75 replies to this topic

[Will]

It seems that the McLaren and Mercedes young Brit proteges are being set up for McLaren and Force India reserve driver roles accordingly, about 13 years after I created the first Lewis Hamilton thread in this forum   . Any opinions about the merits of both and how they may progress alongside each other? Will be interesting to see how things develop over the next few years.

[henke1972]

I am deeply impressed by these youngsters, especially by Norris this year in F3. I think he will have a bright future. Regarding Russell I am not so sure. 

 

However...my personal favourite of the young ones is Joel Eriksson, who was rfighting for the championchip in the tiny tiny tiny Motopark team.

[Paul Parker]

It seems that the McLaren and Mercedes young Brit proteges are being set up for McLaren and Force India reserve driver roles accordingly, about 13 years after I created the first Lewis Hamilton thread in this forum   . Any opinions about the merits of both and how they may progress alongside each other? Will be interesting to see how things develop over the next few years.

 

Assuming that they are both up to F1 standard and then some it seems to me that they are wholly dependent upon the F1 market and money.

 

If you go back down the years post JYS you will notice, with exception, that British drivers have too often not made the top teams. There were/are a number of serious might have beens, some very good indeed but their F1 careers were wasted on 2nd or 3rd rate cars and not enough backing.

 

Currently we have but one driver in F1 and he is a perfect example of what can happen if you are driving the best or second best car in the single seater classes. Lewis Hamilton's rise to fame and fortune would never have been so successful despite his brilliance, if he had not been plugged into a top team from the get go. Indeed Lewis never had to make do or get by in any of his categories if I recall correctly.

 

The two you have mentioned are self evidently pdg but that's not enough, you need uber sponsorship and the right connections. This is not to deny Hamilton's abilities which are remarkable and undeniable before anybody takes offence but the chances of this happening again are on a scale of 10 about 1 or 2.

[McLaren]

Think that they are the first of a wave of young british talent that will at very least partake in Grand Prix weekends in the next 5-6 years. Obviously they have both come of the back of very successful seasons in GP3 (Russel winning the title) and European F3 Championship (Norris winning the title). 

 

Let's see who can be the first to get a full race seat in F1. Difficult to say who is more talented.. but Norris has really impressed me considering his age.

[kraduk]

I think they both stand a chance as timing is very important, Norris has this on his side more than Russel, as there are a bunch of top drivers that are probably going to retire in the next few years which will create opportunity.

[Cliff]

Lando seems like the real deal, but time will tell with him. Not too impressed by Russell. He's had quite a few average seasons in single seaters and the seasons he did get good results were in arguably very weak fields.

[TheManAlive]

Hopefully they will both race in gp2. It will be the first gp2 season I have looked forward to watching since 2006 and Hamilton vs piquet, which was a joy to watch and started my support of Lewis.

Both drivers have a good shot at f1 in a good team. Lando will replace either a retiring alonso or a vandoorne. It would be funny to watch whether Fred gets flashbacks to 07 if he finds himself partnering the new young British driver brought up through the ranks by Mckaren!

[DutchQuicksilver]

I can see Russell driving for Force India in 2019 when Perez or Ocon leaves. Norris will probably take over Alonso’s seat in 2020, unless Vandoorne doesn’t improve next season.

[Quickshifter]

The ease with which Norris set really  fast lap times in Hungary F1 test shows the kid has bright future ahead of him. He will be in the illustrious company of Fernando Alonso as a third  driver for Mclaren. Mclaren are in really good shape as far as drivers are concerned with Fernando, Stoffel and Lando.

[TomNokoe]

Norris is the business.

Russell still looks like a child, freaks me out.

[jjcale]

It seems that the McLaren and Mercedes young Brit proteges are being set up for McLaren and Force India reserve driver roles accordingly, about 13 years after I created the first Lewis Hamilton thread in this forum   . Any opinions about the merits of both and how they may progress alongside each other? Will be interesting to see how things develop over the next few years.

 

I am happy to wait and see with these two lads - and to wish them every success in the meantime.

