, Mercedes (Rumored to be taking over from Venturi in S6), BMW (Taking over Andretti in S5), Peugeot, Audi, Porsche (Rumored to be taking over from Dragon in S6), and Mahindra. NextTEV and Techeetah are the only teams that are not backed by large manufacturers, but Techeetah is set to become a works backed manufacturer team in S5. I can't wait to see which manufacturer joins up next!

 

What an unbelievable lineup. Talk about some insane competition.

[PayasYouRace]

F1 has NEVER had such backing from "works" manufacturers. Renault (Becomes Nissan in S5), Jaguar, Mercedes (Rumored to be taking over from Venturi in S6), BMW (Taking over Andretti in S5), Peugeot, Audi, Porsche (Rumored to be taking over from Dragon in S6), and Mahindra. NextTEV and Techeetah are the only teams that are not backed by large manufacturers, but Techeetah is set to become a works backed manufacturer team in S5. I can't wait to see which manufacturer joins up next!

Never?

It wasn’t that long ago that Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW, Renault, Honda, Toyota and Ford all had works involvement in F1 at the same time. Go back a little more and you’ll see Peugeot and Yamaha involved too.

I get that you’re excited about FE’s manufacturer entry, but there’s no need to make stuff up.

[JHSingo]

If they are all willing to invest into it when it is as such a low point, imagine what is going to happen when it starts its inevitable growth in ratings and attendance.

 

Imagine what happens when the budgets inevitably go up, yes.

 

I've said this several times on this forum before, but having a series so heavily dominated by manufacturers is a recipe for disaster in the long run. Phasing out the independent teams and bringing in manufacturers may well be good now, in terms of the press coverage it gets etc. But as we've seen time and time again in motorsport, you have to wonder what will happen when those with the money suddenly don't want to play anymore.

 

FE will be a boom and bust series - calling it now.

Edited by JHSingo, 10 November 2017 - 18:58.

[Nonesuch]

imagine what is going to happen when it starts its inevitable growth in ratings and attendance.

 
A lot of "inevitable" things never happened or failed to outgrow the initial excitement.

 

Formula E is about to start its fourth season. The test-only predecessor of the car made its debut in 2010.

 

It's no longer new. Lots of people have already had a chance to give it a go, have already seen what it's all about.
 

The manufacturers with all the money have spoken.

 
The same manufacturers who flocked to GT1 and Le Mans in the 1990s, to F1 in the early 2000s? Manufacturers are rarely in things for the long haul.

It'll be interesting to see how many stick around when Formula E becomes less of a spec-series which they can rebrand on the cheap.

Edited by Nonesuch, 10 November 2017 - 19:31.

[Vielleicht]

Bold move but not entirely surprising. Companies will always like to be associated with things that will boost their image to the public. 

 

FE will be a boom and bust series - calling it now.

Even if this turn out to be an accurate prediction, I still think FE's legacy will be felt for much longer than other boom and bust series. The manufacturers want to develop EV tech/branding and currently FE is the only place where they can do that. So whilst I imagine costs will go up and manufacturers will start pulling out, I don't expect them to jump back to what came before. They will probably want to move over to future EV classes of GT, Rally, Rallycross, Touring cars etc. 

[Disgrace]

It won't be. How many series have we claimed will 'one day be as/more popular than F1'? A few years ago, a lot of people were saying the same about WEC. Look how that has turned out.

 

You look at comments section about a Formula E story, and you'll find that a significant proportion are negative about the series. Whether it's to do with the cars, tracks, or noise, FE just doesn't appeal to a lot of motorsport fans. So how will it rival, or better, F1 in popularity?

 

I'm as big a critic of F1 as they come - my posting history would reflect that - but I find it laughable that people genuinely think FE will rival F1 in popularity.

 

The comments section was mostly negative? What a revelation.

[RacingGreen]

Formula E viewing figures don't show any sign of growth over their first 3 years, if Formula E really would be the future we would've and should've seen a growth but we don't.

It's a niche series, which is very good for what it is but it simply isn't going to appeal to the masses like F1 does for several different reasons.

