88 replies to this topic

[Graveltrappen]

It seems to me that the glory days of Williams being an engineering force are gone forever. The team has struggled for an identity for the past 20 years and has been in decline with slight improvement and then even steeper decline for many years now.

Long term do you think Claire Williams will be able to lead them back to glory? Or will she lose the team once frank is gone. Will be a sad day when the Williams name is gone from f1 but I don’t hold out much hope for them at the moment.

[NixxxoN]

They've struggled ever since BMW left. Only when they got their special relationship with Mercedes, they somehow managed to get good performance (mostly in 2014), but other than that...

Edited by NixxxoN, 06 December 2017 - 15:44.

[krioru]

With Kubica help, of course.

[superden]

A spent force, sadly.

Unless they get unbelievably lucky with a cash/driver/design team combination and regulations that allow some sort of free thought and innovation. Even more sadly, the rules of modern F1 are such that the above is highly unlikely to ever occur.

I don't see McLaren 'making it back' either.

Edited by superden, 06 December 2017 - 15:55.

[F1matt]

The glory days are long gone and unless they find a billionaire backer (because sponsors seem to be a thing of the past) who is willing to chuck hundreds of millions of dollars per season and employ some top designers, engineers and drivers they are stuck down the bottom, even with the most powerful engine on the grid. Really sad situation IMO.

[Graveltrappen]

The guard has changed hasn’t it. The ‘forces’ of the 80’s and 90’s are toast. Reduced to just ‘making up the numbers’

Can’t be a coincidence that Ron and Frank/Patrick are no longer involved.

[Graveltrappen]

The glory days are long gone and unless they find a billionaire backer (because sponsors seem to be a thing of the past) who is willing to chuck hundreds of millions of dollars per season and employ some top designers, engineers and drivers they are stuck down the bottom, even with the most powerful engine on the grid. Really sad situation IMO.

Crazy that with the best engine they still struggle. Perhaps Daddy Stroll could purchase the team and rename it?

[superden]

The guard has changed hasn’t it. The ‘forces’ of the 80’s and 90’s are toast. Reduced to just ‘making up the numbers’

Can’t be a coincidence that Ron and Frank/Patrick are no longer involved.

I'd have left long ago too, modern F1 is just appallingly bad and the culture that surrounds it simply exacerbates it's slow, painful and inevitable decline into dull mediocrity.

It won't disappear overnight, but by any measure it's glory days are several decades past now. The people who say 'it isn't worse now, merely different' either didn't witness the sport in its prime, or have been sucked in by the modern 'PR' driven, highly polished turd they like to call 'the show'.

It's all show and no substance.

Much like modern culture.

[F1matt]

Crazy that with the best engine they still struggle. Perhaps Daddy Stroll could purchase the team and rename it?

 

It will be cheaper to fund Lance with a team performing higher up the grid than buying the team, who knows with Ferrari losing Santander money he may be able to help out. 

[Kalmake]

The guard has changed hasn’t it. The ‘forces’ of the 80’s and 90’s are toast. Reduced to just ‘making up the numbers’

Can’t be a coincidence that Ron and Frank/Patrick are no longer involved.

They were in charge when they failed to capitalize on BMW power. That's what dropped them to midfield for good.

[aportinga]

Sometimes I wonder what the trajectory would have been - or if success would have been sustainable had they not had such eratic driver changes during those seasons when they were performing well.

[Cornholio]

I always felt that Williams after Frank should, theoretically, be no different from McLaren after Bruce or Ferrari after Enzo. Not guaranteed to be, but no reason why it couldn't be. Admittedly a simplistic comparison though - Ferrari had developed into a name that transcended the sport, and growing Fiat involvement anyway, long before Enzo passed, while Bruce died very early on in his team's life, neither apply here.

 

More generally though, I don't think any of today's F1 teams are pre-ordained to be locked into mediocrity for the rest of their existence. Just 15 years ago look at where Jaguar and BAR were. Those same organisations have swept the last nine championships between them. Sauber have risen to almost the top, then back down again. By contrast the team at Silverstone have gone from leading privateer to tail enders then back up again. The team at Faenza have gone from perennial tail enders to respectable midfielders and regular points scorers who have won a Grand Prix.

 

Which of course begs the question in what form the Grove team would be in, what ownership, and even whether they would be known as "Williams" were they ever to become the leading team again, although they do have a more established name than any of the others who have changed identities when they have swapped hands, which is probably closer to my feelings in the first paragraph when I compare them to Ferrari and McLaren.

