Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 11 votes

Honda starting to improve as Mclaren switches to Renault


  • Please log in to reply
1198 replies to this topic

Poll: Honda starting to improve as Mclaren switches to Renault (576 member(s) have cast votes)

Which will be the better PU for 2018 season

  1. Honda (132 votes [22.92%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 22.92%

  2. Renault (444 votes [77.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 77.08%

Will Mclaren regret leaving Honda

  1. Yes (211 votes [36.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 36.63%

  2. No (365 votes [63.37%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 63.37%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#101 DeKnyff

DeKnyff
  • Member

  • 1,530 posts
  • Joined: November 13

Posted 26 November 2017 - 11:51

And what does the current situation have to do with next season?

 

It all starts from scratch, and they will be faced with some integration issues as already posted before from multiple sources.

 

No, it doesn't start from scratch, McLaren has undoubtfull a good base to develop from.



Advertisement

#102 Muzzyf1

Muzzyf1
  • Member

  • 1,082 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 26 November 2017 - 11:53

I dont see any improvement in acceleration or top speed improvement.
Yes a little more reliability is expected after losing 10 engines so far lol

#103 DaddyCool

DaddyCool
  • Member

  • 1,282 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 12:27

"Kubica will be back by 2013 latest"

"Kimi will never return to F1, let alone Ferrari"

"Alonso will never re-join McLaren as long as Dennis is there"

"Palmer is good, he just needs a bit more time to get his act together"

"Honda will challenge Mercedes come 2018"



#104 midgrid

midgrid
  • RC Forum Host

  • 7,546 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 26 November 2017 - 12:37

There was an interesting hypothetical column by Mark Hughes which posed the question of what would have happened if Honda had not pulled out of F1 at the end of 2008.

His alternate reality had Button finishing third in the 2009 Australian Grand Prix driving a Honda RA109, due to a combination of the weaker engine and the double-deck diffuser being revealed at the first pre-season test (Brawn missed it in the real world), giving the other teams initially without it more time to copy.

#105 LeClerc

LeClerc
  • Member

  • 11,304 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 26 November 2017 - 13:07

Lol that's not possible without knowing my real name :p n stop taking those pills, sounds like you got married when you were high :rotfl:

 

That would explain a lot :p



#106 Muzzyf1

Muzzyf1
  • Member

  • 1,082 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 26 November 2017 - 13:20

Watching the gp now and seeing how helpless Alonso is i have no doubt its the eight thing to get rod of Honda.

#107 turk157

turk157
  • Member

  • 177 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 26 November 2017 - 13:54

I think this "Honda is starting to improve" is more of a mirage.

I didn't get the exact quote but Martin Brundle on Sky said that he'd seen all sorts of interesting GPS data from Brazil and said that Renault were 5% (6%?) down on power just on the ICE and Honda were 11% down. Reminder that Renault were conservative on performance in Brazil...

 

 

A Renault powered car out qualifies a Ferrari and we get asked whether it is still a good  decision for Mclaren to switch to Renault.

 

 

Define strong. 20+ mph down on the straights is not "strong" in my book.

 

 

Looks like the poll starter hasn't been paying too much attention to McLaren Honda considering this thread is based on FP3 results...

 

 

You had to wait the qualification. Where was the strong showing?
I saw strong shoing from Ricciardo.
For McLaren everything was the same as the whole season - terible 1 and 2 sectors.

Easily keeping the renault of sainz behind,neary overtook the  williams mercedes of massa,

keeping pace with the williams mercedes down the straight not losing much time  ALLTHIS BEFORE PITSTOP

 

After Pitstop overtook massa

hoping for a strong finish for MclarenHonda and Alonso

 

I rest my case


Edited by turk157, 26 November 2017 - 14:07.


#108 registered

registered
  • Member

  • 556 posts
  • Joined: March 15

Posted 26 November 2017 - 14:05

Easily keeping the renault of sainz behind,neary overtook the mercedes of massa,
keeping pace with the mercedes down the straight not losing much time ALLTHIS BEFORE PITSTOP

After Pitstop overtook massa
hoping for a strong finish for MclarenHonda and Alonso

I rest my case

One word: DRS (even though it's actually three)

#109 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 12,852 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 14:06

Yes, he blew by Massa on cold tires but is losing time to the FIs ahead.

 

Chassis & tires matter. 



