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2018 Rallying thread (WRC, World RX, ERC, etc)


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#751 noikeee

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 10:04

I'd rate Loeb some way above Ogier, personally. I think Ogier is good don't get me wrong, but you've got a bit of a Hamilton situation I think where his successes from 2013-16 were completely impossible to separate from the dominance of his machinery. Seriously, that Polo, it was streets ahead, fast and bulletproof. Hyundai maybe had comparable speed by the end but the i20 was and still is an absolute tin can compared to the VW. So every year, Ogier. Four titles. It's a classic 'right place right time' scenario that was the making of his career.

I suppose you could say the same about Loeb and Citroen, only in those days you had a really strong, well funded Ford team with a Focus that often actually won the manufacturers title not to mention Subaru and Peugeot in the early days. And Loeb had to go head to head with Gronholm, with Ogier himself, with Hirvonen, with Solberg.

That said, Ogier has (again like Hamilton) more than proved his stripes when his car advantage was taken away. 2016, running order controversy, sweeping the roads most weekends, less wins, still easily champion. Then M-Sport. He's the only worthy champ this year. Neuville stank the place out last third of this season when the pressure was on, like he usually seems to.

Just think if Ogier is maybe an 8.5/10 in every department, Loeb was a 9.

But Ogier wasn't the only guy driving those Polos. He had some pretty serious team-mates and completely blitzed them.
 
I agree Loeb was even better though.


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#752 Lennat

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 10:54

Ogier gave Loeb a proper challenge as his team mate = he is in the same ballpark at least, no question.



#753 BRG

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 19:18

I'd rate Loeb some way above Ogier, personally.

 

You'd get no argument from me on that score.



#754 messy

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 19:33

But Ogier wasn't the only guy driving those Polos. He had some pretty serious team-mates and completely blitzed them.
 
I agree Loeb was even better though.


Agree, but Latvala is your perennial number two and Mikkelsen used to finish well in the Polo and has been completely found out since. I think it's again your Hamilton position really, that if you're undisputed best driver out of your team mates and you have the best car, you're absolutely laughing. Or in Ogier's case, moaning. But still.

Latvala used to outpace Ogier on his day, but his day came like once a year usually in Greece or Finland. Tänak proved increasingly capable of outpacing Ogier last year, but the common thing is that somehow Seb managed to come out ahead. He generally does and that's a massive thing in his favour. I'd love to see a rerun of 2011 to see which of the two is actually better but we'll never know really.

#755 sopa

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 21:21

Wasn't Ogier often quicker than Loeb in 2011, but he was still inexperienced and made more mistakes, thus ending up with less points? I think Ogier should be rated definitely in the same ballpark as Loeb, not below.



#756 BRG

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 17:01

Wasn't Ogier often quicker than Loeb in 2011, but he was still inexperienced and made more mistakes, thus ending up with less points? I think Ogier should be rated definitely in the same ballpark as Loeb, not below.

See my earlier post.  To finish first, you first have to finish. Loeb didn't really make mistakes even as a rookie.



#757 sopa

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 17:05

See my earlier post.  To finish first, you first have to finish. Loeb didn't really make mistakes even as a rookie.

 

I don't think it was always that straightforward. For example in 2009 Loeb ended just 1 point ahead of Hirvonen. Largely because Hirvonen was more consistent that year, albeit slower.



#758 ArnageWRC

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 19:34

And the lack of Tarmac rounds that season......



#759 piszkosfred

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Posted 26 November 2018 - 14:28

The usual Ogier crying:

 

http://classic.autos...t.php/id/140357

 

What he forgets, that those drivers have better start position only on the first day (if it's dry, if wet later positions can be worse). And the regular drivers are more familiar with the car,more tests, probably better and bigger crews.



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#760 Danyy

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Posted 26 November 2018 - 14:50

The usual Ogier crying:

http://classic.autos...t.php/id/140357

What he forgets, that those drivers have better start position only on the first day (if it's dry, if wet later positions can be worse). And the regular drivers are more familiar with the car,more tests, probably better and bigger crews.


If you read that article you will see other drivers in the WRC agreeing. Neuville even says guests should run first on the road. Is he crying too or is it fair trade off for cherry picking rallies that will benefit starting far back in the order?

#761 piszkosfred

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Posted 26 November 2018 - 18:11

If you read that article you will see other drivers in the WRC agreeing. Neuville even says guests should run first on the road. Is he crying too or is it fair trade off for cherry picking rallies that will benefit starting far back in the order?


