37 replies to this topic

[Afterburner]

This is actually a serious question, prompted by Ross Brawn’s comments about current tracks having layouts unsuitable for racing, but interestingly enough not tied to any of the typical cost-control quips we usually hear when the question of sustainability comes about. As the cars get quicker, existing tracks provide an inadequate stomping ground for their capabilities, reducing races to processions. But are the tracks the only problem?

It’s clear that, unrestricted, teams could design cars with characteristics that far exceed human tolerance, and would require G-suits or some other assistive apparatus to drive. CART experienced one such instance of their cars being too fast on a heavily-banked oval several years ago. This is part of the reason that we have regulations to prevent the cars from becoming too fast. F1 may be the pinnacle of motorsport, but it’s held at an artificial ceiling by subpar tyres and a rulebook full of legalese.

F1 combines our desire to see fast cars with great racing, but at the limit of human capability, do these desires intersect in the context of competition? Assume we let the teams go free and develop cars however they wanted, with the only restriction being that they are incapable of exceeding a G-limit as in Red Bull’s Air Race championship so that humans could pilot the cars unassisted. We are on the verge of having robotic drivers now that could be used to test the limits of such cars equally–why not completely toss the rules, set the limit at what our bodies can handle, and go from there?

That would answer the performance question–but how does the racing look when we get there? Will different design philosophies be available at the cutting edge, ones that have an equal chance at victory? Or as now, will everybody converge on a single, most-competitively-viable design to the exclusion of all others, racing be damned?

Here comes the question–when F1 gets to the point of exceeding human limits (not if), what do we do then? Do we trust the teams to funnel their designs through a series of legal mandates intended to ban devices which harm the racing? Does the FIA take control and brand F1 a drivers’ championship, enforcing a single-make rule to breed competition while challenging constructors to build even faster machines piloted by AI in another series? Or do human drivers become completely obsolete in pursuit of the ultimate tech? Will anyone even care about racing as a sport at that point?

So what do we do next? What happens to Formula One when it can’t go any faster?

Edited by Afterburner, 05 December 2017 - 19:29.

[PayasYouRace]

What’s wrong for with what it is now and has always been? That is, a formula of rules within which a car must be built, keeping speeds and costs in check. I know it doesn’t always work, but why must it become anything else?

[F1Champion]

F1 already is not running at max speed for the last 15 years, maybe even more. F1 has always created rules to control max speeds. For me the lap time isn't important - 10 seconds quicker or slower bares little/no importance to me as its arbitrary. What is important is that drivers can sprint/go flat out with the tools at their disposal. Convergence to spec racing isn't a bad thing - the most memorable seasons of F1 are when there are 2/3/4 way battles for the top spot or WDC. Let the drivers rise to the top instead of being hampered. The last 4-5 years have been a lost period in F1. Top drivers unable to compete with one another and being completely shut out from the podium, good racing lost, memorable moments consigned to the dustbin. The combinations of Vet/Ham/Ros/Bot/Kimi/Max/Ric/Alo/Hulk interacting with one another isn't happening and that's a crying shame.

 

F1 has always legislated to be slower. They'll decrease engine capacity or restore capacity but reduce fuel or something else in the rule book to control things.

Edited by F1Champion, 05 December 2017 - 19:38.

[Afterburner]

What’s wrong for with what it is now and has always been? That is, a formula of rules within which a car must be built, keeping speeds and costs in check. I know it doesn’t always work, but why must it become anything else?

I’m not necessarily assuming it’ll change, just speculating on what might happen as time passes and the cars get faster, and that idea is followed to its conclusion.

[kevinracefan]

no, it will not...

(if that was truly a serious question)

[John Player]

If it ever comes to that point I hope at least we get V10s and V12s back

[superden]

I think it's destined to become even duller.

[ArrowsLivery]

This is stupid. It's not F1 if it's a spec series or if there are robot drivers. It's incredibly easy to write a rulebook that keeps the speeds under control. 