 

But I decided to drop in to this thread to thank you publicly for the bit in bold .... I was a member of another forum but I lurked this one for years because of that thread - before eventually joining this forum when the hatred against LH in the other place became unbearable. Also, that thread was a major impetus to me paying attention to LH pre-F1 as, to be honest, I dont usually pay that much attention to the feeder series but by 2006 I was fully on board with the future GOAT.  

[maverick69]

I am happy to wait and see with these two lads - and to wish them every success in the meantime.

 

But I decided to drop in to this thread to thank you publicly for the bit in bold .... I was a member of another forum but I lurked this one for years because of that thread - before eventually joining this forum when the hatred against LH in the other place became unbearable. Also, that thread was a major impetus to me paying attention to LH pre-F1 as, to be honest, I dont usually pay that much attention to the feeder series but by 2006 I was fully on board with the future GOAT.  

Oh The Darkside..... Some of the comments back then would have gotten most locked up!

[BRG]

If you go back down the years post JYS you will notice, with exception, that British drivers have too often not made the top teams. There were/are a number of serious might have beens, some very good indeed but their F1 careers were wasted on 2nd or 3rd rate cars and not enough backing.

This.  If history is anything to go by, I expect Russell will be a reserve driver but never actually race in F1 and will then clear off to GTs or something.  Norris will be kept on a string by Mclaren before being dropped in favour of a bloke from Kazakhstan with a sack of cash.

[DS27]

Lando Is doing the next F2 race I believe.

[Myrvold]

However...my personal favourite of the young ones is Joel Eriksson, who was rfighting for the championchip in the tiny tiny tiny Motopark team.

 

He won't get in to F1.

[Ivanhoe]

He won't get in to F1.

Please elaborate. No backers?

Edited by Ivanhoe, 15 November 2017 - 20:10.

[messy]

At the moment I'd say Norris is the one who looks the real real deal. He's cruised up the ladder with a real ease and swagger, like he finds everything easy. It's like Button or Hamilton. Things go into fast forward because he just gobbles up every challenge presented to him. Even as far as stepping back into a McLaren F1 car and making that look like a piece of cake too despite looking far too young to take his GCSEs. He's got a lovely style too.

Russell has done well in the last twelve months but we've seen drivers who haven't quite convinced in F3 look like superheroes in GP3 before. I'm not so convinced yet. I find GP3 hard to judge. My instinct tells me that Euro F3 is the better, stronger series.

[balage06]

Please elaborate. No backers?

 

Quite the opposite, he is a BMW junior and that is why he will most likely go in DTM/GT direction

[RacingGreen]

Who can ever really predict being the right place at the right time?

 

While there are only 20 Formula One cars, and drivers are retiring later and later, there will always be talented driver who don't ever get their chance. Formula One needs a full 26 car grid again. For any promising driver the timing has to work just right because doing that second season in F2 or going to Super Formula it is very easy to go from being "the next big thing" to just another driver. Add to that there are only 3 teams have won a race since March 2013, so basically there are six cars that can win. Then consider that Red Bull have their own driver recruitment program, and Ferrari poach drivers they don't develop them, and Mercedes hired Bottas instead of their own junior Wehrlein I'm sure you can see that the chance of getting a drive straight away in a winning car are virtually zero. It's far more likely that they will end up in a bad or middle tier team for a couple of seasons and then disappear. Certainly Norris really impressed in his Hungary test and I'd love to see him in the car again. If he has a great season next year, and Stoff doesn't or Fred retires, and the stars align correctly, then 2019 could see him in resurgent McLaren able to make a big impression.

 

Whether they even get into F1 at all may just come down to backing, after all that got Palmer a works Renault drive, and it working for Ericsson and Stroll.

[milestone 11]

It seems that the McLaren and Mercedes young Brit proteges are being set up for McLaren and Force India reserve driver roles accordingly, about 13 years after I created the first Lewis Hamilton thread in this forum   .

 

 

I am happy to wait and see with these two lads - and to wish them every success in the meantime.
 
But I decided to drop in to this thread to thank you publicly for the bit in bold .... I was a member of another forum but I lurked this one for years because of that thread - before eventually joining this forum when the hatred against LH in the other place became unbearable. Also, that thread was a major impetus to me paying attention to LH pre-F1 as, to be honest, I dont usually pay that much attention to the feeder series but by 2006 I was fully on board with the future GOAT.