 

There are several big players involved in FE, but for a variety of reasons they seem happy to keep it pretty low key at the moment and not base their marketing on it. As soon as they ramp up their marketing efforts promoting themselves through a more high profile involvement as being high tech / sustainable / high-performance leaders etc which they are proving via FE then I think you will see that growth. As I see it there is no intrinsic reason that FE can't have bigger appeal although I admit it still has some technical issues that may hold it back in the short term, but none that can't be ironed out.

[August]

I'm not overly pessimistic about FE's future outlook.

 

It has a bit of a look of a boom-and-bust series, similar to what the WEC was recently, etc. But the R&D associated with Formula E is highly relevant for manufacturers; there will be lots of room for the development of electric vehicles for a long time.

 

Even if manufacturers don't achieve success or attract audience in FE, they still get return on their investment as they get to develop electric drivetrain technology. Because of that, I expect FE to remain attractive to manufacturers for quite some time now.

 

Still, manufacturer involvement doesn't mean people will tune in. The FE cars still look painfully slow to me. I'm sure the day will come when FE cars can match Indy/F2/Super Formula cars in performance; that's when it can become a true alternative for F1. Until then, FE is a niche sport. But I expect solid manufacturer involvement, at least as long as there are not too many electric series.

[RacingGreen]

So Hugo Boss out, Tommy Hilfiger in, net change zero.

 

/thread.

 

 

When you lose a sponsor like Hugo Boss that has been in the sport since sponsoring Jochen Mass back in the 70's I think you should ask why.

[fosters35]

I doubt FE will get even close to F1's popularity as long as the cars are considerably slower.

For TV viewing, the speed of the cars is largely irrelevant.
F1 does a terrible job of capturing the speed with far away shots showing cars coming towards you down the entire pit straight or cameras moving from one advertising board to the next while a car happens to be in shot.

For the new generation of viewers, FE would appear to be more exciting than F1 and doesn't last as long which is key is today's world.

Plus it's on free TV...

[Fatgadget]

Formula E viewing figures don't show any sign of growth over their first 3 years, if Formula E really would be the future we would've and should've seen a growth but we don't.

It's a niche series, which is very good for what it is but it simply isn't going to appeal to the masses like F1 does for several different reasons.

Not doubting you,but care to provide empirical evidence backing that up? And how long did it take F1 to be what it is today? 3 years?   FE is in its fledgling days FFS. Still finding it's feet so to speak. And yes car changes mid race are a bit meh.But. There is no question that before long advances in battery tech and charging techniques will render that a thing of the past.

[August]

For TV viewing, the speed of the cars is largely irrelevant.
F1 does a terrible job of capturing the speed with far away shots showing cars coming towards you down the entire pit straight or cameras moving from one advertising board to the next while a car happens to be in shot.

The Mickey Mouse tracks help to hide the FE cars' lack of speed, though seeing them at Monaco shows how slow they are for open-wheel cars.

[StanBarrett2]

Not funny.

But very sharp !!

[Anuity]

I only love F1 since a kid in 92. And I like F1 1992-98 more than now. That doesn't matter.
But it feels like I've heard more about FE in recent years than I did about F1. And I don't care about FE at all. But just hearing about it makes it worrying. At the same time, young people are all about hipsters/eco stuff is that any wonder they deny F1?
I think it's inevitable that both series will merge in the end.
But still I find it worrying that brands are shifting from F1

[Quickshifter]

Manufacturers love Formula E because it is cheap and is relevant for the future as for as developing the technology for electric cars is concerned. People need to differentiate between manufacturer interest and fan interest. Formula E is a technology demonstration platform meant for the promotion of Electric cars and technology and the emphasis on pure racing element one which excites and enthrals fans is negligible.

Who knows in the distant future how it will fare but in the short to medium term i don't see it being competition to F1 as a serious racing entity. And it is not just that they have to change cars mid way rather the lack of the basic elements be it speed, aesthetics, noise, the lack of the best drivers, lack of Top tier racing venues it just looses out heavily. Yes it can garner some audience but for a f1 fan, a WEC fan, Nascar Fan, Indycar fan, Touring car fan, etc Formula E simply lacks the soul of racing cars.