Edited by Cornholio, 06 December 2017 - 16:35.

[Requiem84]

The only way for Williams to really get back to the top is a tie-up with a manufacturer. 

 

But under the new leadership, they do not really seem to be interested in this? Could it be due to their stock exchange listings? They prefer to have some certainty regarding the balance sheet / profit etc.. shareholder value and all of that. 

[Vielleicht]

I think almost of William's issues are part of the wider problems F1 is facing with 'competitive mobility'

I think Claire is perfectly capabable given the right conditions.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

2021 engine regulations can revive teams like Williams.

[dau]

Frank Williams stepped down from the board in 2012. Claire was appointed Deputy Team Principal in 2013. Here's Williams WCC positions since the BMW divorce:

 

 

 

Seems post-Frank Williams is doing better than ever since the BMW heyday.

[Vettelari]

Without manufacturer backing they have a very slim chance of winning a race or being competitive in the WCC. It's a sad state of affairs that is true of every team on the grid, bar Red Bull/Newey.

 

If Honda manage to come good, I could see them teaming up with Williams in the future and possibly creating a force once again. Out of all the teams, Williams seem to have the best facilities of the non works teams along with Sauber. Both would be attractive if VAG, BMW, Ford, GM, Toyota, etc. decide to join the show.

 

I still contend that the sport is missing 2 big-time manufacturers in its current state. BMW coming back to Sauber and VAG/Toyota revamping Williams would create a very interesting field with much more competition for wins each race. Renault will come good soon. Having 6 teams that can compete for the win each GP would be a dream come true. Like Mercedes, Ferrari, RBR (Aston Martin?), Renault, and 2 of McLaren (?)/Williams (VAG?) (Ford?) (Honda?)/Sauber (BMW?)/Force India (Toyota?) (Mahindra?)/HAAS (Ford?) with the backing needed to level the playing field.

 

Looking at Formula E's works teams being backed by Jaguar, Renault, Peugeot, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, Mahindra, and BMW is downright depressing in comparison to the few manufacturers involved in F1 these days. If not for dieselgate, I wonder what the landscape would be like for the upcoming 2018 season. I'd imagine their entry would have dragged BMW back into the fray, as well. I don't think they could've stood still while Mercedes, VAG, and Ferrari were getting all the attention in F1.

Edited by Vettelari, 06 December 2017 - 17:49.

[Nathan]

I would think a works tie up would increase shareholder value, but I wonder if being publicly traded limits the number of manufactures willing to work with them?

[LuckyStrike1]

2021 engine regulations can revive teams like Williams.

 

Yes we learn that everytime F1 changes regulations it is the big players that win in the long run, instead of suddenly transforming midfield teams into top teams. 

And before anyone mentions it - yes, Brawn GP. But the circumstances was different with the team that in the end became Mercedes dominant works team. 

So no - I doubt Williams will suddenly become a top team again in 2021 thanks to the new, and so far unknown, regulations by then. But it's theoretically possible of course. 

But after the power politics has hacked through the new regulations, it will still favour big teams with large resources. 

[Fatgadget]

Williams is not just about F1. They apparently have their tentacles in some unusual sectors of everyday life. https://www.theengin...l-system/

[Nathan]

About 30% of WGPE revenue comes from outside F1.

[FNG]

Hands down my favourite team. I sure hope they survive but I'm not so sure. These engine regs are just brutal. Way too expensive.

 

Some may say I'm nuts but Williams should have courted Honda hard once the cracks in the Mac relationship started. Mac deals with the horror show that was Honda's first 3 years then Williams get a mediocre to bad engine, but reliable, to start with. Plus $100 million a year of Honda money would have given them a huge development push.

 

F1 really is lost...

[MrMan]

Williams is not just about F1. They apparently have their tentacles in some unusual sectors of everyday life. https://www.theengin...l-system/

 

Don't they also manufacturer the batteries for Formula E?

[sopa]

People have been asking the same question about Sauber once Peter retired. Different leadership and we could argue about their strengths and weaknesses. Hard to tell, how good a leader Claire is.