#110 turk157

turk157
  • Member

  • 177 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 26 November 2017 - 14:07

overtook him and now  a comfortable gap



#111 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 12,852 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 14:10

It seems you're oversimplifying this a wee bit. When you're down 20 mph on the straights, your success is not down to your engine. It's in spite of it. But don't let that stop you!



#112 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 12,852 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 14:13

The lead Renault-powered car is 54s ahead of Alonso with 14 laps left. Think about that before your next post about Honda catching Renault.


Edited by AustinF1, 26 November 2017 - 14:16.


#113 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • Member

  • 21,164 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 14:16

overtook him and now  a comfortable gap

 

Reaction to every small event, judging performance in increasingly short periods of time. Honda are F1's very own emerging market.



#114 Kraken

Kraken
  • Member

  • 980 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 14:36

There was an interesting hypothetical column by Mark Hughes which posed the question of what would have happened if Honda had not pulled out of F1 at the end of 2008.

His alternate reality had Button finishing third in the 2009 Australian Grand Prix driving a Honda RA109, due to a combination of the weaker engine and the double-deck diffuser being revealed at the first pre-season test (Brawn missed it in the real world), giving the other teams initially without it more time to copy.

So the teams couldn't have copied the one fitted to the Williams or the Toyota then. It's one of Buttons personal bug bears that so many people think the Brawn was the only car with a double diffuser right from the start.



#115 turk157

turk157
  • Member

  • 177 posts
  • Joined: November 17

Posted 26 November 2017 - 14:59

Alonso Legend

Fighting performance by Mclaren Honda

Todays performance may have dissapointed a few of you.

Looking forward to Melbourne in March



#116 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 10,370 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 15:15

Marko on German Sky: [Asked about PU plans for 2019]:

"We are currently working closely with Honda .... and Toro Rosso [added as an obvious afterthought] ... to make it competitive, we are very pleased with the progress Honda is making and will still make until the beginning of the season. [and some more about great faciliities and possibilities of Honda]"


Edited by KnucklesAgain, 26 November 2017 - 15:23.


#117 kissTheApex

kissTheApex
  • Member

  • 635 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 15:27

Alonso Legend
Fighting performance by Mclaren Honda
Todays performance may have dissapointed a few of you.
Looking forward to Melbourne in March


Finishing ninth with two retirements up front and passing Massa, who is finishing the season on his fourth PU is fighting performance? You are correct it is a disappointing performance, shamefully disappointing even.

This is not Boy Scouts where everyone gets a “participation” badge.

#118 paulogman

paulogman
  • Member

  • 2,642 posts
  • Joined: June 03

Posted 26 November 2017 - 15:32

once again, alonso losing time behind massa and even with the drs he could not keep up down the straights.

even once getting past massa, alonso could only pull out a few seconds due to the long straights helping massa keep from losing too much time.

honda will have to try and develop more power with even fewer power units...

the power unit limit will be tough on renault, but they are so much closer to ferrari and merc and have powered red bull to victories this season.

mclaren have made the best possible move. 

with red bull in their last season with renault after treating renault so badly, I can see mclaren getting better treatment.



#119 mclarensmps

mclarensmps
  • Member

  • 5,893 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 26 November 2017 - 16:08

was hoping for a strong quali but 11 and 13

looking forward for a strong points finish.

thread was not solely based on FP3 but consistent end of season form

cheers

 

The thing is, if you look at most FP2 and FP3 this season, about halfway into the season onwards, McLaren has always been in the top 7, only to fall away in qualifying, not just in positions, but in absolute lap time as well, and it has been by the same margin every single time. Thus, there is no "real" significant improvement at all. Everyone else is able to turn it up to 11 in qualifying and Honda are not. Maybe next year they'll be able to but so far, they have seemed incapable.



Advertisement

#120 ArrowsLivery

ArrowsLivery
  • Member

  • 3,026 posts
  • Joined: March 17

Posted 26 November 2017 - 16:21

The lead Renault-powered car is 54s ahead of Alonso with 14 laps left. Think about that before your next post about Honda catching Renault.


The lead Renault powered car is made by a significantly better team than McLaren.

#121 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 12,852 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 16:55

The lead Renault powered car is made by a significantly better team than McLaren.

Significantly better team? That's quite a broad statement. Using GPS data, McLaren says this year they'd have been fighting with RBR all year, winning some and losing some, had they been powered by Renault. 