Neuville should stay on road first. He lost the championship on his own the last 2 years. The wc leader runs first on the road on the first day. That was the rule 20years ago too. Btw, Loeb wasn't even close to lead on the first day. His pace on the 2nd and 3rd gave him the win.

Edited by piszkosfred, 26 November 2018 - 18:19.


#762 Ben1445

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 18:16

Solberg: WRX needs electric switch clarity to keep VW into 2019

https://www.autospor...rity-to-keep-vw

 

Soooo yeah. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) they went with the eWRX launch for 2020, got three manufacturers to say 'yes we will do this' then held out for a fourth needed for world championship status and delayed the introduction of eWRX to 2021. During which time those who said yes start to pull out, with Peugeot directly stating that they were leaving because the eWRX was going on ice. Now they're still dilly dallying about signing off the eWRX rules and it's making VW's involvement uncertain as well. Meanwhile all this time there could have been (and maybe still are) manufacturers waiting in the wings to confirm once it's all rubber stamped. 

 

Indecisive decisiveness at it's best. 



#763 ClubmanGT

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 18:49

Solberg: WRX needs electric switch clarity to keep VW into 2019

https://www.autospor...rity-to-keep-vw

 

Soooo yeah. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) they went with the eWRX launch for 2020, got three manufacturers to say 'yes we will do this' then held out for a fourth needed for world championship status and delayed the introduction of eWRX to 2021. During which time those who said yes start to pull out, with Peugeot directly stating that they were leaving because the eWRX was going on ice. Now they're still dilly dallying about signing off the eWRX rules and it's making VW's involvement uncertain as well. Meanwhile all this time there could have been (and maybe still are) manufacturers waiting in the wings to confirm once it's all rubber stamped. 

 

Indecisive decisiveness at it's best. 

 

 

VW is readying an entry level hero hatch for the electric market and unless WRX gives them an opportunity to market it, they're probably not interested.

 

https://www.autoexpr...-electric-hatch

 

I can see the potential there. 



#764 f1paul

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 19:07

Solberg: WRX needs electric switch clarity to keep VW into 2019

https://www.autospor...rity-to-keep-vw

 

Soooo yeah. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) they went with the eWRX launch for 2020, got three manufacturers to say 'yes we will do this' then held out for a fourth needed for world championship status and delayed the introduction of eWRX to 2021. During which time those who said yes start to pull out, with Peugeot directly stating that they were leaving because the eWRX was going on ice. Now they're still dilly dallying about signing off the eWRX rules and it's making VW's involvement uncertain as well. Meanwhile all this time there could have been (and maybe still are) manufacturers waiting in the wings to confirm once it's all rubber stamped. 

 

Indecisive decisiveness at it's best. 

 

Agree. The delay was a bad choice it looks like. Yes, we get the roaring engines for another year but losing manufacturers isn't great.

 

That said, there was very little manufacturer backing for any teams between 2014-16 and that was fun so it's not all bad if the World RX gets the rules right.



#765 Vielleicht

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 12:03

More WRX frustrations
https://www.autospor...ure-on-world-rx
 

Solberg: "A year ago we talked about World RX and the potential was massive. It was going to be bigger than Formula E, we had manufacturers coming from all over the place to compete in eWRX, all over the world the tracks wanted us, the fans wanted us.


Loeb: "Look at Formula E, the show is not so good, but it has good promotion and it's exciting for the manufacturers. It's not as nice as RX could be."

 



#766 TheGoldenStoffel

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 12:47

I don't think fans really ever want(ed) the eWRX to be honest.



#767 Vielleicht

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 12:54

I do/did.



#768 Ben1445

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 13:03

'What the people want' is actually a very mouldable thing with the right advertising/marketing/leaders - from perfume to politics. 



#769 Ben1445

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 13:41

I have to say reading that article, particularly the quotes from Paul Bellamy ('What more do they want?'  'I don't believe that for a minute'), it doesn't sound like the organisers are at all in touch with what they're in charge of. They have a bit of vision but the execution of that is lacking and it's hurting (e)WRX's potential. 

 

Shame really. Loeb has it right when he says FE has good promotion - like the product or not they've been VERY effective at getting the momentum going. 



#770 BRG

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 20:03

Not sure what planet Solberg is on these days, because that certainly isn't a true story about eWRX here on Earth. 