 

But either way Williams is destined for midfield unless they get proper works support (except Honda, lol) one day again. And Williams has been in midfield ever since losing works status after 2005, so in the grand scheme of things the situation is clear. Yeah, they can have some better seasons if the stars align and new regulations temporarily play in their favour (i.e 2014), or if they hopelessly mess up their chassis, they can drop below midfield (2011, 2013). But overall trend is visible.

[Kalmake]

Don't they also manufacturer the batteries for Formula E?

They are losing that gig to McLaren from next season.

[empe]

Two Great Britain's icons gone then. OK. Next please.

[pRy]

The team is in good hands. It's the sport that's strangling it. Along with all of the other "also ran" teams. 

 

Williams in it's successful period was the same story as every other recent successful team... right aerodynamic engineer at the right team with a decent engine. It's been the same for decades. 

 

I think they're doing as well as they can be currently. As long as they're still making a profit they're doing ok.

[maverick69]

They need to be a works team - or to find a silver bullet in the regs that forms a fundamental part of the car concept.

 

I hope they do..... because as far as supporting teams go - they're at the top of my list every time.

[Anuity]

I like Williams, although not a fan.
Don't agree that they haven't been the force for the Last 20 years. They really fell from the top mid 2005.
Other thing, I feel, that while results have improved since 2014, but ironically 2006-2013 Williams with poor results seemed to hace much more pride and character. A paradox.

I always wondered why is Mclaren has such a massive fanbase and Williams seems to have a very small one v

[Kalmake]

I like Williams, although not a fan.
Don't agree that they haven't been the force for the Last 20 years. They really fell from the top mid 2005.
Other thing, I feel, that while results have improved since 2014, but ironically 2006-2013 Williams with poor results seemed to hace much more pride and character. A paradox.

I always wondered why is Mclaren has such a massive fanbase and Williams seems to have a very small one v

McLaren likes having WDCs in the team. That builds team fanbase by association. Even in the recent times of poor results they have had Button and Alonso.

 

Williams never liked to pay. Williams must have a record for not re-signing drivers after they become WDC. These days of course they can't pay.

[Fondmetal]

Rather the team folds than to have that clown run it.

Crazy that with the best engine they still struggle. Perhaps Daddy Stroll could purchase the team and rename it?

[Tsarwash]

Williams will be back at some point. I hope that Frank lives to see that.  

[PlayboyRacer]

Never been the same since Newey departed in 1997. Wonder how much Frank and Patrick regretted that decision? Sure for a couple years BMW Williams/Montoya were mighty and fought for the 03 title... but they have never hit those lofty highs of the 90s again.

Don't expect that to ever change now.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 07 December 2017 - 03:09.

[PeterScandlyn]

Appears to me that too much is ascribed to FW's role by the OP 

 

I feel the real force to the team's performance side fell more to PH and, sadly, I'm not able to see that PL fellow resurrecting that performance.

Time will tell.

[RandomG]

The team is still in a better shape than their 2006-2013 form.

[ArrowsLivery]

I like Clair, but the team won't be at the top unless the sport is drastically changed. 

 

Hands down my favourite team. I sure hope they survive but I'm not so sure. These engine regs are just brutal. Way too expensive. 

 

Some may say I'm nuts but Williams should have courted Honda hard once the cracks in the Mac relationship started. Mac deals with the horror show that was Honda's first 3 years then Williams get a mediocre to bad engine, but reliable, to start with. Plus $100 million a year of Honda money would have given them a huge development push.

 

F1 really is lost...

 

  Engine costs are pretty low at the moment for privateers, probably at a lower percentage of overall budget than they've been for the last 15+ years. 

[RacingGreen]

Hopefully Brawn will impose a set of sensible engine regulations and a fairer franchise style financial model so that the Saubers, Force Indias, Williams etc. of this world are not just grid fillers to make the manufacturers look good. It's not just Williams' future that's at stake.

[WilliamsF1Fan]

Williams are after Frank 

 

 

Not sure he has the head for F1 to be honest.  

 

I joke as to be honest I do not look forward to the day Sir Frank Williams is not involved in some small way with the team.  Call me sentimental, but I like the fact it is still a largely 'family' run team.  I hope that in future Claire Williams continues and they remain/become more of a forward thinking company able to take advantage of rule changes and maybe snag a factory partner.

[Requiem84]

Williams is now more a business than a racing team imo.

[sopa]

 

I think they're doing as well as they can be currently. As long as they're still making a profit they're doing ok.