14 actually, all 250 pages of it http://forums.autosp...lewis hamilton

[Myrvold]

Please elaborate. No backers?

 

 

Quite the opposite, he is a BMW junior and that is why he will most likely go in DTM/GT direction

Yup, that's what I expect as well. Sadly, as we do have some pretty healthy Swedish backers, but they seem set to support Ericsson, and not Rosenqvist or Eriksson.

[RPM40]

Lando is the real deal. I actually can't think of a more impressive junior at this point, the kid has won everything and he wins it as a rookie too. 

[TheFish]

 

While there are only 20 Formula One cars, and drivers are retiring later and later, there will always be talented driver who don't ever get their chance.

 

Drivers aren't really retiring later and later. Massa is 36, Webber was 37, Prost was 38, Mansell was 42.

 

They are, however, getting into F1 at a younger age. Drivers entering as a teenager now isn't that surprising. Damon Hill joined F1 in his 30s!

[Jerem]

I think there's a British bias regarding how highly these drivers (esp. Norris) are rated.

 

IMO Norris is a great talent and has a good prospect of becoming a successful F1 driver, but I've never heard as many comments about how impressive he is as I did for the likes of Ocon and Leclerc (I'm from France).

 

Comparing to these slightly older guys, I think Norris has a potential similar to Ocon's, and probably a bit lower than Leclerc. Russell... well, too early to tell.

[McLaren]

I think there's a British bias regarding how highly these drivers (esp. Norris) are rated.

 

IMO Norris is a great talent and has a good prospect of becoming a successful F1 driver, but I've never heard as many comments about how impressive he is as I did for the likes of Ocon and Leclerc (I'm from France).

 

Comparing to these slightly older guys, I think Norris has a potential similar to Ocon's, and probably a bit lower than Leclerc. Russell... well, too early to tell.

 

In all honesty, I think it's just too difficult to tell for all of those mentioned. Some drivers may continue to develop at an older age, whilst other may struggle to adapt to the faster series and different cars etc.. But you can certainly see with guys like Leclerc & Norris that they have moved from series to series and done very well almost immediately. So those guys are probably the pick of the next batch of drivers who are yet to race in F1.

[RPM40]

I think there's a British bias regarding how highly these drivers (esp. Norris) are rated.

 

IMO Norris is a great talent and has a good prospect of becoming a successful F1 driver, but I've never heard as many comments about how impressive he is as I did for the likes of Ocon and Leclerc (I'm from France).

 

Comparing to these slightly older guys, I think Norris has a potential similar to Ocon's, and probably a bit lower than Leclerc. Russell... well, too early to tell.

 

Leclerc's career isn't as impressive as Norris'. 2nd in Formula Renault 2.0 (Norris won it). 4th in F3 Euro as a rookie (Norris won it). 

 

When you keep winning every championship as a rookie, you're going to get hype. 

 

Ocon did win a lot, yes, but his earlier junior career stalled a bit, certainly nothing as dominant as what Lando has achieved. 

[TheRacingElf]

I was lucky enough to witness both Max Verstappen and Lando Norris at the Pau GP. To me Lando has that "wow effect" when your standing at the side of the track, something I also had with Max Verstappen. I can't put my finger on what it is exactly but it's something about how they almost seem to be dancing with the car. It's something you can almost only see/feel/hear when you're actually on the track when you have a direct comparison to the other drivers raging past. Picking up the throttle even before the car has fully settled down again and where you think: "that's too early, mate" but then it turns out it isn't and they come out of the corner perfectly fine where others, who picked up the throttle way later where struggling to keep it out of the wall on the exit.

 

So after watching Lando at Pau this year and knowing I had had the same experience with Max Verstappen and knowing how he went on to take the F1 world by storm, I'm almost certain Lando will do the same.

 

George Russel I'm not that sure of. I never really saw him as someone who could make it into F1, he did well but noting outstanding. He has a great season in GP3 this year but I'm still not convinced he's in that special category. I see him as someone like Pascal Wehrlein, a fine racing driver who is good enough for F1 but just missing that last special bit.

