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Honda starting to improve as Mclaren switches to Renault


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Poll: Honda starting to improve as Mclaren switches to Renault (592 member(s) have cast votes)

Which will be the better PU for 2018 season

  1. Honda (147 votes [24.83%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 24.83%

  2. Renault (445 votes [75.17%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 75.17%

Will Mclaren regret leaving Honda

  1. Yes (224 votes [37.84%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 37.84%

  2. No (368 votes [62.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 62.16%

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#51 Brian60

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 15:22

I think in the hands of Alonso it seems to be moving up the grid on reliability, but Vandoorne is showing what the Honda still lacks. Give it another 3 years of development and I reckon it will be up their with the big boys, trouble is McLaren can't wait that long, they've already wasted 3 years - if only they'd stuck it out with mercedes pu's, they may not be fighting for 1-3 positions but anything else seemed within their grasp.



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#52 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 15:27

I think in the hands of Alonso it seems to be moving up the grid on reliability, but Vandoorne is showing what the Honda still lacks. Give it another 3 years of development and I reckon it will be up their with the big boys, trouble is McLaren can't wait that long, they've already wasted 3 years - if only they'd stuck it out with mercedes pu's, they may not be fighting for 1-3 positions but anything else seemed within their grasp.

 

Who's to say that Mercedes wouldn't have dropped McLaren if McLaren were too competitive for comfort anyway?



#53 realracer200

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 15:49

There is something some people just don't get. When you are much down on power it doesn't mean much if you improve, the only thing that counts is that your rate of improvement has to better than the that of leaders (in this case Mercedes). I don't think that after 3 seasons not even passing Q2 is a very encouraging at all.



#54 ch103

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 15:55

This race won't give us any insight into the relative competitiveness of the honda and renault engines.  last race of the season, honda is probably keeping primo info confidential from mclaren and im sure renault is running ultra conservative just to make the red bulls finish the race.



#55 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 16:47

McLaren are the team that always screws everything up, so it looks like Honda will be much improved next year. They are already not far away from the rest of the grid, but McLaren’s sponsor hunt significantly masks their progress. McLaren has spent the last year desperately trying to tell anybody that will listen that they are as good as Red Bull :lol: despite the fact that RB has better handling without running huge barn door rear wings.

#56 turk157

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 17:20

given the engine parity

1 will mclaren be able to match red bull

2 is the red bull chasis and aerodynamics better than mclaren



#57 Laster

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 17:21

Source? Most claim the Renault is 0.5s/lap slower than Mercedes and Honda is 1s/lap slower than Mercedes, which would suggest McLaren should be about 0.5s per lap slower than Red Bull.

No source, I thought I made it clear it was just a rough estimate on my part, but apparently not. I was just basing it from recent races but admittedly I haven’t run around pulling numbers and generating an average. It’s probably less. But my point is that there is a large gap between Honda and Renault which is unlikely to be bridged anytime soon, but the gap between the Mclaren and Red Bull cars is unlikely to be entirely down to the engine - just mostly.

#58 turk157

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 17:24

Here we are assuming that mclaren immediately adjusts to the renault engines (chasis and aerodynamics)

whereas redbull has 5-6 years with renault



#59 GTA

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 18:25

Next year Mclaren would be blaming Renault like RB in 2015.

 

At least they cannot claim Fastest in the corners™ .



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#60 statman

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 18:33

Imagine Alonso being confronted with Renault blow ups like the Toro Rosso boys, restriction of power (RB) or the overall shortage of parts/recycling of old parts.

 

Will he bash them in the media?



#61 MastaKink

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 18:38

Imagine Alonso being confronted with Renault blow ups like the Toro Rosso boys, restriction of power (RB) or the overall shortage of parts/recycling of old parts.

 

Will he bash them in the media?

 

I'm pretty sure he would if they also weren't competitive with their rivals when it actually worked. 



#62 paulogman

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 18:43

honda absolute slowest and mclaren chassis making up for the lack of power.

renault won't make mclaren a world beater next year, but it will remove doubt about whether or not the chassis is competitive.

reliability will be an issue because only 3 power units available next season, but honda will not be able to survive on that few



#63 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 19:18

Even by the law of averages Honda are going to come up with a monster engine sooner or later.

 

There is no such thing as a law of averages, https://en.wikipedia...Law_of_averages



#64 Calorus

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 19:26

Basic rule for F1 since 2012:

Whatever McLaren does, do the opposite.



