529 replies to this topic

[V8 Fireworks]

A rider was tragically killed at the 2017 Macau Grand Prix, while three riders were killed at the 2016 Isle of Mann TT and four more at the 2017 Isle of Mann TT.     

 

Yet barely a murmur appears on the Racing Comments forum.     [Dare I say it:  it is almost as if motorcycle road racers are considered expendable.        ]

 

Would be it sensible to ban motorcycle road racing on safety grounds?

 

Those who suggest motorcycle road racing should continue make arguments like this:

 

 

 

they choose to participate themselves, they are as closely monitored and aided as is possible and they all know the risks, but they consider it the Holy Grail of motorcycling and the purest form of racing. Who are we to deny them that choice; and where do we stop? 
http://forums.golf-m...G5MRICYW3QXZ.99

 

 It is a tragic conundrum.

 

 

"If Roger Federer misses a shot, he loses a point," Richard Quayle, a former TT winner, told The New York Times. "If I miss an apex, I lose my life."

http://www.thedrive....why-people-come

 

 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 22 November 2017 - 11:39.

[superden]

It's not that they are expendable, at all. Rather, it's that they choose to take that risk, whilst fully aware of the dangers involved. To be honest, I'm glad at least one place still exists in the motorsport world where a driver/rider is allowed to make such a decision for themselves. In most other cases in the world in general, that personal choice has been snuffed out by some interfering, frequently external, highly vocal minority.

Tell a TT rider they can't compete anymore because a litigious minority has had the event stopped on the grounds of safety and see what sort of reaction you get.

Edited by superden, 22 November 2017 - 11:43.

[messy]

The thing is, you can make car racing more and more safe but with a motorcycle you can only do anything up to a point. The rider is sitting on it, if you crash the rider will be completely exposed, and will fall off. It won't be banned, and rightly. If you go to the IOM it's utterly part of the culture, it's the thing that brings visitors in, put them on the map, the thing that generations of young kids grow up aspiring to be rather than premier league footballers (see Conor Cummins), road racing is everything. And I bloody love that. It inspires passion in a way F1 just doesn't really connect with people in this country anymore. It's a way of life. I'd imagine it's the same in parts of Ireland too. 

 

I hate that people die doing it, but as a throwback to a purer, more risky era of motor racing (arguably the only one still left), it's fantastic. 

[sopa]

The thing is, you can make car racing more and more safe but with a motorcycle you can only do anything up to a point. 

 

I am actually surprised we haven't had more fatalities in Grand Prix motorcycling, even though the circuits are far more safer than anything TT can offer.

 

The amount of injuries has always been high though.

[Pete_f1]

No

[kissTheApex]

Can’t decide if you are serious, or just pulling our collective legs.

[JHSingo]

Ha, hell no.

 

Has this place suddenly turned into the Daily Mail?

[chunder27]

You will get a lot of angry people with this poll!!

 

But I am on the fence.

 

Mainly because I have grown up watching bike racing, and getting to know people who do it and then seeing them lost when they sometimes try and further their career in road racing. Or are taken due to bike failures.

 

It is not a rational explanation or a rational reason, it is based on being sick of seeing people I have watched and supported throwing their lives away at the TT or NW200.

 

On the flip side, it is their choice, they know the risks and are prepared to take them. In fairness Macau is remarkably safe for bikes!

 

My view flips between; should they be allowed to take them, or should we just allow this sort cull every year in the name of free will and sport.

 

We have a new event in Wales next year, the first one on the mainland for decades. So let's hope it goes without a hitch

[Paul Parker]

Tragic yes for those involved but just consider the consequences if we allow everything and anything dangerous to be watered down and/or banned.

 

This kind of thing is invariably mission creep and the more we accept the more this will go on until there will be little left except the rules and regulations, which are long since more important than the racing, just consider latter day F1 for instance. As it is one of the inevitable results is the use of racing cars of all stripes as dodgem cars.