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Just make hidden components as spec as possible, specially suspensions.

 

Right now I imagine every top team is looking to design an extraordinary suspension to gain advantage because the suspension related gains look to be huge and worthy.

Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 05 December 2017 - 20:49.

[pdac]

Yes.

[oetzi]

If Liberty want their pound of flesh and the teams will take the scraps that's exactly what it will become

[Bloggsworth]

More of a Noah's Ark series - The cars came in 2 by 2 - 2 Mercedes, 2 Ferraris, 2 Red Bulls, 2 Force Indias plus also rans...

[oetzi]

More of a Noah's Ark series - The cars came in 2 by 2 - 2 Mercedes, 2 Ferraris, 2 Red Bulls, 2 Force Indias plus also rans...

Almost every spec series with competent teams and drivers produces roughly that anyway

Edited by oetzi, 05 December 2017 - 21:48.

[RECKLESS]

I kinda like the idea of a maximum limited g-force formula... Hmmm

[oetzi]

Isn't that what Pirelli are for?

[Bristo]

There is nothing wrong with current rules and regulations. Only issue that affecting F1 at the moment is money. All other issues are evolved from that.

[THEWALL]

I don't know if it's destined to become a spec series, but the best probability of creating good racing would be to put these drivers in a spec series. I hope if not F1, it will happen through some other racing series. No one really cares about speed (can't really be noticed especially on TV unless the speeds are radically slower as in FE) or engineering if it doesn't create good racing. "F1 has always been like this" or "F1 has never been spec", though frequently used, are not valid arguments as the fact that something has been a certain way doesn't mean it should continur to be so (pretty basic fallacy but used a lot).

 

Having said that, maybe some sort of AI racing where there are no limits could be fun, especially if there's  lot of destruction present as that would be the only positive thing of AI drivers vs human ones. And it would, hopefully, finally rid racing fans of corporate interests.

[WOT]

Just make hidden components as spec as possible, specially suspensions.

 

Right now I imagine every top team is looking to design an extraordinary suspension to gain advantage because the suspension related gains look to be huge and worthy.

 

Sorry, I disagree. Aero is the thing that needs to be controlled, to the point where cars can tail each other through high speed corners. Maybe a spec venturi floor, spec (simple) wings. Anything that will reduce the tail-wash has to improve the racing. Reduce the capability for development of aero and you reduce costs dramatically. 

 

Hell I'd even go back to a form of active suspension. Suspension development is an area that should be encouraged to produce greater mechanical grip and reduce the reliance on aero.

[spacekid]

I think Afterburner makes a good point. I feel that F1 outgrew itself quite some time ago, and hasn’t known what it is or what it’s for for quite some time. That’s why we keep getting annoying knee jerk rule changes and complaints.

Is F1 a competition between teams who make racing cars or a competition between drivers? It worked as both in the past, but I think trying to do both things has been leaving a lot of fans unsatisfied for a while now.

[WOT]

I think Afterburner makes a good point. I feel that F1 outgrew itself quite some time ago, and hasn’t known what it is or what it’s for for quite some time. That’s why we keep getting annoying knee jerk rule changes and complaints.

Is F1 a competition between teams who make racing cars or a competition between drivers? It worked as both in the past, but I think trying to do both things has been leaving a lot of fans unsatisfied for a while now.

 

Formula One was created and promoted as a "Drivers" championship. I think it was some 8 years later that they decided to tack on a "Constructors" championship.

[Nonesuch]

What’s wrong for with what it is now and has always been?

 

At least three, maybe four teams are spending nearly half a billion dollars to build cars and engines that are about 8-10 seconds faster than F2 cars on any given track. They're either the largest group of engineering school rejects, or, and much more likely, the advancements of automotive technology have brought an open development racing series to its natural end point - a reality the FIA and F1 itself is hiding under ever more complex and pre- and restrictive regulations.

