327 replies to this topic

[RacingGreen]

There are a number of sources suggesting a redesign of LMP cars to resemble showroom cars is being considered.

 

https://www.motorspo...ce-cars-978750/

 

https://jalopnik.com...look-1820440631

 

and of course our very own https://www.autospor...-road-car-looks

 

With Toyota possibly the only manufacturer LMP1 entry next year do we want to watch a race between cars that look like Toyota Supras ?

 

Will it attract other super-car manufacturers into, or back, to the fold ?

 

Do we even need a manufacturer involvement at the top level in sports car/ prototype racing ?

 

What are your thoughts.....

Edited by RacingGreen, 14 November 2017 - 21:30.

[kissTheApex]

Seems to me a vain attempt (proposed attempt) to bring back the olden days where the “prototype” cars such as the P330, GT looked they belonged on the road.

As the namesake implies, it is prototype racing after all. There are many pro/amateur/club races what’s being raced is exactly what you can drive off the showroom.

[TennisUK]

Since it is going to necessarily involve some sort of performance balancing, absolutely, not interested at all, no.

[PayasYouRace]

I do think the current prototype classes have become very generic. My favourite times for the top class of sports car racing were the Group C days and the first GT1 era. I’m sure more than a few would agree.

Cars like the Porsche 962, Jaguar XJR-9 and Sauber C9 weren’t exactly road cars but they had distinctive looks about them. The likes of the Porsche 911 GT1, Mercedes CLK GT1 and Toyota GT1 may have had a couple of road legal homologation examples but they still looked like top class sports prototypes. So I reckon that’s the sort of level I’d want to see from top level sports cars. The current LMPs are a little too much like closed wheel formula cars for my liking.

[boomn]

I don't think prototypes need to look more like road cars, they just need to look cooler and sleeker.  Get rid of the shark fin.  Figure out a different solution for the front wheel arch vents that currently makes aerodynamicists prioritize moving air around the sides of the wheels instead of over the top and contributes so much to the strange, stubby front pontoons.  Change what ever rule lead to the those bizarre Oreca 07 rear wheel pods.  Maybe allow for bigger rear wings like the much-worshiped Group C cars, or a bigger taller rear diffuser instead.   edit: I think the driver, or at least the windshield, should be moved further back too.  Current prototypes look oddly front heavy

 

I would much, much prefer to see rule changes of this sort to push the car designs in a different direction, than throwing up their hands and going with a solution that relies on more BoP

Edited by boomn, 14 November 2017 - 22:24.

[johnmhinds]

Which Toyota road car are they going to base a LMP1 car design on? They don't sell any rear engine sports cars.

Edited by johnmhinds, 15 November 2017 - 00:04.

[Vielleicht]

Which Toyota road car are they going to base a LMP1 car design on? They don't sell any near engine sports cars.

The Prius!

[PayasYouRace]

Which Toyota road car are they going to base a LMP1 car design on? They don't sell any near engine sports cars.

Do they not make the MR2 any more?

[ArrowsLivery]

The current prototypes are incredibly ugly. I would like to see LMP1 adopt a similar look to Super GT and take it from there.

The Prius!

There is a cool Prius in the GT300 class.

Edited by ArrowsLivery, 14 November 2017 - 22:55.

[Vielleicht]

I do really quite like the Mazda DPi, but can't say the same for the others. Cross me a current Mazda DPi with a Toyota GT-One and I'll drool for eternity.

Edited by Vielleicht, 14 November 2017 - 22:59.

[johnmhinds]

Do they not make the MR2 any more?

They stopped making the MR2 a decade ago.

 

I don't know what any of Toyota's LMP1 involvement has been advertising to be honest.

[Afterburner]

Prototypes? No way. The whole allure of the prototype class is precisely that it's something you can't buy for yourself. You want something you can? GT. It's that simple.

Edited by Afterburner, 14 November 2017 - 23:55.

[Vielleicht]

I'd actually rather see this all the other way around. Have road cars taking design cues from the prototypes.. though perhaps not the current set. A hypothetical set of future prototypes that look awesome.

Edited by Vielleicht, 14 November 2017 - 23:54.