 

I think it's sometimes really difficult to properly rate young drivers, especially with the PR-departments of the teams hyping their own young drivers up and the media hyping up their compatriots. The best way for me still is to just buy some tickets, go to the track and witness it yourself. I still hold out hope that one day I can witness such talent from really close by by having the privilege of working together with one of those special drivers in some kind of junior category.

[RPM40]

 

I think it's sometimes really difficult to properly rate young drivers, especially with the PR-departments of the teams hyping their own young drivers up and the media hyping up their compatriots. The best way for me still is to just buy some tickets, go to the track and witness it yourself. I still hold out hope that one day I can witness such talent from really close by by having the privilege of working together with one of those special drivers in some kind of junior category.

 

It also comes to how they adapt to the higher powered cars. Someone can be great, legitimately in Formula 3, but when given something with 5x the amount of power just not extract those last few tenths. F3 cars and the like typically won't have to manage the throttle with the car wiggling mid corner, they're fairly quick to full throttle. F1 cars always have some amount of throttle variance, you're up to 80%, back down to 65% etc just feeling the rear stick.

 

I really do think that with that level of throttle and the fact the rear in an F1 car is never really settled in acceleration zones, that is just so very different from a junior car that can basically stamp the throttle and not spin the rears.

[gillesfan76]

Lando Norris is the real deal. Has amazing potential, though that is no guarantee of anything.

 

Marketability? I think he's very marketable, he's very young but I think will have marketable looks as he gets older and he's got a standout name "Lando".

 

Imagine him as Alonso's team mate. Nando and Lando.

[Nicktendo86]

Lando Norris is the real deal. Has amazing potential, though that is no guarantee of anything.

 

Marketability? I think he's very marketable, he's very young but I think will have marketable looks as he gets older and he's got a standout name "Lando".

 

Imagine him as Alonso's team mate. Nando and Lando.

 

Don't have to wait too long for that, aren't they doing Daytona together?

[NixxxoN]

Lando Norris is the real deal. Has amazing potential, though that is no guarantee of anything.

 

Marketability? I think he's very marketable, he's very young but I think will have marketable looks as he gets older and he's got a standout name "Lando".

 

Imagine him as Alonso's team mate. Nando and Lando.

 

The same was said about Vandoorne though, being the real deal and all that. Now he looks average vs Alonso

[maverick69]

George Russell seems to have flown under the radar somewhat. Seems less "box office" than Norris. However, Sir Patrick Head was/is very impressed by what he saw by him in "the Jordan" at Interlagos.

 

Merc are seemingly pushing him well along too. Perhaps the Brits have two megastars for when Lewis has filled his boots?

 

I know one thing with George....... He defo looks like he comes from King's Lynn........ Gimme a high six!

[Juan Kerr]

I am deeply impressed by these youngsters, especially by Norris this year in F3. I think he will have a bright future. Regarding Russell I am not so sure. 

 

However...my personal favourite of the young ones is Joel Eriksson, who was rfighting for the championchip in the tiny tiny tiny Motopark team.

Well law of averages suggest we are very unlikely to see two new British F1 greats appearing on the scene. Lando has been a notable supreme talent since he stepped out of kart.

[F1matt]

I have watched Lando Norris since his Ginetta junior days on the TOCA tour, always been impressed with him, I was also impressed with Dan Ticktum I though he had ruined his career but it must have reminded Helmut Marko of Seb Vettel who give him another chance. I haven't really watched Russell live so I wont make an opinion yet. 

[milestone 11]

...I was also impressed with Dan Ticktum I though he had ruined his career...

Indeed, in F1 though, merely a 10sec stop and go.

[sopa]

I don't think it could be a good idea to predict things, when drivers haven't even reached F1 yet.

 

But I am going to do it anyway, lol.

 

Norris could be a great talent, and along with Leclerc - another unproven in F1 terms - could be among the ones to take the fight to Verstappen in the future.

 

Russell could be good, but I doubt he is 'once-in-a-generation' kind of top talent. You can have only so many of these.

 

Verstappen is the only driver on the grid I would say with some confidence would be among main contenders in 5-10 years time provided he has the machinery. I think he has shown enough for that. Others still have some proving to do.

