12 replies to this topic

[Felix Muelas]

Just a couple of days ago, on the Thread named "Roll Calls etc", and as a reply to Hans´ comments, I posted an image of Paul Pietsch.

Now I read in the Obituaries section of May 2001 Classic and Sports Car magazine, the following note :

The highly succesful Swiss hillclimb champion Willy Daetwyler died on January 17 aged 82. A welathy privateer, he started competing in the late ´30s with an Alfa 6C 25000 but when he acquired the fearsome supercharged 412 sports car he dominated post-WW2 Swiss events including his home Grand Prix and became the first post-war European Hillclimb Champion.
His success led to an invitation to drive the works Tipo 158 Alfetta in the ´51 German Grand Prix but due to his height he felt uncomfortable and gave the drive to Paul Pietsch.

I have to reckon that I had never heard (or remeber having heard, if there´s a difference at all) this story before. Has any of the members any further info about this invitation ?

Thanks

Felix

[alessandro silva]

It is mentioned in Venebles' book that Alfa asked Datwyler first and then Louis Chiron and that they decided for Pietsch at the last moment. It is not said explicitly that he declined but why ask somebody else then?
Daetwyler felt very unconfortable on a HWM at Erlen and did not start either.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by alessandro silva
It is mentioned in Venebles' book that Alfa asked Datwyler first and then Louis Chiron and that they decided for Pietsch at the last moment.

Well, a further reason to add to my policy of not buying books on even years, and dedicate those to read the ones bought during the previous year
(and that includes the Venables book...)

Daetwyler felt very unconfortable on a HWM at Erlen and did not start either.

So that´s the real reason behind the Paul Sheldon´s note "dns, car uncompetitive "...

Thanks Alessandro

Felix

[Hans Etzrodt]

Alfa Corse had only three nominated drivers for their four cars. Farina, Fangio and Bonetto were fixed while the fourth place for the #78 car was left open.

Pietsch drove the #80 Maserati 4CLT for Ecurie Enrico Platé, the car he practiced with on the first day, when the engine got damaged. This incident saw him without a drive for the race.

For their fourth Alfa Romeo, the Italians invited Lang first but he turned the offer down for various reasons, unknown to me. Then they wanted to give de Graffenried another chance to drive the car but finally decided to try out several drivers during practice.

This contest between Sanesi, Chiron, Daetwyler and Pietsch limited each driver to only three laps in the Alfetta and the one with the fastest practice time was to get the seat. While Sanesi knew everything about the Alfetta but not the circuit, Pietsch, due to his intimate knowledge of the "Ring", ended up getting the drive. He did 10m15.7s on his second lap, was considerably faster than the others, was flagged off because practice had ended, and therefore did just two laps. As a result, Alfa Corse offered him the seat in their fourth car.

After Fangio had crashed his Alfetta during practice, he took Pietsch's car for the race. Since Fangio's car could not be repaired in time, the German ended up with the spare car for the race, which he had not driven at all. On Sunday after the first lap, Pietsch was fifth behind Fangio, Ascari, Gonzales and Farina. But on the second tour he spun his car at the Karussell, ending up sideways on the inside incline. Before he could get going again, the entire field had gone past him.

[Felix Muelas]

Thanks, Hans.
An extremelly interesting "behind the scenes" that, by the way, and as far as the drivers "on test" is concerned, sounds very feasible too...
It looks to me that the full story has simply been ignored in Sheldon´s Vol 5, as not one of the details that you mention are recorded there...including that car number 80 is a dna...
With (scarcely complementary) information from W Court ("Alfa had discarded Sanesi and at the last minute brought in Paul Pietsch"), and obviously having missed what Alessandro says one can find in Venables, you will agree that my overall picture had, up to this moment when you posted your reply, a pale ressemblance to reality
Will we ever be able to establish facts beyond reasonable doubt ? OK, I think I know the answer, so I will not follow that line

Thanks again...

Felix

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
.....An extremelly interesting "behind the scenes" that.....

Although I attended this event in person, I was not aware of these little details at the time, of course. I found this information in Michael Riedner's Doppelsieg, 1991, a book about Paul Pietsch. I rewrote the account in my own words and it read like a good story to me, even believable, and I thought it not fair to withhold it from you, old friend.

Originally posted by Felix Muelas .....Will we ever be able to establish facts beyond reasonable doubt? .....