 

In F1 you could say they should be able to beat Force India though. Especially as many think they have a bigger budget than F.I.

[CoolBreeze]

Sadly, i dont think Williams will be the force they were once known for. The main problem here, is F1 is leaning towards the manufacturer, and it's all going against them to begin with.

 

They also have issues such as no prodigy talents, both in engineering and also the drivers. They hardly attract any sponsorship. They pay driver scheme haven't been going well for some time now. What they need now is to land a nice sponsorship(s), hire proper drivers and engineers, and then maybe find an engine provider outside of F1. They ain't gonna go anywhere with Merc, Ferrari or Renault engines. I don't know..perhaps Porsche. or Audi.

 

Then maybe, they might come back again.

[Clatter]

The only way for Williams to really get back to the top is a tie-up with a manufacturer.

But under the new leadership, they do not really seem to be interested in this? Could it be due to their stock exchange listings? They prefer to have some certainty regarding the balance sheet / profit etc.. shareholder value and all of that.

I'm sure they are interested, but there is not exactly a glut of manufacturers to tie in with.

[Ickx]

Teams have always come and gone. Some survive for longer time but no team is immune from getting lost. To put blame on regulations or cost is silly and uninformed as it has always happened.

[dau]

The only way for Williams to really get back to the top is a tie-up with a manufacturer. 

 

But under the new leadership, they do not really seem to be interested in this? [...]

And i think that's a sensible decision after the BMW thingy. I remember Williams were criticised as being stubborn for not allowing BMW to take over. I was critical of that as well, but in hindsight, they dodged a massive bullet there. When BMW left a few years later, they almost killed Sauber. Manufacturers aren't in F1 to race, it's just a marketing expenditure. They will come when they think it'll be good exposure for the money and they will leave when they underperform, find greener pastures for advertising or are desperate to cut costs. It's obviously tempting to have access to their huge ressources, but if you're dedicated to keeping your team alive, you should stay the hell away from them. Sauber barely survived BMW. Brawn barely survived Honda. Why take that risk for a slim chance of returning to the limelight for one or two years, with a chance of it turning out like McLaren-Honda?

Edited by dau, 07 December 2017 - 10:54.

[hogstar]

Aero wise, they have been exposed since Newey left. The BMW era was a missed opportunity as both side blamed each other, yet both were to blame. BMW engines weren't reliable enough and the chassis wasn't as good as it could have been. Least we forget the misguided 'Walrus' nose. 

 

Force India have proved again that it isn't all about money, it is how you use it. Williams seem to be the only team where seasonal developments either don't improve the car or actually make the car worse, as Massa stated. 

 

Williams needed the return of another of its ex employees, Ross Brawn. He is the only one I think who could of got everything together, because as a team, they seem disjointed. Whether Lowe can change that remains to be seen, but if they are end up with another FW40 next year, they could be back of the grid. 

 

Can somebody get Gordon Murray out of (F1) retirement?

[Jon83]

2021 engine regulations can revive teams like Williams.

 

Unless they become a works team, how is that going to happen?

 

They basically became some kind of Mercedes back-up team a few years ago.

[Boing 2]

Williams were great when they had a guy who was great at raising money and a guy who was a great engineer at the heart of the team in an era when that all that you needed. Nowadays aero genius or massive budgets and resources are needed neither of which they have. To be fair to Clair she made some pretty hard decisions after taking over and has moved the team on, don't forget it wasn't that long ago we were talking about whether Williams would exist in a few years, now we're surprised they aren't higher than 5th. 

 

I agree they never really recovered from Neweys loss, even in the BMW days they had aero deficiencies but the engine made up for it. I also agree that a Honda deal had a risky logic to it but what they really need now is a star driver, they've got Paddy on board a bigger budget then FI and a Merc in the back but they're up against teams with better driver lineups. Williams desperately needs another  Jones/Mansell/Montoya charger who can kick open doors and make things happen on track.

 

I also think they're suffering from the sports move behind a paywall, without manufacturer money all they have is commercial sponsorship and it must be tough raising that when viewing figures are dropping.

[HoldenRT]

Frank Williams stepped down from the board in 2012. Claire was appointed Deputy Team Principal in 2013. Here's Williams WCC positions since the BMW divorce:

 

 

 

Seems post-Frank Williams is doing better than ever since the BMW heyday.