[noikeee]

This.  If history is anything to go by, I expect Russell will be a reserve driver but never actually race in F1 and will then clear off to GTs or something.  Norris will be kept on a string by Mclaren before being dropped in favour of a bloke from Kazakhstan with a sack of cash.

 

I'm biting my lips not to make the same counter-argument I make over and over, every single time you make this argument over and over.

 

 

 

I'm with the crowd here, I think Norris and Russell are the 2 most promising British drivers since Lewis Hamilton, and I'm also more certain about Norris than Russell, though I suspect both will make it to F1. The UK did have a couple mildly promising drivers in this time period such as Rowland, Calado, Bird, Turvey, Conway, Lynn; but Norris looks me the kind of standout none of them were and I also suspect Russell's a wee bit above (even if it's early days and GP3 can deceive).

 

I'd be amazed if Norris doesn't make it. He's at the perfect place - McLaren gives chances to kids, and there's a very high chance a spot will open up: Alonso is aging and only signed a 1-year contract to keep his options open, and Vandoorne has been a let down and could easily lose his seat. Norris also has a lot of hype and interest in him (rejected a few teams for McLaren), and even if he fails in F2 and loses the hype, he clearly is well funded, as shown by the sheer amount of series he was doing before being poached by McLaren, so I think he could buy his way in even if things go somehow very wrong and McLaren drops him. He's also still VERY young and could bide his time if he wanted to (I suspect he doesn't). He's got absolutely everything going for him.

 

As for Russell I think people are being a bit harsh on his record. His F3 record might not have been as amazing as the standards set by Ocon/Verstappen/Norris/Leclerc in recent years but any other era would've been a standout. 6th in his rookie year (only his 2nd in cars at all!) - beating Illott as team-mate, and 3rd in his 2nd year, only behind that crazy Prema team that was supposedly developing parts specifically for Stroll? That's pretty great. I also take issue with the idea that this GP3 field was poor, he did beat Jack Aitken as team-mate. 

 

For me I look at Russell's career and see 4 seasons, every single of them with pretty damn solid results. That is Formula 1 level if he keeps this up. And whilst he's not in as good a place as Norris, I think a slot for him paid for Mercedes could well open up, they seem to be losing patience with Wehrlein already, and Ocon could well be promoted to Bottas' place in 1 or 2 year's time. This means Russell is right next in line for a place in a smaller team...

 

The only thing that could play against both of them, is that the standards have been raised in F2 to a stupid level by Leclerc. It's just pretty much impossible to do that in a rookie season again, yet they'll be inevitably compared to him. Still there's no reason why both can't be F1 drivers in a couple of years time.

 

I also have to add that, whilst I still think this kind of analysis of junior series results compared to experience and age, is the best predictor we have for future performance in F1, it can be wrong and often is. I've been burned too many times in the past by predicting great things to drivers that then didn't back it up completely. So I don't wanna say "Norris will be a world champion" because we just can't know with any degree of certainty, but if I had to bet on anyone that's not on F1 yet it'd be on him (and Leclerc).

[gillesfan76]

The same was said about Vandoorne though, being the real deal and all that. Now he looks average vs Alonso

 

Really? Who said the same about Vandoorne?

 

In any case, even if some said the same about Vandoorne doesn't make Lando the same as Vandoorne.

 

Some said the same about Lewis Hamilton in 2006 and look how he compared to Alonso. Does that mean Lando would turn out the same as Lewis..or Vandoorne? No, of course not.

 

However if you do wish to compare Vandoorne, Lando, Lewis I can tell you that a simple check of their records in earlier series shows you that Lando's performance is far more comparable to Lewis than Vandoorne.

[NixxxoN]

Really? Who said the same about Vandoorne?

 

In any case, even if some said the same about Vandoorne doesn't make Lando the same as Vandoorne.

 

Some said the same about Lewis Hamilton in 2006 and look how he compared to Alonso. Does that mean Lando would turn out the same as Lewis..or Vandoorne? No, of course not.