 

Both the engine and the car have no real future. The cars are left with only a narrow band in which design freedom still exists, and this in turn leads to the spending of dozens of millions on goofy front and rear wings that not only have zero relevance to anything other than F1's own self-created problems but also directly impact the cars' ability to follow in close proximity, thus harming the racing. Spending such enormous amounts of money on optimizing solutions to pointless problems is part of what gives the enormous gap in performance between the big spenders, and the normal teams. It's actually more like chasm than a gap at this point. Whatever new regulation is cooked up, F1 cars can't go significantly faster and so the regulations will keep their stranglehold over the series. Maybe a second here or there, but the FIA has been ditching innovation for decades at this point, all in an effort to slow the cars down. Even some random Toyota or Volkswagen of say, €25,000, has a lot of technology on board that far surpasses what is allowed in F1.

 

A spec-series can directly address the most obvious problem of all: the aerodynamics of F1 cars are terrible. They're bad for the car's own performance (huge drag and very sensitive), and they're bad for the racing (dirty air). If done right, I would welcome what I previously dubbed GP1, but which might now instead have to be called... F1? It's confusing!

Edited by Nonesuch, 05 December 2017 - 23:31.

[Tsarwash]

There is nothing wrong with current rules and regulations. Only issue that affecting F1 at the moment is money. All other issues are evolved from that.

So that was a great racing season, was it ? If so, God protect us from a dull one.

[loki]

No

[WOT]

So that was a great racing season, was it ? If so, God protect us from a dull one.

 

 

No

 

I think that was a rhetorical question..... 

[Otaku]

Destined to become non-existant

[E1pix]

Brilliant OP, but F1 has no reason to go much faster, as the track configurations (per safety risks) won't allow that, anyway.

Cost-control is its biggest threat. Even there though, there's too much investment involved for much short of a cataclysm to just stop it cold. Just think of the challenges it's survived to date.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Formula1 actually is a spec serie but we don't call it that way because it is a taboo in Formula1 world.

In Formula1 we have sets of mandatory rules that force teams to end up with similar design concepts (after lots of money and resource spending) and when a team finds and uses a loophole (after lots of money and resource spending), FIA bans that advantage to guarantee closer competition which is equal to what spec series are designed to do but the difference is that spec series actually guarantee closer competition and it is less expensive and more practical.

 

Formula1 almost mimics spec series concept but with different ways that are expensive and confusing.

Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 06 December 2017 - 08:56.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Similar design concepts doesn't make it a spec series.

 

And yes sadly F1 is heading to be yet another Spec series

[spacekid]

Formula1 actually is a spec serie but we don't call it that way because it is a taboo in Formula1 world.
In Formula1 we have sets of mandatory rules that force teams to end up with similar design concepts (after lots of money and resource spending) and when a team finds and uses a loophole (after lots of money and resource spending), FIA bans that advantage to guarantee closer competition which is equal to what spec series are designed to do but the difference is that spec series actually guarantee closer competition and it is less expensive and more practical.

Formula1 almost mimics spec series concept but with different ways that are expensive and confusing.

You’ve nailed it. The game at the moment is all the teams need to make the same car, but have to figure out for themselves how to do it.

[Dennista]

We are heading towards a Formula E wannabe series.

 

We need to reverse this asap by:

 

- Sacking Tilke and returning all the circuits to their former glory - Imola, Old Hockenheim, Old Silverstone

- Sack Todt and Charlie Whiting

- Minimum age limit of 23

- Facial hair and hair on the chest should be encouraged

- No Halo

- None of this electronic BS, Kers, DRS nonsense

- Go back to V10s 3L engines

- Remove penalties for overtaking. Only penalize for clear dangerous driving

 - Unlimited engines and gearboxes

[statman]

We are heading towards a Formula E wannabe series.

 

We need to reverse this asap by:

 

- Sacking Tilke and returning all the circuits to their former glory - Imola, Old Hockenheim, Old Silverstone

- Sack Todt and Charlie Whiting

- Minimum age limit of 23

- Facial hair and hair on the chest should be encouraged

- No Halo

- None of this electronic BS, Kers, DRS nonsense

- Go back to V10s 3L engines

- Remove penalties for overtaking. Only penalize for clear dangerous driving

 - Unlimited engines and gearboxes

 

Agree with the bold statements

[PayasYouRace]

We are heading towards a Formula E wannabe series.
 