 

It's not like Frank designed the cars himself, the timing in terms of the results and seasons was more to do with the engine advantage they had when the regulations changed, especially the early races.  Gradually.. the advantage has reduced and the chassis has come more into play.. as it always does when regulations are (relatively) stable.  With a Ferrari or Renault engine, it would have been ugly.  Williams need more funding/better designers and preferably manufacturer backing but that's the same for every private team.  It's a struggle that a lot of teams have in the current climate of F1.  For most teams in F1, it's a battle of survival first.. and secondly to aim for top 5 in the WCC.  It's hard to see that changing at the moment.  Unless you are Merc, Ferrari or maybe Redbull.  Everyone else.. the ceiling is very limited.. and it's not really a sport in that respect.  The ironic thing is that if you took away the too biggest teams that want to maintain the monopoly Ferrari and Mercedes.. then the sport would actually become really competitive without ever needing to mutter the words of "spec series".. but it wouldn't feel the same would it?  It feels like those teams need to take part in order to feel like it's the best in the world.. or the most elite competition.  It's strange.

 

The way it currently is.. I feel like someone like Sauber, Force India or Williams.. even if they built their best ever chassis they'd be finishing 3rd or 4th at best.  Most other sports, if this were the case.. you'd refuse to compete in the first place.  But for some reason in F1.. there's still enough reason to be satisfied with that.  Or to be forever chasing something that will most likely never happen.   In other sports.. a team might go 30 years without ever winning the championship, but they know they always had a chance.

 

For Williams.. I don't feel like they are effecient though.  A few years here or there.. but generally no.  But other teams like Force India are pretty effecient.. but still don't have much chance.  If they did, Mercedes wouldn't supply them with engines.  That's the point.  McLaren already had a Merc engine and gave it up for a Honda.. ironically.. it saved Mercedes the chance of having to tell McLaren to find a new engine (once they improved their chassis, which they have seemed to have done in the last 18 months).

 

Even with spec engines, it's hard to imagine Williams building a chassis good enough to win races.  But my main point was.. even if they did.. I still don't think they'd be winning races.  It seems more just about surviving and living to fight for another day.. and then hoping for something (unknown) to change and give them a chance in the future.  Half the teams in the paddock seem to be in that situation.. and in terms of drivers.. even if there were 12 Lewis Hamiltons.. only 2 or 3 of them would be giving the chance to regularly compete for the title.  The rest would be complaining on radio like Alonso does every race.  So it's almost better that there aren't that many top drivers in the field.. because if there was, it'd be worse. 

 

Where as.. in an ideal situation.. there'd be as many top drivers as possible and they'd all be fighting for the title.  It'd make for some epic title fights.  They might have to wait a few years to pay their dues but eventually they'd get a shot.  It's a massive shame when a top driver goes through his whole career and is rated highly but never gets a chance in a top car.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Yes we learn that everytime F1 changes regulations it is the big players that win in the long run, instead of suddenly transforming midfield teams into top teams. 

And before anyone mentions it - yes, Brawn GP. But the circumstances was different with the team that in the end became Mercedes dominant works team. 

So no - I doubt Williams will suddenly become a top team again in 2021 thanks to the new, and so far unknown, regulations by then. But it's theoretically possible of course. 

But after the power politics has hacked through the new regulations, it will still favour big teams with large resources. 

 

 

Unless they become a works team, how is that going to happen?

 

They basically became some kind of Mercedes back-up team a few years ago.

Bigger teams always have the advantage and Williams are not lucrative enough to be a works team right now. That being said Williams' competitiveness depend on 2021 regulations. If the promise of cheaper engine and competitive independent engine materialised, then teams like Williams would only have to worry about chassis and recruiting capable engineering staff. Unlike the past, even teams like RedBull and McLaren aren't sure about their engine supplier in the future so I imagine this time independent engine manufacturer's topic is so serious.

 

When I use the word "revival" for Williams, it doesn't mean fighting for championships, it means being competitive in most of the tracks by having a competitive chassis and PU, not just having the extra horsepower that Mercedes PU has thanks to underperformance of the half of PU manufacturers.

 

Anyway, I believe Williams could have their best chassis in 2018 in hybrid era thanks to having Paddy Lowe and the rest of recent recruitments.

Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 07 December 2017 - 14:34.

[Spillage]

I fear that unless they can partner up with a major manufacturer, as they did during the BMW years, they'll go the way of Tyrrell, Brabham and Lotus.