Edited by Quickshifter, 10 November 2017 - 22:37.

[ArrowsLivery]

If I could buy stock in a racing series, Formula E would be on top of my "BUY" list and Formula 1 would be at the extreme bottom of my "SELL" list. Sure, FE is behind in every metric right now, but the insane amount of attention being given to it by the largest automobile companies involved in racing in the world (Save Toyota and Honda) shows where it is heading. If they are all willing to invest into it when it is as such a low point, imagine what is going to happen when it starts its inevitable growth in ratings and attendance.

 

It is foolish to say that FE doesn't have a future while listing the merits of F1. The manufacturers with all the money have spoken. F1 has NEVER had such backing from "works" manufacturers. Renault (Becomes Nissan in S5), Jaguar, Mercedes (Rumored to be taking over from Venturi in S6), BMW (Taking over Andretti in S5), Peugeot, Audi, Porsche (Rumored to be taking over from Dragon in S6), and Mahindra. NextTEV and Techeetah are the only teams that are not backed by large manufacturers, but Techeetah is set to become a works backed manufacturer team in S5. I can't wait to see which manufacturer joins up next!

 

What an unbelievable lineup. Talk about some insane competition.

 

LOL. If number of manufacturers was the most important thing, then GT3 and its derivatives is by far the healthiest series. Besides, FE "works" teams all use the exact same car except some tiny differences in the drivetrain. Technology that has been perfected in trains for close to a 100 years now. 

 

Bold move but not entirely surprising. Companies will always like to be associated with things that will boost their image to the public. 

 

Even if this turn out to be an accurate prediction, I still think FE's legacy will be felt for much longer than other boom and bust series. The manufacturers want to develop EV tech/branding and currently FE is the only place where they can do that. So whilst I imagine costs will go up and manufacturers will start pulling out, I don't expect them to jump back to what came before. They will probably want to move over to future EV classes of GT, Rally, Rallycross, Touring cars etc. 

 

The big manufacturers spend billions on R&D, for actual road car developments. Their minuscule expenditure in FE couldn't be more irrelevant in the grand scheme of electric powered vehicles.

 

For TV viewing, the speed of the cars is largely irrelevant.
F1 does a terrible job of capturing the speed with far away shots showing cars coming towards you down the entire pit straight or cameras moving from one advertising board to the next while a car happens to be in shot.

For the new generation of viewers, FE would appear to be more exciting than F1 and doesn't last as long which is key is today's world.

Plus it's on free TV...

 

How is FE more exciting? 

[NixxxoN]

Good ridance Hugo Boss... FE is boring as heck and will be for a long long time, until they invent a revolutionary battery technology that makes them far far more compact and light than what we have now...

[Vielleicht]

...but for a f1 fan, a WEC fan, Nascar Fan, Indycar fan, Touring car fan, etc Formula E simply lacks the soul of racing cars.

One of the things I've always found frustrating in threads like this is how much it becomes Formula E vs traditional motorsport. I don't see any reason to say that one cannot enjoy both types, does it always have to be one or the other? I like Formula 1, WEC, IndyCar etc. but I also like Formula E.

 

What Formula E has managed thus far in a short space of time is impressive. It would be a huge and difficult undertaking for it to reach the levels of popularity that F1 enjoys, but never say never - there are lots of factors in the coming decades that we cannot predict.  But for the near future I think comparisons with F1 are mostly irrelevant and Formula E should be celebrated as a new, distinct category that adds to the strength and variety of motorsport as a whole.

[Spillage]

The point when Formula E usurps F1 as the pinnacle of motorsport is the point F1 goes full electric anyway. It won't happen before then.

[PeterScandlyn]

Nice excuse of BOSS, but Hamilton has forced their hand. Hilfiger is buddy buddy with Lewis and that picture of him and Neymar went worldwide viral. He has signed a deal with them. In other words, they needed to get rid of BOSS.

 

Is this enough to start a Hamilton to Williams rumour   

 

I mean they are seeking a partner for Stroll....

And, Paddy's there too. Could be the start of a happy relationship.