 

When the car is so far down in the straights and yet so competitive in the twisty bits and in terms of lap times, is it really so hard to admit the problem is the PU?



#122 Stephane

Stephane
  • Member

  • 2,036 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 17:08

Of course the engine IS lacking, but that doesnt mean the chassis IS the best

#123 NixxxoN

NixxxoN
  • Member

  • 1,678 posts
  • Joined: June 17

Posted 26 November 2017 - 17:16

Even if the Renault engine is not a massive improvement and even if they never win anything with them... I'd say leaving Honda for another engine is a good thing, per se



#124 statman

statman
  • Member

  • 4,415 posts
  • Joined: December 15

Posted 26 November 2017 - 17:21

Significantly better team? That's quite a broad statement. Using GPS data, McLaren says this year they'd have been fighting with RBR all year, winning some and losing some, had they been powered by Renault.

 

Mclaren are obviously good at promotion...



#125 Quickshifter

Quickshifter
  • Member

  • 4,257 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 26 November 2017 - 17:23

Honda deserve some praise for  being reliable towards the end of the season. The reality is that if Sainz and Ricciardo did not retire Alonso would have finished outside points. Moral of the story is that at the end of third year of the partnership Mclaren Honda still cannot finish in points on merit. Yes the chassis is not up there with Mercedes/Ferrari/Red Bull but clearly superior than everyone else, yet they have to be satisfied with leftover scraps and this at the end of third year of the partnership. Honda tried but their best wasn't good enough to make Mclaren  even a regular points scorer on merit. I wish them all the luck and hold no grudges. Mclaren simply could not partake in another season fighting for leftover scraps from the likes Force India and Williams.


Edited by Quickshifter, 26 November 2017 - 17:55.


#126 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

RainyAfterlifeDaylight
  • Member

  • 4,007 posts
  • Joined: February 15

Posted 26 November 2017 - 18:21

I always have been very clear that I want McLaren to continue with Honda and I still believe that McLaren should've continued with Honda in 2018 and give Honda's new PU concept the last chance because as Honda get the experience with their PU concept, their rate of development gets better and better and 2016 is the proof.

 

All in all, McLaren's decision to separate from Honda could be their best decision or their worst decision and 2018 will reveal the answer.

 

I predict that Renault PU will make a step forward in 2018 but Honda PU will match Renault PU.



#127 Celloman

Celloman
  • Member

  • 738 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 26 November 2017 - 18:25

I think Honda will be better next season and will win 2019 WCC with Red Bull.

Haha, good joke.

 

We have been waiting for this Honda improvement for three years now. The first year they were saying the same, that they can catch the other PU's within the near future. Look where it went. Improving is one thing, but catching Mercedes and then somehow hoping Mercedes won't improve by an equal amount is a bit unrealistic target for the next two years.



#128 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 9,537 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 18:29

I always have been very clear that I want McLaren to continue with Honda and I still believe that McLaren should've continued with Honda in 2018 and give Honda's new PU concept the last chance because as Honda get the experience with their PU concept, their rate of development gets better and better and 2016 is the proof.

 

All in all, McLaren's decision to separate from Honda could be their best decision or their worst decision and 2018 will reveal the answer.

 

I predict that Renault PU will make a step forward in 2018 but Honda PU will match Renault PU.

 

McLaren want to win races and challenge for titles, not to score 76 points between two cars as in 2016 compared to 27 in 2015... so by your reasoning McLaren having scored 28 points this season should have stuck with Honda because they could improve to the point where they score 76 points again?

 

They don't want either scenario, so they had to change.



#129 Ferrari2012

Ferrari2012
  • Member

  • 605 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 26 November 2017 - 18:33

I think Honda will be better next season and will win 2019 WCC with Red Bull.

crazy statement.

 

 

Honda is crap and you will see it on the Torro Rosso Hartley and Gasly will lock the last row of the grid all the season.


Edited by Ferrari2012, 26 November 2017 - 18:35.


#130 Anuity

Anuity
  • Member

  • 176 posts
  • Joined: September 17

Posted 26 November 2017 - 18:36

Actually I'm impressed with Honda's progress throughout the year.
They could not complete a single lap in winter testing, but by now are quite decent.
Of course it's still a long way. And they should have dine better.
Next year will be difficult for them with Toro Rosso and very average drivers.

In the short term this switch will be good for Mclaren.
But in the long term I'm not so sure....

There were no results, that's true, but they should have sticked for at least a 5 year project. Three is not enough to become a winning team anyways.