I try damned hard. All the time.
Therefore I will present another version of this episode from the book Der Nürburgring, 1965, by Richard von Frankenberg. He wrote,

"Two weeks before the German Grand Prix, Ferrari was able to land its first victory over Alfa: Gonzales had won the Grand Prix of England ahead of Fangio and Villoresi. Fangio was still leading the World Championship on Alfa Romeo ahead of his teammate Farina, but the Ferrari drivers Villoresi, Gonzales and Ascari had now come threateningly close in points to Alfa's top drivers.

"This was also one reason, why Alfa did not come with three, but with four cars to the Nürburgring, while until now they had mostly entered three Alfas.

"Fangio drove Alfa number one. Farina drove Alfa number two. Bonetto drove Alfa number three. Whoever was to drive Alfa number four, the factory had not yet announced. 'We will decide ourselves at the Nürburgring, which driver we will take for the fourth car,' it was explained.

"Regarding the fourth car from Alfa: they had the idea to let several drivers do practice laps with this car at the Nürburgring, and the driver who would obtain the best time would be given the car. For example, Prince Bira was a possibility, he had entered on a 4.5-liter OSCA, or possibly Louis Chiron, who was present with a 4.5-liter Talbot, a car with which he had won the 1949 Grand Prix de France … Possibly one of the Gordini-pilots, Trintignant or Manzon, driving underpowered cars?

"As the last candidate, Chiron had completed his drive, reaching a reasonable but just not a fast time. With this fourth car nobody had reached even 10m30s, while Fangio and Farina drove practice laps below 10 minutes. Well, there was also this guy Pietsch. The AvD (race promoter) had recommended him: 'A German driver that would be a nice gesture.' 'Certainly,' said the Alfa-people, 'but a gesture is one thing and fast times is the other…Right, in the year 1939 this Pietsch had been pretty quick, but now?'

"So, he came at the very end to drive this red Alfetta, when there was only sufficient time to do two laps; because the training ended then, irrevocably.

"Pietsch started out of the pits, came back the return straight, pulled through the little entrance back onto the finishing straight, accelerated full as he went past the timekeeper's house, raised his hand as was customary when one wanted to say: please take the time, I am driving now.

"Also in the Alfa pits they took the time, very accurately. When Pietsch returned from the second lap, which he had ever done with the Alfa, when he came back to start and finish to receive the checkered flag as a sign: 'Stop, the training is now finished,' as he came thundering down the finishing straight and the car deviated ever so slightly off course, both watches, which ran at Alfa, agreeably showed 10m13.1s.

"As of this moment there was not the slightest doubt, of who was going to drive the fourth Alfa....."

Adriano Cimarosti wrote in GRAND PRIX SUISSE about the 1951 Erlen race that after practice, Willy Peter Daetwyler preferred not to start in the HWM because it was insufficiently prepared and he had trouble fitting in the HWM cockpit. Already two weeks before, when Daetwyler was trying to drive the Alfa Romeo Tipo 158 of the Formula 1 at the Nürburgring, he had been confronted with the same space problem.

Here is another snippet from the 1951 German Grand Prix, which I found somewhat amusing.
"Its about Fangio. This was his very first start at the Nürburgring. He came early, already one and a half days before the first official training. Together with an interpreter he walked into the Sport Hotel and said, he would like to have a room here. Consequently it was politely explained to him that the Alfa Romeo factory had reserved rooms for all drivers of their team at the Eifeler Hof in Adenau, and he should please drive down to Adenau.

"Whereupon Fangio laconically said: 'I drive for Alfa, I don’t sleep for Alfa. I stay here.' "

[alessandro silva]