 

Basically it has been heading down the proverbial road to more and more contrived artifice for too long, motorcycle racing, hillclimbs and rally are still relatively natural and no I don't want a return to the likes of 1955 Le Mans, 1961 Italian GP etc., but the current situation and its constant meddling and regulatory diktats are, in my opinion, unacceptable and too often unnecessary.

[Kalmake]

GP side grew popular because they were able to improve safety by switching to safer tracks. Mainstream audience can't stomach the amount of deaths in races like IOM. If they lost 5 MotoGP riders in a year it would be a crisis for the business.

[Tsarwash]

No, it's their choice. One of the reasons that I don't watch or follow any form of motorcycle racing is the high fatality rate, but I would never dream of stopping others taking an informed risk. 

It can be difficult for residents however if a rider dies in or next to their property. 

[sopa]

The discussion reminds me of what a discussion about Formula One safety could look like in the 60's. "A lot of deaths, but you know, it is what it is."

 

However, F1 and the rest of motorsport found a way to improve safety.

 

Obviously it is hard to improve the safety of bikes, soo... could they erect more barriers at IOM TT or something like that?

 

However, in local racing there will always be circuits in motorsports, which remain unsafe. Only modern grade A big and wide circuits, which host all kind of world championship events, can make things reallly safe. But national circuits don't have the budgets to improve everything to such a high standard.

Edited by sopa, 22 November 2017 - 13:08.

[amedeofelix]

No, it's their choice. One of the reasons that I don't watch or follow any form of motorcycle racing is the high fatality rate, but I would never dream of stopping others taking an informed risk. 

It can be difficult for residents however if a rider dies in or next to their property. 

 

Any form??? There is an extremely low fatality rate in MotoGP.

 

I'd not ban it, but would make it a stark choice for organisers: find the cash for better crash protection or give it up.  Make it an economic choice not a matter of banning it.

[amedeofelix]

The discussion reminds me of what a discussion about Formula One safety could look like in the 60's. "A lot of deaths, but you know, it is what it is."

 

However, F1 and the rest of motorsport found a way to improve safety.

 

Obviously it is hard to improve the safety of bikes, soo... could they erect more barriers at IOM TT or something like that?

 

However, in local racing there will always be circuits in motorsports, which remain unsafe. Only modern grade A big and wide circuits, which host all kind of world championship events, can make things reallly safe. But national circuits don't have the budgets to improve everything to such a high standard.

 

Indeed.  Air barriers and TECPRO BARRIERS (for example) used liberally (not just in a few strategic places but all over) would cost a fortune, but that's tough I think.  Either cough up the money needed to remove the suicidal element of places like Isle of Man or stop.  Taking risk is one thing, but some of these races go beyond that.  WHen was teh last time nobody died at the  TT? Ever happen?

Edited by amedeofelix, 22 November 2017 - 13:12.

[Tsarwash]

Any form??? There is an extremely low fatality rate in MotoGP.

 

I'd not ban it, but would make it a stark choice for organisers: find the cash for better crash protection or give it up.  Make it an economic choice not a matter of banning it.

It's not the only reason. The TT is the first race that I would watch, if I was that way inclined, but people literally die every year. 

[August]

GP side grew popular because they were able to improve safety by switching to safer tracks. Mainstream audience can't stomach the amount of deaths in races like IOM. If they lost 5 MotoGP riders in a year it would be a crisis for the business.

 

That's very much the reason why mainstream motorsports are being sterilized, even at the expense of the challenge. Fatalities will drive away the mainstream audience.

 

On the other hand, road racing is a niche sport. The riders and the fans know the risks of the sport. Why ban something that people do voluntarily? Of course, you must not neglect safety, but there's only so much you can do for safety at a track like IoM.

[SenorSjon]

You could also prohibit parachute jumping for the same reason. People also need thrills in life and safety is not foremost on everyones mind.