 

However if you do wish to compare Vandoorne, Lando, Lewis I can tell you that a simple check of their records in earlier series shows you that Lando's performance is far more comparable to Lewis than Vandoorne.

 

What I'm saying is, lets wait and see...

[gillesfan76]

What I'm saying is, lets wait and see...

 

Well we can all agree with that. 

[noikeee]

Yeah I really don't think we can say Lewis = Lando > Stoffel, maybe Stoffel didn't dominate any top series on his rookie season but he was extremely impressive anyway. Personally I'd rank the 3 of them among the most impressive I've seen in the junior ranks. Together with Hulkenberg, Leclerc, Frijns... it's harder to then further split them apart into tiers, because you're then well into the territory of comparing apples and oranges, each driver is against different fields, slightly different circumstances.

 

But Lando hasn't even done a F2 race yet. For all we know he could lose a bit of steam there. Or keep cementing himself as a superstar in the making.

[McLaren]

I think they are both well placed to make a possible F1 race debut in the next few years.

 

With Norris:

 

He has age on his side, and If Alonso moves on, or Vandoorne makes way then he would be your first bet at a race seat. He also has enough time to do a year or even 2 year stint in F2, and then a year in Super Formula (pretty much the same thing that Vandoorne did) to bide time to wait for a seat at McLaren. If there is still no seat after those years, then he would have to look at another point of entry.

 

Wint Russell:

 

As long as he continues to impress in various feeder series.. as a junior Merc driver, he may get a chance if something happens at either Merc or Force India. If Bottas goes, then Ocon would be first on the list to replace Bottas.. and Merc will likely 'help' Russell get a race seat at Force India. Same thing applies if one of the Force India guys decides to move to any other team for that matter.. unless Merc decide to push Pascal forward instead that is.

Edited by McLaren, 17 November 2017 - 15:46.

[BRG]

 

I'm biting my lips not to make the same counter-argument I make over and over, every single time you make this argument over and over.

What argument?  It was a prediction, admittedly a pessimistic one, based on the fact that probably more than half of the 'next Sennas' that are hyped up never make it.  Ask Robin Frijns, or da Costa or Lopez (ooh, look, none of them are Brits either!).  There are precious few places available in F1 and so a lot of talent gets lost on the way.  Especially when there are drivers like Ericsson still in F1 despite being proven to be inadequate, and others like Celis jr or SIrotkin get FP runs for no better reason than cash.  And the fact is, which even you will struggle to counter-argue, British drivers struggle to find big buck sponsors to buy them those opportunities.

[noikeee]

Will Stevens, Jolyon Palmer, Max Chilton don't seem to have struggled with financial opportunity. So there's your British equivalents for the Sirotkins and Ericssons of this world. Even Norris seems quite relaxed with cash.

 

There's more good-ish Brit drivers falling short, because there's more British drivers overall competing at all since it's a huge hub for motorsport. But the superstars tend to make it. Like Hamilton and Button made it, and Norris will.

[BRG]

I hope that Norris makes it, but I am not optimistic.  Come and join us pessimists, the worst that happens to us is that we get the occasional nice surprise.

[F1matt]

Dan Ticktum helping to rebuild his career with a great drive at Macau. Keep this level up and Gasly and Hartley will be under pressure like it always is at Torro Rosso.

[Will]

Hmm so what was the deal with Norris and Macau? Car issue or still some work in progress with dealing with a variety of challenges?

[ensign14]

I think 2nd isn't exactly bad, especially as he had a bad start that put him behind the eight ball from the off.  Just another example of how the starting procedure is flawed - essentially the first 100 yards are more important than the next 200 miles...

[kernel]

I hope that Norris makes it, but I am not optimistic.  Come and join us pessimists, the worst that happens to us is that we get the occasional nice surprise.

 

Isn't Lando Norris' family loaded? 

[Viryfan]

Isn't Lando Norris' family loaded? 

 

yes he is 

http://www.telegraph...rt-up-crop.html

https://en.wikipedia...tio_Investments

 

According to West Tec F3 team owner , Lando Norris spent a similar amount of money as Stroll in order to win FIA F3.

 

They even ran apparently a seperate F3 test team.

Edited by Viryfan, 19 November 2017 - 14:12.