[RacingGreen]

I voted No because I like the idea of prototype racing but the current/recent cars don't really look that inspiring to me compared with the concept cars that the companies produce at car shows etc, or the old group C cars.

 

 

They have to do something to appeal to more manufacturers, without writing rules in such a way that the privateers can't compete, but don't think that just having the WEC for GTE is the way to go. 

 

 

Computer game cars shouldn't look cooler than real cars. The WEC should be the place for some of those 2 seater cool concepts (maybe not the ones that look like a F1 car though.)

Edited by RacingGreen, 15 November 2017 - 00:05.

[Jerem]

Supposedly they want the cars to look more distinctive, but they can't even get distinctive painting schemes on the current LMP1.
If all the F1 cars had the same paintjob, they would also all look the same...

[THEWALL]

Personally I haven't followed sports car racing in general because it has always been confusing for me and therefore has not interested me enough to put in the work to understand it better. Too many different categories in too many different championships in too many different countries together with a poor coverage have conspired to not awaken my curiosity enough. And maybe it's just me but seeing different categories on track at the same time is not only confusing but also kind of uncool. IMO if they managed to unify a category and make it international like F1, with cars as great looking as the group Cs for example and speeds close to F1, it would pose a serious competition to F1... 

[highdownforce]

Like this...

 

 

This...

 

 

Or This?

 

[BMWTeamBigazzi]

Bring back Group C!! If every other manufacturer back then, followed Porsche's lead in the 956/962, i.e making it available to all and sundry!! Top Line Sportscar racing wouldn't be in the mess it is now! I mean think about it?? if it wasn't for 956/962, would we have seen Reinhold Joest's little team then, blossom into the sportscar powerhouse it is today? of course it should also be about teams running these cars too..... and if you tuned in for the Classic 24h at Daytona recently....there's probably more Group C/IMSA GTP cars out  there than today's modern stuff! Who's even going to want run a classic LMP1 Toyota in 30 years time? other than Toyota itself? 

Maybe actually bring something that captures the imagination? Like the Porsche 956/962, Lancia LC2, Sauber C9, TWR Jags, Kremer's Mad Porsche's of the day.....Sorry but today's Sportscars have none of that allure, and that's what is missing in my opinion.

Edited by BMWTeamBigazzi, 15 November 2017 - 02:23.

[V8 Fireworks]

Seems to me a vain attempt (proposed attempt) to bring back the olden days where the “prototype” cars such as the P330, GT looked they belonged on the road.

 

I disagree with the idea.

 

Does everyone somehow forget what happened last time this was the rule!? 

 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 November 2017 - 04:04.

[V8 Fireworks]

Personally I haven't followed sports car racing in general because it has always been confusing for me and therefore has not interested me enough to put in the work to understand it better. Too many different categories in too many different championships in too many different countries together with a poor coverage have conspired to not awaken my curiosity enough. And maybe it's just me but seeing different categories on track at the same time is not only confusing but also kind of uncool. IMO if they managed to unify a category and make it international like F1, with cars as great looking as the group Cs for example and speeds close to F1, it would pose a serious competition to F1... 

 

A good entry point is GT3.  It's balance of performance but it's still a lot of fun.  You can start by watching the Bathurst 12 hour, which is very entertaining.

[V8 Fireworks]

Which Toyota road car are they going to base a LMP1 car design on? They don't sell any rear engine sports cars.

 

Obviously they would change to a front engined design.

 

 

[HeadFirst]

Better question ... Should cars I can afford look like WEC cars? 

[V8 Fireworks]

Better question ... Should cars I can afford look like WEC cars? 

 

You want a car with no boot space, cramped cabin space, and which is difficult to get in and out of? 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 November 2017 - 04:06.

[Kalmake]

Manufacturers want to drop the aero dev costs and make it all about engines.

[V8 Fireworks]

Manufacturers want to drop the aero dev costs and make it all about engines.

 

But this is the opposite of LMP2, where equalised (or the same) power unit and different aero works quite well to have a good field.

 

 I cannot see negotiations going well with such opposing views between works teams and privateers. 

 

IMO, it is crucial that LMP1 and LMP2 are in the same performance level / class, so we can have the largest possible competition for outright victory. 