[amedeofelix]

You could also prohibit parachute jumping for the same reason. People also need thrills in life and safety is not foremost on everyones mind.

 

No.  Organised mass events are rather different to niche stuff like skydiving.

[HP]

No.

 

Leave it to the riders. Racing legends like Agostini decided to never race on Isle of Man after Parlotti had a fatal crash on his 125cc bike. Read, Sheene and Gould followed.

[Ickx]

I don't like to vote but IOM in it's current form is too much for me. Some drastic changes to improve safety has to be done before I would follow it again. 

 

You could also prohibit parachute jumping for the same reason. People also need thrills in life and safety is not foremost on everyones mind.

 

Parachite jumping is not that dangerous.

[johnmhinds]

The poll is a bit silly, of course it shouldn't be banned.

 

Should the organisers look into making it safer though? Sure.

 

You have a moral (and legal) obligation to spend some of your profits on making your race as safe as possible.

Edited by johnmhinds, 22 November 2017 - 14:46.

[kevinracefan]

Can’t decide if you are serious, or just pulling our collective legs.

a vigorous anti halo poster.. trying to compare apples to potatoes...

[chunder27]

That was also because at the time it was part of the world championship!

 

Bike racing of all forms is obviously dangerous, be it on or off road.

 

But to ban it sends a real tricky message. To fans and riders.

 

For me it is a little similar to the recent banning of fans from certain rallies, part of the thrill is being that close, seeing the talent up close. WHy do you think fans at rallies go to jumps, tight bends, becasie theya re more spectacular, you might see the odd incident and you can see a driver pushing to the limit easier.

 

One accident at the TT two years ago as at Bray Hill and a bike went into the crowd, exactly the same thing as happened in rallying a few years back.

Was there a clamour to ban fans from the TT?  No, why?  because it makes the local economy a fortune and was not an easy target, rallying does not so fans were picked on as an easy target.

[Frank Tuesday]

I don't think it should be banned. The riders and fans know the reality of the situation.  It is up to each person to choose what he or she finds acceptable as a participant or spectator.  I choose not to watch IOM because it exceeds the level of risk I'm comfortable with for my entertainment.  I realize that death is a risk in every motorsport. So the level of fatality risk I find acceptable as part of my entertainment is somewhere between MotoGP and Isle of Man. 

 

How do you compare fatalities across series and schedules as diverse as F1, MotoGP and IOM? You could just say 30 years, and get 9 for MotoGP, 3 for F1 and 69 for IOM.  But F1 is a single class that races ~20/year.  MotoGP is 3 classes that race ~18/year, and IOM is multiple classes that only race once or twice a year.  What if we pick an arbitrary number of races, say 270?  That is ~5 seasons of MotoGP, ~14 seasons of F1 and ~30 years of IOM.   In that number of races, F1 has had 1 fatality, MotoGP has had 1 fatality, and IOM has had 69 fatalities.  

 

How many deaths are you willing to accept in your entertainment?       

Edited by Frank Tuesday, 22 November 2017 - 14:57.

[turk157]

Ban the Isle Of Mann-NEVER

Edited by turk157, 22 November 2017 - 14:59.

[Frank Tuesday]

I am actually surprised we haven't had more fatalities in Grand Prix motorcycling, even though the circuits are far more safer than anything TT can offer.

 

The amount of injuries has always been high though.

It's just as safe as F1. 

[milestone 11]

 

A rider was tragically killed at the 2017 Macau Grand Prix, while three riders were killed at the 2016 Isle of Mann TT and four more at the 2017 Isle of Mann TT.     

 

Yet barely a murmur appears on the Racing Comments forum.     [Dare I say it:  it is almost as if motorcycle road racers are considered expendable.        ]

 

Would be it sensible to ban motorcycle road racing on safety grounds?

 

Those who suggest motorcycle road racing should continue make arguments like this:

 

 

 It is a tragic conundrum.