#65 Nova

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 20:39

honda absolute slowest and mclaren chassis making up for the lack of power.

renault won't make mclaren a world beater next year, but it will remove doubt about whether or not the chassis is competitive.

reliability will be an issue because only 3 power units available next season, but honda will not be able to survive on that few

 

3 power units is not just a matter of reliability but also about development. Three chances of a new engine, every one have to be a big step forward and reliable immediately. It's a disadvantage for manufacturers coming from behind.



#66 JimmyTheFox

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 20:47

Was it ever confirmed what parts of the PU McLaren supplied?

Old article from weeks ago-
http://www.topnews.j.../f1/163144.html

Honda's Yamamoto said McLaren supplied lots of hybrid parts and will continue to use them for the time being, after which they'll do everything in house?


That Wazari poster on F1tech said the MGU isn't made by Honda and will post more info about this doomed relationship after the season finishes.

#67 ArrowsLivery

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 20:50

Was it ever confirmed what parts of the PU McLaren supplied?

Old article from weeks ago-
http://www.topnews.j.../f1/163144.html

Honda's Yamamoto said McLaren supplied lots of hybrid parts and will continue to use them for the time being, after which they'll do everything in house?


That Wazari poster on F1tech said the MGU isn't made by Honda and will post more info about this doomed relationship after the season finishes.

 

The sooner everything is moved from Woking to Milton Keynes the better. :up:



#68 drpfeffer

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 21:52

After 3 years McL had absolutely no other option than to leave Honda behind. I do not expect Renault to be worse next year than they have been this year considering the investments they are putting forward. Recent reliability issues put aside, Renault powered cars have been winning races this year, and I see no reason they shouldn't be capable of winning races again next year, at least in the back of Red Bulls.. So enginewise the potential for a great car should be in place, and considering the drivers Alonso is certainly capable of winning races too.. the rest is up to the engineers at McLaren.

 

I hope McLaren will be competitive and Honda will thrive in Italy as well!



#69 RPM40

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 22:36

Honda are no were near Renault still. Brundle was implying in qualifying the gap was still 0.5-0.7 in engine alone at most tracks. Thats to Renault, not Mercedes.


Edited by RPM40, 25 November 2017 - 22:36.


#70 chipmcdonald

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 22:49

Even by the law of averages Honda are going to come up with a monster engine sooner or later.

 

 

 Formula 1 engines are not random events, they are not good by accident.  There is zero reason why they MUST make a monster engine sooner or later. 



#71 noikeee

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Posted 25 November 2017 - 23:54

Well, given enough million years they sure would. Like Shakespeare and his famous monkeys.

#72 Kershy

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 00:49

Renault ICE is 6% away from Mercedes while Honda is 11% behind excluding the electrical systems of the PU which is far worse.

 

The PU is getting better but they won't be anywhere near till atleast 2021. McLaren knew they had to jump ship and anyone who watched F1 in the last 3 years should have known to.



#73 AustinF1

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 03:29

Another strong showing in todays Abu Dhabi GP FP3 by Mclaren Honda
Will using Renault engines next year be the correct option??

Define strong. 20+ mph down on the straights is not "strong" in my book.



#74 AustinF1

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 03:30

Renault ICE is 6% away from Mercedes while Honda is 11% behind excluding the electrical systems of the PU which is far worse.

 

The PU is getting better but they won't be anywhere near till atleast 2021. McLaren knew they had to jump ship and anyone who watched F1 in the last 3 years should have known to.

Yeah anyone who's really been paying attention knows McLaren had no choice but to switch. 



#75 damager21

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 04:11

Renault ICE is 6% away from Mercedes while Honda is 11% behind excluding the electrical systems of the PU which is far worse.

 

The PU is getting better but they won't be anywhere near till atleast 2021. McLaren knew they had to jump ship and anyone who watched F1 in the last 3 years should have known to.

 

If this is true, then in a way Renault already has a head start of 5% over Honda for next years engine. Hence, can't blame McLaren for jumping ship.

 

Again, if this gap is true, It is going to be a tough ask for Honda to catch up with Mercedes next season. They can at best hope to halve the gap where they need to improve not only on their engine output but solve MGU-H issues as well

 

Let's hope for the best as we want a closely fought field at the front. We want all engine manufacturers on equal footing which could make 2019 very interesting with fight between Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren-Renault and RedBull-Honda 



#76 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 04:19

 Formula 1 engines are not random events, they are not good by accident.  There is zero reason why they MUST make a monster engine sooner or later. 

