1382 replies to this topic

[turk157]

Another strong showing in todays Abu Dhabi GP FP3 by Mclaren Honda
Will using Renault engines next year be the correct option??

 

 

Another strong showing in todays Abu Dhabi GP FP3 coupled with strong end of season form

-There fixed it.

Edited by turk157, 26 November 2017 - 18:06.

[turk157]

I think Honda will be better next season and will win 2019 WCC with Red Bull.

[Augurk]

All I noticed was as soon as the McLaren deal was announced Renaults started failing left and right. When do we start calling it the 6 tenths curse?

[turk157]

The Mexican GP horror show by Renault not helping either.

[Anja]

Honda seems to improve every year only to start the next season from the absolute nowhere again. I haven't seen anything that would convince me it'll be different this time around. Unless you go by the unbeatable argument of "well, surely they have to get it together sooner or later". 

[turk157]

Honda seems to improve every year only to start the next season from the absolute nowhere again. I haven't seen anything that would convince me it'll be different this time around. Unless you go by the unbeatable argument of "well, surely they have to get it together sooner or later". 

Even by the law of averages Honda are going to come up with a monster engine sooner or later.

[Anja]

Thank you for illustrating my point. But the real world doesn't work like that. 

[Fatgadget]

 Toro Rosso Honda combo a force to be reckoned with next year. They both have nothing to lose. And should they put one over McLaren!...

[turk157]

Then that will bring us back to that question did Alonso make the correct choice ,what would have been?

Mind you Alonso had a role to play in Mclaren switching to Renault.

[MastaKink]

 Toro Rosso Honda combo a force to be reckoned with next year. They both have nothing to lose. And should they put one over McLaren!...

 

They'll do well to beat Sauber-Alfa Romeo and avoid being dead last. Car-wise they might be a bit better but driver-wise and especially engine-wise they'll be far behind them.

 

Not going to be pretty I fear.

[RPM40]

Even by the law of averages Honda are going to come up with a monster engine sooner or later.

A monster engine isn’t something you can fluke into. It comes from steady year on year incremental improvements.

[turk157]

A monster engine isn’t something you can fluke into. It comes from steady year on year incremental improvements.

With a company like Honda who have unlimited resources with 3 years of experience as well

as 3 years of public shaming it will be no fluke...

[sopa]

Even by the law of averages Honda are going to come up with a monster engine sooner or later.

 

Law of averages should have meant Toyota would win at least 1 race in their 8-year-long participation in F1.

[karl100589]

 Toro Rosso Honda combo a force to be reckoned with next year. They both have nothing to lose. And should they put one over McLaren!...

 

I might put a cheeky quid on Gasly being champion next year.

[MastaKink]

On topic, no-one else has stopped improving yet either but the others are already multiple race winning engines so it doesn't matter if Honda improve, that was always going to happen. Its by how much and how quickly and they failed every target set so there wasn't much choice.

 

What became abundantly clear was that it was going to take far too long to get on par with the others and McLaren were at the point they can't keep sustaining these loses and recover. If the partnership had started this year then fine but if the talent follows the sponsors out the door because of 4/5yrs of failure then it doesn't matter if Honda finally come good and deliver a world beating pu if by then you're in a position you can't build a better car than Sauber because your technical department has been drained of talent then you're in the same boat as now anyway but it becomes Honda looking to leave you for a car that can showcase their engine and you're dead in the water as a F1 team.

 

McLaren obviously felt that tipping point was now and they had to act so here we are.

[statman]

Mclaren has the king of bad decisions, Alonso, in their team. So bet big on Honda becoming more powerful, while the Renaults keep blowing up.

[McLaren]

The worrying thing for Honda is that it seems like Toro Rosso are struggling for pace at the moment. With a Honda PU for next season, if this pace continues next season then it would be all to easy for fans to blame Honda.

Edited by McLaren, 25 November 2017 - 13:25.

[Spillage]

I still think Renault will be better next year. The Red Bull collaboration will help Honda in the long run, but they're miles off at the moment.

[LuckyStrike1]

I expect Red Bull to have a season next year at least on par with this year. 

So that's McLarens benchmark. 

[MikeV1987]

Knowing McLaren's luck the Renault will be a shitbox and the Honda will be at least on par with Ferrari.