 

 

"If Roger Federer misses a shot, he loses a point," Richard Quayle, a former TT winner, told The New York Times. "If I miss an apex, I lose my life."

http://www.thedrive....why-people-come

 

 

 

I shan't add more than this post to this thread and also, make sure that my NO vote is registered. My views on road racing are well known in here to those that have any interest.

 

You clearly miss the annual TT, Classic TT and NW200 threads, they are here. I dread to think what you'd make of Horice and many other circuits that exist elsewhere purely for motorcycle racing. Ireland, there's a place. Check out videos from the likes of Tandragee, Armoy, Kells and Skerries. See the passion. Read about the Irish road racing scene. See the passion. Check out some of the things said by the late Dr John Hinds.  See the passion. Check out what the numerous overses riders, people like Bruce Anstey and Cameron Donald, two antipodeans who make the TT trip annually, have to say. See the passion. See what two of the greatest exponents, John McGuinness and Ian Hutchinson, who are both suffering daily trying to add 4" (100mm) to hugely damaged legs, have to say about road racing. See the passion.

 

The sanitised bubble which is F1 is not what motor racing is about.

[Frank Tuesday]

Indeed.  Air barriers and TECPRO BARRIERS (for example) used liberally (not just in a few strategic places but all over) would cost a fortune, but that's tough I think.  Either cough up the money needed to remove the suicidal element of places like Isle of Man or stop.  Taking risk is one thing, but some of these races go beyond that.  WHen was teh last time nobody died at the  TT? Ever happen?

In the past 40 years, there have been 7 years with no IOM deaths.

2012

2008

(2001 canceled due to foot and mouth disease breakout)

1990

1987

1983

1982

1977

Edited by Frank Tuesday, 22 November 2017 - 15:30.

[Collombin]

2001

Lol.

[sopa]

 

For me it is a little similar to the recent banning of fans from certain rallies, part of the thrill is being that close, seeing the talent up close. 

 

Fans should not be banned from attending rallies (or motorsport events), however I have to say plenty of people are pretty stupid to spectate in places, where a rally car is likely to crash out, i.e on the outside of a corner.

[Kershy]

Unsure because it looks spectacular and there's no doubt the riders participating in IOM know what there in for and its what they love to do.

 

However they all have family and road races will never be safer than grand prix racing.

 

But I'm not a motorcycle guy so maybe I wouldn't understand.

[milestone 11]

No.

 

Leave it to the riders. Racing legends like Agostini decided to never race on Isle of Man after Parlotti had a fatal crash on his 125cc bike. Read, Sheene and Gould followed.

 

Ok, I lied about more posts. I've spoken to both Giacomo Agostini and Phil Read. They are both still passionate about the place. Often to be seen ther doing so called demonstration laps which are anything but.

Check out what Rossi, Christian Horner and best of all Mark Webber have to say about TT. Mark's first words when the first bikes passed him for the very first time whilst he was standing at  the roadside on Bray Hill, were a screaming "Fu**ing hell, **** me.

[milestone 11]

Lol.

 Lol too, a very important reason for that.

[Frank Tuesday]

 Lol too, a very important reason for that.

Oops.  I was just looking at the fatality list, and there were none for 2001. 

[Pimpwerx]

Heck no! I currently own 2 bikes here in Thailand, and I've had a third in Miami. I didn't buy any of them because I thought it was even remotely safe. Motorcycles are bleeping dangerous. I'm reminded of that every time I hop on and go lane-cutting in Bangkok traffic (it's actually THE way to get around here). I don't think a single one of those deceased riders in the OP ever thought for a moment that they weren't risking their lives in pursuit of speed. On the contrary, I think it's what drove them. Amateur street racers do it every day (while endangering the lives of others, unfortunately), and not because of any great reward, outside of pride. Ban it? Jesus, the nanny state would have gone too far is that was the case. You know, it sounds sad, but the old saying of, "to make an omelette, you gotta break some eggs" actually fits well in many of life's pursuits. Sometimes you attain what you want most, you have to risk it all. For some people, it's bombing down the avenue with no helmet on. To some racers, it's toeing the limit of adhesion around the Macau/Mann circuits. One of them is sanctioned. I'll be damned if we should be thinking about banning it.