We need to reverse this asap by:
 
- Sacking Tilke and returning all the circuits to their former glory - Imola, Old Hockenheim, Old Silverstone
- Sack Todt and Charlie Whiting
- Minimum age limit of 23
- Facial hair and hair on the chest should be encouraged
- No Halo
- None of this electronic BS, Kers, DRS nonsense
- Go back to V10s 3L engines
- Remove penalties for overtaking. Only penalize for clear dangerous driving
 - Unlimited engines and gearboxes

Are you sure this isn’t what you’re looking for? http://www.mastershi...1/championship/

[kevinracefan]

F1 took a downturn over saving money..

 

to save money teams can't test.. racing suffers..

 

to save money, engine rules are locked in and only a few opportunities to upgrade.. racing suffers..

[sopa]

We are heading towards a Formula E wannabe series.

 

We need to reverse this asap by:

 

- Minimum age limit of 23

 

 

So Max Verstappen would race his first full F1 season in 2021... What a pity.

[Dennista]

So Max Verstappen would race his first full F1 season in 2021... What a pity.

 

The cars would be too difficult to drive for a teenager so yes.

[Tsarwash]

We are heading towards a Formula E wannabe series.

 

We need to reverse this asap by:

 

- Sacking Tilke and returning all the circuits to their former glory - Imola, Old Hockenheim, Old Silverstone

- Sack Todt and Charlie Whiting

- Minimum age limit of 23

- Facial hair and hair on the chest should be encouraged

- No Halo

- None of this electronic BS, Kers, DRS nonsense

- Go back to V10s 3L engines

- Remove penalties for overtaking. Only penalize for clear dangerous driving

 - Unlimited engines and gearboxes

Even for the female drivers ?    (hairy boobs are great)

[Cornholio]

Formula One was created and promoted as a "Drivers" championship. I think it was some 8 years later that they decided to tack on a "Constructors" championship.

 

At the risk of being pedantic it was created as a set of regulations that people created cars to, and it was a few years later that the Drivers Championship was formed, using those regulations. In fact I don't think it was until 1981 that it was officially promoted as the "F1 World Drivers Championship" (or words to that effect)

 

To answer the thread's question - sadly yes. Even a pessimist like me doesn't think Brawn is going to unveil a plan for a fully one-make F1 tomorrow (or any time in the next 2 or 3 years come to think of it), but it's one of those "on a long enough timeline the probability approaches 1" sort of things.

 

And I've got to be honest, if it wasn't for the presence of the manufacturers I honestly think they would introduce a spec engine tomorrow, Mosley even tried it on nearly a decade ago now. It's the single, solitary reason why, for all the headaches they cause, I'm actually grateful for their presence in the sport.

[Kraken]

We are heading towards a Formula E wannabe series.

 

We need to reverse this asap by:

 

- Sacking Tilke and returning all the circuits to their former glory - Imola, Old Hockenheim, Old Silverstone

- Sack Todt and Charlie Whiting

- Minimum age limit of 23

- Facial hair and hair on the chest should be encouraged

- No Halo

- None of this electronic BS, Kers, DRS nonsense

- Go back to V10s 3L engines

- Remove penalties for overtaking. Only penalize for clear dangerous driving

 - Unlimited engines and gearboxes

 

 

Follow the several other series that do all of that already. Why do people always think that F1 has to be changed to be their ideal motorsport when it almost certainly exists already?

 

Probably because their favourite driver is in F1 and that's the real issue with F1. It's not really about the cars or the tracks or anything else but the celebrity of the drivers. Put all the F1 drivers into WTCC (or anything else) and a bunch of drivers in F1 that no-one had heard of an I know which series viewing figures would shoot up.