I will be impressed if Mclaren is able to win at least one race next year on merit, but that us hard to imagine. And if they don't win then what's the point to switch really.

#131 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

RainyAfterlifeDaylight
  • Member

  • 4,007 posts
  • Joined: February 15

Posted 26 November 2017 - 18:44

McLaren want to win races and challenge for titles, not to score 76 points between two cars as in 2016 compared to 27 in 2015... so by your reasoning McLaren having scored 28 points this season should have stuck with Honda because they could improve to the point where they score 76 points again?

 

They don't want either scenario, so they had to change.

This time the difference is that unlike 2015/2016, Honda are satisfied with their new PU concept and they reckon it has the necessary technology to be a competitive PU. 2018 season is not that far away and I sincerely hope McLaren to do well in 2018.


Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 26 November 2017 - 18:49.


#132 GrumpyYoungMan

GrumpyYoungMan
  • Member

  • 5,703 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 26 November 2017 - 18:51

Imagine Alonso being confronted with Renault blow ups like the Toro Rosso boys, restriction of power (RB) or the overall shortage of parts/recycling of old parts.

Will he bash them in the media?

There could be a whole lot more to that story...

#133 GrumpyYoungMan

GrumpyYoungMan
  • Member

  • 5,703 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 26 November 2017 - 18:52

Actually I'm impressed with Honda's progress throughout the year.
They could not complete a single lap in winter testing, but by now are quite decent.
Of course it's still a long way. And they should have dine better.
Next year will be difficult for them with Toro Rosso and very average drivers.

In the short term this switch will be good for Mclaren.
But in the long term I'm not so sure....

There were no results, that's true, but they should have sticked for at least a 5 year project. Three is not enough to become a winning team anyways.

I will be impressed if Mclaren is able to win at least one race next year on merit, but that us hard to imagine. And if they don't win then what's the point to switch really.

I think 3 years is a fair chance given how Honda have performed they had no choice

#134 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 7,773 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 19:02

Actually I'm impressed with Honda's progress throughout the year.
They could not complete a single lap in winter testing, but by now are quite decent.
Of course it's still a long way. And they should have dine better.
Next year will be difficult for them with Toro Rosso and very average drivers.

In the short term this switch will be good for Mclaren.
But in the long term I'm not so sure....

There were no results, that's true, but they should have sticked for at least a 5 year project. Three is not enough to become a winning team anyways.

I will be impressed if Mclaren is able to win at least one race next year on merit, but that us hard to imagine. And if they don't win then what's the point to switch really.

 

It's true that they have improved a lot since the start of the season, but lets not get carried away as:

 

1. The unit they brought to pre-season testing was woefully inadequate to the point of being useless.

2. They promised so much would be achieved throughout the season, but nothing substantial was ever delivered

3. The current unit is still very underpowered in race conditions compared to their rivals

4. The current unit is still very underpowered in for qualifying and does not appear to have a special 'quali' mode

5. The current unit seems a lot more reliable, but it's still unclear exactly how reliable it is (and year it's 3 units for the whole season)

 

So, yes, improvements. But they have only really improved to the point at which they should have been at the start of the season.



#135 GrumpyYoungMan

GrumpyYoungMan
  • Member

  • 5,703 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 26 November 2017 - 19:04

It's true that they have improved a lot since the start of the season, but lets not get carried away as:

1. The unit they brought to pre-season testing was woefully inadequate to the point of being useless.
2. They promised so much would be achieved throughout the season, but nothing substantial was ever delivered
3. The current unit is still very underpowered in race conditions compared to their rivals
4. The current unit is still very underpowered in for qualifying and does not appear to have a special 'quali' mode
5. The current unit seems a lot more reliable, but it's still unclear exactly how reliable it is (and year it's 3 units for the whole season)

So, yes, improvements. But they have only really improved to the point at which they should have been at the start of the season.

The start of the 2014 season...

I wonder if they have reached even the power levels of the 2014 units yet...

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 26 November 2017 - 19:04.


#136 ArrowsLivery

ArrowsLivery
  • Member

  • 3,026 posts
  • Joined: March 17

Posted 26 November 2017 - 19:37

Significantly better team? That's quite a broad statement. Using GPS data, McLaren says this year they'd have been fighting with RBR all year, winning some and losing some, had they been powered by Renault.