[Dalton007]

Honda won't be changing the fundamentals of the engine for next year, so I expect an improvement, but Renault are a step ahead. I don't think Honda will be competing with the Merc/Ferrari until 2019.

[PayasYouRace]

Next year is going to be weird for someone who grew up on McLaren-Mercedes and Williams-Renault.

[Joseki]

I think I'm seeing another F1 season because after the deal Renault won 2 races and McLaren is getting eliminated in Q2 quite often.

[Danyy]

Knowing McLaren's luck the Renault will be a shitbox and the Honda will be at least on par with Ferrari.

They ditched the only thing giving them bad luck. Next year nobody will be doubting this move.

[CPR]

I think this "Honda is starting to improve" is more of a mirage.

I didn't get the exact quote but Martin Brundle on Sky said that he'd seen all sorts of interesting GPS data from Brazil and said that Renault were 5% (6%?) down on power just on the ICE and Honda were 11% down. Reminder that Renault were conservative on performance in Brazil...

[Nova]

Honda will still be the least competitive engine next year, and they will loose it's biggest asset in McLaren and get a sub par team. Even if the engine did take a huge leap, which is not in the cards, it results will still go backwards.

 

Wish it wasn't so, Honda man through and through, but I believe in relating to reality as it is.

[Danyy]

Honda will still be the least competitive engine next year, and they will loose it's biggest asset in McLaren and get a sub par team. Even if the engine did take a huge leap, which is not in the cards, it results will still go backwards.

Wish it wasn't so, Honda man through and through, but I believe in relating to reality as it is.

You’re a good guy it’s just unfortunate that you’re a Honda fan and I’m not but otherwise my contempt for Honda is nothing personal to any Honda fans who are sensible like yourself.

Edited by Danyy, 25 November 2017 - 14:19.

[Quickshifter]

A Renault powered car out qualifies a Ferrari and we get asked whether it is still a good  decision for Mclaren to switch to Renault.

[MikeV1987]

They ditched the only thing giving them bad luck. Next year nobody will be doubting this move.

 

Renault has their own fair share of problems, Honda's woes kind of deflects the attention away from them though.

[anyeis]

I predict Honda will start blaming Toro Rosso next year when they are barely beating Sauber

[Atreiu]

Even by the law of averages Honda are going to come up with a monster engine sooner or later.

 

 

That's not how it works.

[Danyy]

Renault has their own fair share of problems, Honda's woes kind of deflects the attention away from them though.

Renault win races, Honda doesn’t and still have problems. Why would you choose Honda? It makes zero sense

[MikeV1987]

Red Bull wins races with their massive aero/chassis budget. Renault still isn't that good yet.

Edited by MikeV1987, 25 November 2017 - 14:45.

[Danyy]

Red Bull wins races with their massive aero/chassis budget. Renault still isn't that good yet.

What an absolutely ridiculous comment in this heavily engine dominated era.

[V8 Fireworks]

Another strong showing in todays Abu Dhabi GP FP3 by Mclaren Honda
Will using Renault engines next year be the correct option??

 

I'm not fussed about McLaren.

 

It's all about Toro Rosso - Honda, and later Red Bull - Honda. 

 

It was terribly nice of those McLaren chaps to help out with the tough slog and poor results of the development period on the Honda power unit.   

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 25 November 2017 - 14:57.

[Laster]

Mclaren aim to be as competitive as Red Bull with that Renault, whether they'll achieve that or not you can debate throughout the winter and come up with no answers until race day in Australia comes, but Red Bull is their target. Mclaren believe they have a car that is as good with its aero as the Red Bull. Red Bull currently lap at nearly a second a lap faster than Mclaren, so Mclaren must believe that lap time is lost entirely to the engine - and a one second a lap difference seems much to big an ask for Honda to make over the winter, maybe they would get there eventually, but like Renault I suspect they'll always be inching closer but never quite getting on terms with those in front - not until new engine regs come in.

That said, it seems a lot more likely to me that while Mclaren could very well be as fast as Red Bull through the corners, they are likely not as efficient with their aero, creating more drag and so losing time down the straights. I don't believe Honda is anywhere close to being a match for Renault now or in the near future, but I doubt all of that one second gap between the two teams is entirely dependent on Honda - but again, we won't know until they arrive in Australia.