 

EDIT: If I can add more context to my post, I think if you read the IOM thread each year, you see that the diehard fans of that event have a far more intimate relationship/understanding of the riders who enter the event than fans of F1. The riders are people who can approach, converse with and sometimes touch. They mourn every death, and send well wishes to the injured. However, I feel it adds even more to the triumphs of the victors, because they have, for another year, overcome the challenges of the circuit, and stared death in its eyes to emerge victorious. The fastest man around a circuit that can end your life in a moment's notice. It honestly makes the victory that much sweeter, because we're all watching and thinking in the back of our minds, "No bleeping way I'd do that," when we see a rider keep the throttle pegged through speed wobble on a sketchy part of track. Hell, I get a legit thrill watching those gopro videos of guys bombing through traffic at 230kph+ on liter bikes. It's dangerous, reckless and stupid, but ffs, risking it all in the pursuit of speed is one of the greatest thrills in life. Lord knows I've done stupid stuff to get a speed rush. I'm not endorsing it, but I have no doubt that it's this same instinctive drive that fuels these racers to participate in these events. And I have nothing but the utmost respect for them.

Edited by Pimpwerx, 22 November 2017 - 15:48.

[Grayson]

 

A rider was tragically killed at the 2017 Macau Grand Prix, while three riders were killed at the 2016 Isle of Mann TT and four more at the 2017 Isle of Mann TT.     

 

Yet barely a murmur appears on the Racing Comments forum.     [Dare I say it:  it is almost as if motorcycle road racers are considered expendable.        ]

 

I don't think that the lack of comment on on this forum is because people think of them as expendable. I think there are two main reasons you don't see much mention of it here:

 

1 - A lot of people on this forum are primarily fans of four wheeled motorsport and F1 in particular. They'd be up in arms if F1 was as dangerous as road racing, but they're respectful of a sport which they don't know much about and which isn't "theirs" so they don't jump feet first into discussions that the fans and participants of motorcycle racing have been having for years.

 

2 - People comment more on things that are unusual (and therefore shocking). If a plane crashes onto a motorway and two passengers die, that's going to be all over the news and people will talk about it. It's sad, but if two cars crash on that same motorway and twice as many people die, that will pass without much comment among those unrelated to the unlucky passengers. This isn't because motorists are expendable, it's because there isn't much to say that hasn't been said on every previous occasion.

[F1 Mike]

This is the most ridiculous thread I've seen for a while.
Why not ask the riders, team participants, and attending fans if they think it should be banned? See what reaction you get....

[Burtros]

Im not for telling people what they can and cant do with their lives at the best of the time. Respect for others is important, but if someone wants to enter a road race and risk their life, Im fundamentally opposed to stopping them. Its their choice.

 

TT is very high on my list of things to do one day. Very very high. 

[Clatter]

Im not for telling people what they can and cant do with their lives at the best of the time. Respect for others is important, but if someone wants to enter a road race and risk their life, Im fundamentally opposed to stopping them. Its their choice.

TT is very high on my list of things to do one day. Very very high.

I assume you mean as a spectator rather than participant.

[chunder27]

I don't think it is a ridiculous thread.

 

This is a debate had by many motorcycle racing fans over many years.

 

And is a very valid argument. 

 

The basics being should anyone be allowed to put themselves at such immense risk for their own wellbeing and a bit of prize money?

 

I can't think of many more perilous sports in one such place.

 

I went through a period in the early 00's when we lost Joey and DJ, two of the most revered of all TT riders, plus a hell of a lot of other well known and highly talented riders.