When the car is so far down in the straights and yet so competitive in the twisty bits and in terms of lap times, is it really so hard to admit the problem is the PU?


Are you disputing that Red Bull are better than McLaren? Just look at their results, whatever time period you want. Last year, five or ten years, Red Bull have had a significantly better car and results over the time period. I don’t care what McLaren are saying, they are desperate for sponsors at the moment. They’ve purposefully run higher downforce - lower top speed packages to look better , while ultimately producing poor laptimes. Nothing showed that better than Spa!

You think Williams or FI can’t put on their Monaco package on the faster tracks? They’ll also look great in the corners but won’t put up competitive laptimes as well.

#137 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 12,852 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 19:40

This **** again ... 



#138 Maustinsj

Maustinsj
  • Member

  • 4,350 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 26 November 2017 - 19:43

Welcome to a world of ignore.

#139 ArrowsLivery

ArrowsLivery
  • Member

  • 3,026 posts
  • Joined: March 17

Posted 26 November 2017 - 19:43

I think 3 years is a fair chance given how Honda have performed they had no choice


Keep in mind Honda wanted to enter in 2016, but McLaren insisted on 2015. This should’ve been only their second year in the sport. Also keep in mind 2015-2016 were lost years because they were stuck with the too tightly packaged PU, again on Woking’s demands. Then they lost their good fuel package from Mobil1 which totally wrecked their lean burn technology.

Advertisement

#140 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 12,852 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 19:46

Keep in mind Honda wanted to enter in 2016, but McLaren insisted on 2015. This should’ve been only their second year in the sport. Also keep in mind 2015-2016 were lost years because they were stuck with the too tightly packaged PU, again on Woking’s demands. Then they lost their good fuel package from Mobil1 which totally wrecked their lean burn technology.

...and in the other thread you talk about McLaren making excuses? Can't wait to hear all the excuses you roll out for Honda next year.



#141 Jejking

Jejking
  • Member

  • 3,111 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 26 November 2017 - 21:03

Who won that race? Thank you.

Who lost that race? A 4 times bowling champion and his successor on-track both fell off the circuit in the first couple of corners. Don't count your chickens, Verstappens pace was strong, even with a detuned engine, but don't say for a moment that he wouldn't have been under more pressure if it had been Hamilton or Vettel behind him instead of Bottas, who was off the pace.

 

Meanwhile, the McLaren with everything only could find a way with pure muscle power during the pit stops. Otherwise it would have been Brazil all over again. The progress is dreadful and indeed a mirage. Meanwhile, Ricciardo held off Raikkonen on the straights before walking away with it. Gotta say something.


Edited by Jejking, 26 November 2017 - 21:05.


#142 BJHF1

BJHF1
  • Member

  • 1,706 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 26 November 2017 - 21:46

Toro Rosso-Honda team might call themself "The Rejects". A badass combination of B-team who no one seems to give a damn about, second hand drivers and a hopeless engine. A marriage made in heaven  :stoned:


I have a suspicion Red Bull is probably manipulating things in an attempt to put as much pressure on Honda. Honda seemingly have no option (for the time being) but to throw their turd PU in the back of the turd Torro Rosso chassis, with their turd drivers.

Honda will be forced to go to any measure to make their PU genuinely competitive, otherwise they will be stuck with Toro, while being the laughing stock of F1. Of course Red Bull can decide to stick with Renault or look elsewhere if Honda can't turn it around. For me, Toro Rosso seems to be an absolute guinea pig team atm with the senior team pulling all of the strings atm :lol:

#143 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 12,852 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 26 November 2017 - 21:51

I have a suspicion Red Bull is probably manipulating things in an attempt to put as much pressure on Honda. Honda seemingly have no option (for the time being) but to throw their turd PU in the back of the turd Torro Rosso chassis, with their turd drivers.

Honda will be forced to go to any measure to make their PU genuinely competitive, otherwise they will be stuck with Toro, while being the laughing stock of F1. Of course Red Bull can decide to stick with Renault or look elsewhere if Honda can't turn it around. For me, Toro Rosso seems to be an absolute guinea pig team atm with the senior team pulling all of the strings atm :lol:

At the moment? Isn't that all they've ever been?