 

Surely Toyota would be happier to just dust off their 3.5L V8, increase it to 4.0L and have it BOP'ed against the AER LMP2 engine?   [Plus welcome back Judd and all the other LMP2 V8s on a BOP basis too?  Perhaps Renault could modify their Mecachrome/Renault GP2 V8 to power their Alpine car plus customers etc.]

 

So you'd have a chassis competition with a range of equalised power units available to all LMP teams. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 November 2017 - 04:54.

[TF110]

Are people being deliberately obtuse regarding the intent of this or is there some joke that's not very funny I missed? They're not saying to go back to homologation specials and they're not saying to make the car look exactly like a prius. Also, this is for the future lmp1 rules, as in 2020/2021, not 2018.  The whole reason of doing this is that's what manufacturers want. I don't want current Super GT to be lmp1. I don't mind a car like this though-

 

 

Imo, that's nearly perfect. A more modern version of this would be damn near perfect. LMGTP was great imo. They don't need to do the car up in a way that mimics road cars exactly, but you see a clear brand identity. DP's were ugly, and DPi doesn't go far enough, plus they look generic. The Mazda has a nose job and headlights at least, the others don't. I don't see Cadillac or Nissan or Acura in any of their DPi's. But with the car above, you know it's a Mercedes just by looking at the front. 

 

Older Super GT's from before the DTM like rules were ok, but they look more like super GT cars (hence the name?  )-

 

[proviz]

Where's the MB identity in that CLR other than the headlights and three-pointed star? Of course Mercedes stubbornly insisted it was there and that came to haunt them forever with the pics of flying Silver Arrows!

The top class of Le Mans should never, ever hark back to what was before. It must reflect progress in a way that is clear for all to see from the shapes of competing cars. Motor sport should not go out of its way to please those who only drool for aesthetics, at least not when that doesn't enhance performance.

[chunder27]

I vote against manufacturers mainly because they have a terrible track record of ruining racing series they get involved in.  DTM, ITC, WSPC, GroupC, WEC.

 

If they are very cleverly policed and the organiser (ACO, DORNA etc) get their strategy right from the off it can work, as it seems to in NASCAR or F1.

 

But far too quickly they rush to embrace manufacturers, give them too much of what they want and then are left with nothing when the manufacturer pulls out.

 

There was a window when hybrid was the way forward, but now it is electric and WEC has been dropped like a stone by **** scared manufacturers desperate to appear to be relevant, in a garbage race series that is a toy for them.

[Kraken]

If they're not going to make the cars look different from each other then they need to bring in some rules on liveries. At one stage Audi,Porsche and Toyota were pretty much identical at a quick look.
 

[maverick69]

I think the current LMP1 and LMP2 cars look absolutely horrid. Further personified by the beyond horrific, mandatory "fin".

 

So yes, I would like to see a premium placed on GTO "roadcars". 

[OvDrone]

Yeah, whatever; I don't even know what LMP1 is anymore.

[Nonesuch]

If a manufacturer wants to put a gaudy grille on their car, more power to them! Just don't mandate it it in the rules. There's a reason cars made for actual high-performance on racing circuits don't have them.

 

As for this by Pascal Vasselon: "At the moment an LMP1 is a kind of generic prototype and you have to paint it to put your mark on it".

 

LMP1 cars are "generic" because all three manufacturers had the brilliant idea to paint them in white/black/red. That's on them, not the cars.

 

They're very easy to tell apart by shape if you pay even a little bit of attention.

[Lennat]

I don't think prototypes need to look more like road cars, they just need to look cooler and sleeker.  Get rid of the shark fin.  Figure out a different solution for the front wheel arch vents that currently makes aerodynamicists prioritize moving air around the sides of the wheels instead of over the top and contributes so much to the strange, stubby front pontoons.  Change what ever rule lead to the those bizarre Oreca 07 rear wheel pods.  Maybe allow for bigger rear wings like the much-worshiped Group C cars, or a bigger taller rear diffuser instead.   edit: I think the driver, or at least the windshield, should be moved further back too.  Current prototypes look oddly front heavy

 

I would much, much prefer to see rule changes of this sort to push the car designs in a different direction, than throwing up their hands and going with a solution that relies on more BoP

 

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[Kershy]

It would be much better for differentiation in LMP1 cars so people can tell them apart by more than just a paint job, even just having headlights like their road cars.