 

The TT takes no prisoners nor does much road racing. Martin Finnegan, Richard Britton, Karl Harris, Simon Andrews, all lost in recent years, and all fairly young lads.

 

It is when you see this year in and out that you get fed up with it

[Requiem84]

The discussion reminds me of what a discussion about Formula One safety could look like in the 60's. "A lot of deaths, but you know, it is what it is."

 

However, F1 and the rest of motorsport found a way to improve safety.

 

Isn't the big difference between F1 in 1960 and road racing now that the F1 drivers of that time (Jackie Stewart for instance), were calling loudly for improved safety of their sport, whereas TT drivers as far as I'm aware, never called for banning the TT? 

 

F1 drivers loved what they did, but they were concerned about their own safety. TT / road racers love what they do and the lack of safety for some is a thrill. So why should we then impose our view of a 'perfect world' onto them? 

 

If all TT riders would protest this year and would demand removal of all lantern posts, side walks and houses on the course.. then I think I would be more inclined to say that safety needs to be improved.

[V8 Fireworks]

Why not ask the riders, team participants, and attending fans if they think it should be banned? See what reaction you get....

 

Bear in mind that at the Macau GP, motorcycle racing is not even the main category of racing.

[PayasYouRace]

I wouldn’t ban motorcycle racing, but I’d be fully supportive of initiatives that would make it safer. Not racing on street circuits or public roads would be a good start.

But then I’ve always been of the opinion that it takes a special kind of crazy to ride a motorcycle, let alone race one.

[Atreiu]

No.

[milestone 11]

But then I’ve always been of the opinion that it takes a special kind of crazy to ride a motorcycle, let alone race one.

You sayin' I'm crazy?

[Risil]

My personal opinion is that if riders want to do an extremely risky, yet traditional sport, and spectators aren't put in excessive danger, they should be allowed to. If it can be made safer (remove kerb stones where possible, try not to have trees or masonry anywhere near the outside of fast bends etc), then they have my support. (Yeah, they'll be thrilled I know.)

 

What makes me uneasy is the thought that some riders at the top level of road racing may be doing it because it's much more remunerative than the national-level rides they would otherwise be competing for. Would you rather win the Northwest 200 or British Superstock 1000? Which pays more? Once livelihoods and commercial pressures come into it, you do have to wonder exactly what price the riders are paying for our love of stupidly dangerous competition.

 

Is it intolerably dangerous right now? Dunno. Motorcycle racers are a pretty outspoken bunch and many of them seem accepting and/or supportive, if awe-struck, of the situation we have now.

[paulb]

No.

Perhaps an encompassing, halo-esque contraption would satisfy many here.

[djr900]

In the past 40 years, there have been 7 years with no IOM deaths.

2012

2008

(2001 canceled due to foot and mouth disease breakout)

1990

1987

1983

1982

1977

not being picky or anything, but there have been a few riders who got seriously injured at the TT , but died weeks/months later from their  injuries.

these riders are probably not included in the fatality statistics , which is technically correct , but truthfully their lives ended at the TT.

 I am not sure but these may be in some of the years where officially no riders were killed  

 

should it be banned ?   I don't think so,  but like Car Rallying I am surprised there hasn't been some kind of clampdown by the authorities

[7MGTEsup]

Whenever I watch a video of the TT on youtube a small part of me dies as I realise how little I put on the line in my own life compared to these giants of men.

[Rob]

Isn't the big difference between F1 in 1960 and road racing now that the F1 drivers of that time (Jackie Stewart for instance), were calling loudly for improved safety of their sport, whereas TT drivers as far as I'm aware, never called for banning the TT? 

 

I don't believe they wanted to ban it outright, but they certainly didn't want it to be part of the world championship. 

 

Incidentally, some of the safety improvements for F1 had dire consequences for motorcycle racing. The proliferation of armco killed a lot of riders.