#144 vassilispapadop

vassilispapadop
  • Member

  • 299 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 26 November 2017 - 22:28

It's true that they have improved a lot since the start of the season, but lets not get carried away as:

 

1. The unit they brought to pre-season testing was woefully inadequate to the point of being useless.

2. They promised so much would be achieved throughout the season, but nothing substantial was ever delivered

3. The current unit is still very underpowered in race conditions compared to their rivals

4. The current unit is still very underpowered in for qualifying and does not appear to have a special 'quali' mode

5. The current unit seems a lot more reliable, but it's still unclear exactly how reliable it is (and year it's 3 units for the whole season)

 

So, yes, improvements. But they have only really improved to the point at which they should have been at the start of the season.

 

I agree.

There is no point to play  "WHAT IF" game but things would have been so much different. As a McLaren and Honda fan i feel really sad it didn't work out.

 

I find all of your points correct but regarding nr 4, well i'm really against.It seems quali mode is just extra engine oil in the combustion chamber which i believe is against the idea behind the whole hybrid PUs era. It's the black-hole of exceptional engineering. Personally i don't give any credit to Mercedes for this.



#145 BJHF1

BJHF1
  • Member

  • 1,706 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 26 November 2017 - 22:33

At the moment? Isn't that all they've ever been?


Yea, that's mostly true. It just seems like it's the case now more than ever I guess.

Honda are pinned in a corner atm, and it's almost in Red Bull's interest to provide Honda with a back marker package (chassis/drivers), so Honda goes to extremes if they ever want to pair with a top level chassis maker.

#146 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 7,773 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 27 November 2017 - 00:17

I agree.

There is no point to play  "WHAT IF" game but things would have been so much different. As a McLaren and Honda fan i feel really sad it didn't work out.

 

I find all of your points correct but regarding nr 4, well i'm really against.It seems quali mode is just extra engine oil in the combustion chamber which i believe is against the idea behind the whole hybrid PUs era. It's the black-hole of exceptional engineering. Personally i don't give any credit to Mercedes for this.

 

I don't disagree with this. The trouble with the FIA is that they seem to be incapable of outside-the-box thinking and writing rules to cover their intent. I'm not sure whether they are incompetent of they just deliberately put loopholes in to make it more interesting and, perhaps, have some influence on who wins (by choosing whether or not to 'clarify' the rules at a later date depending on who is getting the most advantage out of a loophole).



#147 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 12,852 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 27 November 2017 - 00:23

I don't disagree with this. The trouble with the FIA is that they seem to be incapable of outside-the-box thinking and writing rules to cover their intent. I'm not sure whether they are incompetent of they just deliberately put loopholes in to make it more interesting and, perhaps, have some influence on who wins (by choosing whether or not to 'clarify' the rules at a later date depending on who is getting the most advantage out of a loophole).

That's exactly where I am. I do have my doubts, though, that they're collectively competent enough to actually pull off something like that.



#148 PeterScandlyn

PeterScandlyn
  • Member

  • 347 posts
  • Joined: October 17

Posted 27 November 2017 - 03:11

Brain dead from Todt down, so incompetent works for me.....



#149 Nova

Nova
  • Member

  • 10,942 posts
  • Joined: September 02

Posted 27 November 2017 - 05:43

Yea, that's mostly true. It just seems like it's the case now more than ever I guess.

Honda are pinned in a corner atm, and it's almost in Red Bull's interest to provide Honda with a back marker package (chassis/drivers), so Honda goes to extremes if they ever want to pair with a top level chassis maker.

 

I never understood this. Like Honda is slacking and such things would light their fire. Some thought that it was the case with McLaren as well, that Honda would not make an effort if McLaren did not talk trash in the media about Honda. I may be naive, but really?



#150 Reinmuster

Reinmuster
  • Member

  • 896 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 27 November 2017 - 06:40

It's true that they have improved a lot since the start of the season, but lets not get carried away as:

 

1. The unit they brought to pre-season testing was woefully inadequate to the point of being useless.

2. They promised so much would be achieved throughout the season, but nothing substantial was ever delivered

3. The current unit is still very underpowered in race conditions compared to their rivals

4. The current unit is still very underpowered in for qualifying and does not appear to have a special 'quali' mode

5. The current unit seems a lot more reliable, but it's still unclear exactly how reliable it is (and year it's 3 units for the whole season)

 

So, yes, improvements. But they have only really improved to the point at which they should have been at the start of the season.

 

 

http://f1sokuho.mopi...ics_type=-1&rn=

 

To overtake Massa,alonso uesd the qualifying mode.

 
 
They did have although Honda's qualify mode are not on par with Mercedes.