[rodlamas]

The Mexican GP horror show by Renault not helping either.

Who won that race? Thank you.

[MikeV1987]

What an absolutely ridiculous comment in this heavily engine dominated era.

Spin it any way you want. There is a reason why Mercedes and Ferrari don't want to supply them and I'll just leave it at that.

[V8 Fireworks]

You’re a good guy it’s just unfortunate that you’re a Honda fan and I’m not

 

 

I don't understand anyone would not be a Honda fan.  From S660 to NSX, from Brio to Legend, from Wave to CBR1000RR, every Honda product is designed to be as good as possible and meet the needs of its customer properly.  Yes, that means not every car or bike in the range is sporty (unlike a Ford), only models that are supposed to be sporty are sporty, models that are supposed to be comfy and practical, are comfy and practical. 

 

That's a lot more than can be said for other automakers like Chevrolet or Renault, who have occasionally knowingly slapped their badge on right rubbish at times. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 25 November 2017 - 15:02.

[Nonesuch]

What an absolutely ridiculous comment in this heavily engine dominated era.

 

It's so "heavily dominated" that the same engines are 1st and 15th, 3rd and 16th, and 4th and 20th.

 

Cars matter a lot, still.

Edited by Nonesuch, 25 November 2017 - 15:03.

[V8 Fireworks]

Red Bull currently lap at nearly a second a lap faster than Mclaren,

 

 

Source?  Most claim the Renault is 0.5s/lap slower than Mercedes and Honda is 1s/lap slower than Mercedes, which would suggest McLaren should be about 0.5s per lap slower than Red Bull.

[Danyy]

Spin it any way you want. There is a reason why Mercedes and Ferrari don't want to supply them and I'll just leave it at that.

Because they have good engines.. ENGINES

[V8 Fireworks]

With a company like Honda who have unlimited resources 

 

They don't have unlimited resources.  The promotional value of F1 -- especially with McLaren providing horrible lacklustre branding for Honda -- is just not that high.

[V8 Fireworks]

Because they have good engines.. ENGINES

 

Ahem, they are called power units.

 

Engine is just that low tech bit in the middle of the power unit where petrol and air explodes in a controlled manner.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 25 November 2017 - 15:06.

[as65p]

I'm not fussed about McLaren.

 

It's all about Toro Rosso - Honda, and later Red Bull - Honda. 

 

It was terribly nice of those McLaren chaps to help out with the tough slog and poor results of the development period on the Honda power unit.   

 

Well, in the spirit of your "thoughts". If only there was any development.

[V8 Fireworks]

Well, in the spirit of your "thoughts". If only there was any development.

 

Lots of development.  I reckon the Honda is nearly as good as Renault from Australia 2014.

 

 

It's just motor racing, all a bit of fun in the spirit of competition - Dr Honda says, "Without racing, there is no Honda".  It's about learning and the journey,  not about win at all costs, where's the fun in that!?

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 25 November 2017 - 15:07.

[as65p]

Lots of development.  I reckon the Honda is nearly as good as Renault from Australia 2014.

 

 

It's just motor racing, all a bit of fun in the spirit of competition - Dr Honda says, "Without racing, there is no Honda".  It's about learning and the journey,  not about win at all costs, where's the fun in that!?

 

Oh.. got it now (I think).

[Danyy]

Ahem, they are called power units.

Engine is just that low tech bit in the middle of the power unit where petrol and air explodes in a controlled manner.

“Power unit” doesn’t quite roll off the tongue to add to the list of cons against it, there’s a reason why drivers still say “engine problem, engine problem” on the radio

[V8 Fireworks]

Honda will still be the least competitive engine next year, and they will loose it's biggest asset in McLaren and get a sub par team.

 

Must disagree.  The results don't matter, it is best to have a low pressure environment for development, without a acerbic driver complaining about your brand at every opportunity.   

 

If they can get it sorted, they can power Red Bull who have a top class chassis, if not, oh well, that's motor racing, failure is always an option. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 25 November 2017 - 15:19.

[V8 Fireworks]

Oh.. got it now (I think).

 

Good.  It's always fun to think in the "power of dreams" way.