Felix, I had mentioned the Venables story already in an old 8w game about Pietsch...
The behaviour of the Alfa team and their choices in that occasion I find were rather strange; probably they were very nervous after Silverstone. Now Hans is shedding some light on the episode but we'll never know for sure. In any case Alfa had tested drivers right before the race in at least another occasion: Monza 1950, where the choice was between Taruffi, Sanesi and Bonetto for two cars. Back to Nurburgring, I do not think that Lang was tested, if asked he just declined, and Pietsch was very impressive being in two laps much faster than third man Bonetto, who once more proved to be too slow on tracks different from Italian town circuits or road races. Pietsch lost the last big chance of his career in the way that we all know. Sanesi was always tested because he was the factory man but he was not a particularly fast driver either. Chiron was already on the downhill path. Compelling commercial needs for Alfa on the Swiss market usually led to field de Graffenried. So why not Daetwyler also - he was racing a big old Alfa with huge success in hill-climbs - but I wonder if he really took the wheel in that test, with the car moving I mean (Willy was really big!). Looking today at the episode, Daetwyler as a first choice seems nonetheless pretty weird.
I am glad that I remembered correctly the Erlen episode that goes beyond the rather elusive Sheldon's explanation.
On the positive side, Daetwyler was an excellent hill-climber. He brought to success the most unlikely cars for a hill-climb: a huge powerful Alfa 412 and later a Ferrari 750 Monza, a nasty ill-handling machine. His victory in the 1957 European Mountain Championship was impressive. As a privateer on his Maserati 200S 4cyl, he won against the might of the Porsche (with von Trips, von Frankemberg, Maglioli, Barth, Munaron) and the Borgward (with Herrmann, Cabianca and Juttner) works teams and the odd Maseratis driven by strong Italian specialists.

[ry6]

There is a nice story on Paul Pietsch in the latest issue of Historic Motor Racing with some good photos.

[Felix Muelas]

Rob,

I´m anxiously waiting for my copy, that I though was going to appear somewhere in April, but that I understand should be on its way...
;-)

Felix

[Roman]

Does anybody have got the results from european hillclimbs with W-P. Daetwyler?

[alessandro silva]

European Hill-Climb Championship 1957
-06.30, Mont-Ventoux
overall
1. Daetwyler Maserati 2L 12' 39" 5 , 102.383 kmh
2. Maglioli Porsche 1.5L 12'51"
3. Barth idem 12'53"6
4. Buffa Maserati 2L 13'27"7
5. Cabianca OSCA 1.5 L 13'28"8
6. Luglio Ferrari 250GT 13'34"8


-07.28, Freiburg-Schauinsland
overall
1.Barth Porsche 1.5 RS #62 16'57"8, 84.89 kmh
2. Maglioli idem #61 17'03"1
3. Herrmann Borgward 1.5 RS #60 17.24"1
4. Greger Porsche Carrera GT #28 18'04"2
5. dr Bender Porsche Carrera GT #38 18'12"7
6.Munaron Porsche 1.5L RS #63 18'20"5

-08.15, Gaisberg (2 heats, aggregate time)
overall
1.Daetwyler Maserati 2L #30 9'49"6 105.300 kmh
2. Herrmann Borgward RS 1.5L #18 9'59"5
3. von Frankemberg Porsche RS 1.6 #22 10'02"1
4. Cabianca Borgward RS 1.5L #19 10'06"
5. von Hanstein Porsche RS 1.6 #20 10'18"5
6. Ruffo Maserati 2L # 34 10'20"9

-08.25, Lenzerheide (best of 2 heats)
overall
1. von Trips Porsche RS 1.6 3'28"6 106.136 kmh
2. von Frankemberg idem 3'31"2
3. Daetwyler Maserati 2L 3'31"4
4. Herrmann Borgward RS 1.5 3.31"6
5. Monteverdi Ferrari 750 3L 3'34"0
6. von Neumann Ferrari (750?) 3'44"0

-09.01, Aosta Gran San Bernardo
overall
1. Daetwyler Maserati 2L 22'10"9 91.697 kmh
2. von Trips Porsche RS 22'19"6
3. Herrmann Borgward 22'24"1
4. von Frankemberg Porsche RSK 22'44"1
5. Cabianca Borgward 22'42"
6. Munaron Porsche RS 23'00"5

-09. 29, Mount Parnassus (Greece) (2 heats, aggregate time)
overall
1. von Trips Porsche RS 8'22"3
2. Herrmann Borgward RS 8'25"2
3. Barth Porsche RS 8'26"5
4. von Frankemberg Porsche RSK 8'32"8
5. Juttner Borgward RS 8'58"3
6. von Hanstein Porsche Carrera GT 9'00"9

[Roman]

Alessandro, it is fantastic! Do you have also results from the other years? Please look my web site to compare your info with mine. www.isr-racing.com

[alessandro silva]

Roman.
The data that I have are from L'Année Automobile (Automobile Year).
If you do not have access to them, I'll try to post them.