 

Hold up, hold up, it worked for the chassis.  Honda eventually designed a monster chassis after some rubbish ones (it didn't do them any good, but they did design it).  :)



#77 mclarensmps

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 04:26

Looks like the poll starter hasn't been paying too much attention to McLaren Honda considering this thread is based on FP3 results...



#78 keshav

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 04:49

Another strong showing in todays Abu Dhabi GP FP3 by Mclaren Honda
Will using Renault engines next year be the correct option??

Back to qualifying in the usual 11th and 15th. Alonso's standard line - "We have the advantage of choosing our tires". No improvement from 2016. Infact, Alonso qualified 9th last year.

 

I think with Renault, McLaren will have a much stronger showing. Matching Ricciardo will be the target.



#79 turk157

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 05:53

Looks like the poll starter hasn't been paying too much attention to McLaren Honda considering this thread is based on FP3 results...

was hoping for a strong quali but 11 and 13

looking forward for a strong points finish.

thread was not solely based on FP3 but consistent end of season form

cheers



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#80 Sestre

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 06:05

Another strong showing in todays Abu Dhabi GP FP3 by Mclaren Honda
Will using Renault engines next year be the correct option??


You had to wait the qualification. Where was the strong showing?
I saw strong shoing from Ricciardo.
For McLaren everything was the same as the whole season - terible 1 and 2 sectors.

#81 Alonsofan007

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 06:21

You had to wait the qualification. Where was the strong showing?
I saw strong shoing from Ricciardo.
For McLaren everything was the same as the whole season - terible 1 and 2 sectors.


Right!! Day when Renault had strong showing with ricciardo out-qualifying a Ferrari and both McLaren's out of top 10, this topic looks rather silly imo.


Edited by Alonsofan007, 26 November 2017 - 11:06.


#82 MikeV1987

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 07:40

Because they have good engines.. ENGINES

 

Well you got one part right at least, they don't wan't to supply their engines to a rival team that will get the most out them. Anybody who has actually paid attention to F1 for at least the past 10 years know what RBR has to offer in F1, they are a force to be reckoned with despite not being a engine manufacturer. Their pockets are just as deep (if not, deeper) than any other manufacturer on the grid while having the benefit of not having to develop PUs, so whatever they save on developing PU's goes right back into the car. At the end of the day, that is why the likes of Mercedes or Ferrari will not supply them with engines.

 

You implying that Renault are the ones who got those wins is a ****ing joke to say the least, especially when the Renault works team can't stay ahead of Toro Rosso. Red Bull wins races because they have the people, infrastructure and budget to punch above their weight. 



#83 Quickshifter

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 08:56

Mclaren are apparently making a mistake moving from an engine which still cannot get them in to Q3 consistently to an engine which has won multiple times and got consistent podiums  in 2017 :rolleyes:

 

Also the result in Brazil was not because of Honda but in spite of Honda as we clearly saw Massa pulling away from Alonso armed with DRS and tow on the main straight.


Edited by Quickshifter, 26 November 2017 - 08:59.


#84 Danyy

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 09:08

Well you got one part right at least, they don't wan't to supply their engines to a rival team that will get the most out them. Anybody who has actually paid attention to F1 for at least the past 10 years know what RBR has to offer in F1, they are a force to be reckoned with despite not being a engine manufacturer. Their pockets are just as deep (if not, deeper) than any other manufacturer on the grid while having the benefit of not having to develop PUs, so whatever they save on developing PU's goes right back into the car. At the end of the day, that is why the likes of Mercedes or Ferrari will not supply them with engines.

You implying that Renault are the ones who got those wins is a ****ing joke to say the least, especially when the Renault works team can't stay ahead of Toro Rosso. Red Bull wins races because they have the people, infrastructure and budget to punch above their weight.


They win races because they have a good engine and chassis. McLaren has a good chassis but a bad engine. Renault has a good engine but an ok chassis. Hence why McLaren are switching. Its not rocket science.

#85 LeClerc

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 09:17

Factoring in the Teflonso curse, it is clear to me that next year McLol will be pining for good old times of Peugeot engines.....



#86 Alonsofan007

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 09:20

Or your curse, stop doing voodoo.

#87 LeClerc

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 09:24

Or your curse, stop doing voodoo.