 

I think this is what they're after:

 

https://www.digitalt...gt-le-mans-car/

 

And if it is Im all for it.

Edited by Kershy, 15 November 2017 - 09:06.

[SenorSjon]

We already have the GT-classes for 'road relevance'. I rather see them getting rid of BOP. I found the GT-tension artificial when the cars where within a few seconds the whole 24 hours, unable to overtake each other. 

 

I only follow LeMans though. That is the only track with a bit of proper length to fan out the field. On shorter tracks, it is just too crowded with slower cars.

 

And make the 24h of the Nurburgring on the Northschleife, more room for cars..

[superden]

Manufacturers. What a bunch of c ...

[Nonesuch]

And make the 24h of the Nurburgring on the Northschleife, more room for cars. .

 
The Nürburgring 24h (by ADAC) is already on the Nordschleife+GP circuit?

[SenorSjon]

The WEC-version is not.

[Cornholio]

The problem I can see with the whole styling them like road cars idea is, surely the manufacturers would already, if there wasn't an aerodynamic disadvantage in doing so?

 

In other words, welcome to aero-BOP 

[Nonesuch]

The WEC-version is not.

 

ADAC's race is the only "24h of the Nürburgring".

 

But the WEC's six hour race there has indeed been GP-circuit only.

[proviz]

To be able to compete on the Nordschleife LMP1 would have to be slowed down so much it would no longer be anything like LMP1. Walter Röhrl has only just gone on record saying that Porsche's latest 911 GT2 RS is too fast for the long circuit!

[chunder27]

GT3 cars are almost too fast for the Ring

 

But only really because they spend most of it sharing with far slower stuff.

 

Amazing to think Group C raced there really!!

[Spillage]

Nah. Let's be honest, if they looked like road cars they'd look like supercars, and I can't buy one of those anyway.

[V8 Fireworks]

Nah. Let's be honest, if they looked like road cars they'd look like supercars, and I can't buy one of those anyway.

 

A Lotus Eclat is relatively affordable, if you consider that a supercar. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 November 2017 - 11:26.

[learningtobelost]

Nah. Let's be honest, if they looked like road cars they'd look like supercars, and I can't buy one of those anyway.

 

You should probably move your assets off-shore. 

From an aesthetic perspective, they only need 2 rules IMO:

 

1) Either ban or significantly reduce the fin. The reasoning is solid, but the implementation by manufacturers has been seriously ugly.

2) Mandate that the paint scheme has to be ok'd by public vote. Honestly, the crap that the manufacturers come up with year on year is diabolical. See also: F1.

[amedeofelix]

Sportsacrs to me will always be the true Constructors World Championship. Adding that to F1 and drivers titles to Sportscars is to me not quite an irrelevance, but for F1 drivers titles are paramount and for Sportscars the constructors titles are.  Constructors are car makers not little garages that just make racing cars, or worse just run racing cars made by specialist makers.  Top flight motorsports was effectively created by and for manufacturers NOT little privateers. They have plenty of catagories for them.

[JHSingo]

There's far greater problems with LMP1 than what they look like, so I don't really care to be honest. The priority should be on making it a far more accessible, competitive class.

 

Sadly, I do think manufacturers are essential to sportscar racing - particularly in the case of Le Mans, or other big events. I find it hard to get excited by the prospect of next year's WEC season in LMP1, with the grid propped up by some random odds and sods. No disrespect to Ginetta and whoever else is there, but they're not going to be challenging Toyota, are they?

[SenorSjon]

To be able to compete on the Nordschleife LMP1 would have to be slowed down so much it would no longer be anything like LMP1. Walter Röhrl has only just gone on record saying that Porsche's latest 911 GT2 RS is too fast for the long circuit!

 

There is no such thing. Driver skill will be more important then.

[Mat13]

McLaren are up for it:

https://www.autospor...nterest-in-lmp1

[V8 Fireworks]

McLaren are up for it:

https://www.autospor...nterest-in-lmp1

 

I don't mean to laugh but McLaren could compete in LMP1 as it is and choose not to, heck they could compete in GTE and choose not to.