 

I am sourcing all cursing from my wife, who hails from the Kamba tribe of Kenya. She can cook up curses that will make your buttocks fall off....



#88 Baddoer

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 09:39

Toro Rosso-Honda team might call themself "The Rejects". A badass combination of B-team who no one seems to give a damn about, second hand drivers and a hopeless engine. A marriaje made in heaven  :stoned:



#89 statman

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 09:46

I think with Renault, McLaren will have a much stronger showing. Matching Ricciardo will be the target.

 

The question is, why will they be matching the likes of Red Bull and not the likes of Toro Rosso or Renault?

 

Of course the fanboys are already planning a couple of wins...



#90 DeKnyff

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 09:52

The question is, why will they be matching the likes of Red Bull and not the likes of Toro Rosso or Renault?

 

Of course the fanboys are already planning a couple of wins...

 

Maybe because McLaren, despite an inferior engine, is already ahead of Toro Rosso and on pair with Renault?



#91 DeKnyff

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 09:55

Factoring in the Teflonso curse, it is clear to me that next year McLol will be pining for good old times of Peugeot engines.....

 

Ah, if only McLaren could have had in the last three years an engine equivalent to the Peugeot...



#92 statman

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 09:55

Maybe because McLaren, despite an inferior engine, is already ahead of Toro Rosso and on pair with Renault?

 

And what does the current situation have to do with next season?

 

It all starts from scratch, and they will be faced with some integration issues as already posted before from multiple sources.


Edited by statman, 26 November 2017 - 10:01.


#93 Alonsofan007

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 09:56

I am sourcing all cursing from my wife, who hails from the Kamba tribe of Kenya. She can cook up curses that will make your buttocks fall off....


Lol that's not possible without knowing my real name :p n stop taking those pills, sounds like you got married when you were high :roftl:

#94 Alonsofan007

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 09:57

I am sourcing all cursing from my wife, who hails from the Kamba tribe of Kenya. She can cook up curses that will make your buttocks fall off....


Lol that's not possible without knowing my real name :p n stop taking those pills, sounds like you got married when you were high :rotfl:


Edited by Alonsofan007, 26 November 2017 - 09:59.


#95 stevesingo

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 10:34

Hold up, hold up, it worked for the chassis.  Honda eventually designed a monster chassis after some rubbish ones (it didn't do them any good, but they did design it).  :)

 

Thing is through, they didn't design a good chassis.  The folks in Brackley and at SuperAguri under Ross Brawn's leadership designed a good chassis, Honda did pay for it though!

 

Interestingly, when Brawn joined Honda, they were very proud of their engine and were quite sure the performance deficit of the car in 2007/8 was down to the poor chassis and aero.  Until, Brawn told them what power the Ferrari was making two years earlier.

 

SO. the only thing Honda in Japan were responsible for was the poor engine.  I often wonder that if Honda did't pull out in 2008, would they have still won the WDC and WCC?



#96 w1Y

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 10:43

I have seen improvements from McLaren recently but the engine story is difficult at the moment as you just can't tell how much power is being held back for reliability. I think we saw this issue with how fast Lewis was last race.

#97 sopa

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 10:48

Factoring in the Teflonso curse, it is clear to me that next year McLol will be pining for good old times of Peugeot engines.....

 

Peugeot wasn't that bad. 8 podiums in 1994. Almost as much as Red Bull-Renault has achieved this year. I think McLaren would take that.



#98 RandomG

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 10:52

Brundle mentioned something about a particular part of the engine (can't remember which) was still 11% down on the Mercedes. Massa vs Alonso in Brazil still showed how off the pace the McLaren-Honda really is.



#99 Maustinsj

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 10:58

I am sourcing all cursing from my wife, who hails from the Kamba tribe of Kenya. She can cook up curses that will make your buttocks fall off....


Ah, now my unfortunate experience this morning makes sense!

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#100 MattK9

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 11:13

SO. the only thing Honda in Japan were responsible for was the poor engine.  I often wonder that if Honda did't pull out in 2008, would they have still won the WDC and WCC?

 

I have heard it said a couple a times that Ross thought that without the Merc engine they wouldnt have won the WDC. Honda engines were not as reliable as the Merc. Although that was probably because he was employed by Merc when he said that lol.

 

The car advantage the Brawn car had in the first half of the season was so huge i dont think it really matter what engine was in the back.