 

And yes, Loeb has got it right.  FE's biggest strength has been its promotion and marketing which ought to be an example to every other motorsport series in the world.  It IS possible to promote your sport well - you just have to make a real effort.  You know, like Bernie didn't for decades with F1.



#771 Vielleicht

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 20:15

Sounds to me as though Solberg is embellishing a little. But the reason behind him doing that - the feeling of a missed opportunity - seems pretty dead on to me.



#772 Myrvold

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 21:03

I have to say reading that article, particularly the quotes from Paul Bellamy ('What more do they want?'  'I don't believe that for a minute'), it doesn't sound like the organisers are at all in touch with what they're in charge of. They have a bit of vision but the execution of that is lacking and it's hurting (e)WRX's potential. 

 

IMG is not in touch with RX or it's fans, that's for sure.

 

Not sure what planet Solberg is on these days, because that certainly isn't a true story about eWRX here on Earth. 

 

Actually, RX would be an ideal place for it. Short races with much power and instant torque. Certainly more intense and interesting than slower electrical racing classes.



#773 ArnageWRC

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 11:41

Not sure what planet Solberg is on these days, because that certainly isn't a true story about eWRX here on Earth. 

 

And yes, Loeb has got it right.  FE's biggest strength has been its promotion and marketing which ought to be an example to every other motorsport series in the world.  It IS possible to promote your sport well - you just have to make a real effort.  You know, like Bernie didn't for decades with F1.

 

This!! A Promoters job is, to Promote. It's not rocket science. However, so many are rubbish at promoting their series - and then wonder why it's not successful. And they are normally good at selling to PayTV....making money but having too few viewers.  It is something that really frustrates me with many motorsport series. 



#774 BRG

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 20:06

 

Actually, RX would be an ideal place for it. Short races with much power and instant torque. Certainly more intense and interesting than slower electrical racing classes.

Yes, RX is an ideal sport for EVs.  But they have tried to parachute EVs in as the premier class.  What they should have done is bring in a lower level class for electric cars, just as there are classes for small capacity FWD cars.  See if that rings peoples' bells before imposing it as the top WRX championship class.  I don't believe that RX fans are gagging to have EVs replace their snorting madcap supercars.  Given that Solberg used to be called 'Hollywood' for his shows after rally wins, doing donuts whilst standing in the doorway and so on, I am surprised that he wants silent cars.


Edited by BRG, 02 December 2018 - 20:07.


#775 Ben1445

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 20:27

Yes, RX is an ideal sport for EVs.  But they have tried to parachute EVs in as the premier class.  What they should have done is bring in a lower level class for electric cars, just as there are classes for small capacity FWD cars.  See if that rings peoples' bells before imposing it as the top WRX championship class.  I don't believe that RX fans are gagging to have EVs replace their snorting madcap supercars.  Given that Solberg used to be called 'Hollywood' for his shows after rally wins, doing donuts whilst standing in the doorway and so on, I am surprised that he wants silent cars.

For once I am going to tentatively agree. You may be right in that perhaps a 'second tier' with privateers learning the ropes in identical cars like FE season 1 may have smoothed out a transition into a top tier introduction. After that, it would be a simple case of bringing in manufacturers to partner with those teams to elevate it to top tier status. Not sure about using that period to see what the fans think though - introducing it as 'second tier' would set up the scene for how people would view it. It would need to be more of a 'future lab' side show than 'second tier' to give it the fair chance. 

 

At the end of the day I don't think the mistake was in choosing to go EV as the top class. That was the right level of visionary - they've just been unable to follow that through with competent organisation or promotion. 



#776 sopa

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 16:08

I'm not convinced manufacturers would have been interested in developing "second tier" RX cars. If they were going to put in the money for development, they wanted the headlines too.



#777 BRG

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 19:50

Who mentioned manufacturers?  They aren't nededed.  Manufacturer involvement has never been that strong in RX, with most teams building and developing their own cars.  Fielding a small EV would hardly tax teams that have been building RX cars for years.

 

THis is the whole issue with this eRX concept.  it is being imposed top-down and requiring full manufacturer interest with the inevitable shy-rocketing budgets.  That is not a good formula and will lead to failure of the series, just as it has done in every single motorsport series that put all its eggs in the manufacturer basket.  If a team can build up a high powered small capacity turbo engined 4WD car on their own (as they have been doing), then building an electric version would hardly tax them much. 



#778 Ben1445

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 22:02

Who mentioned manufacturers?  They aren't nededed.  Manufacturer involvement has never been that strong in RX, with most teams building and developing their own cars.  Fielding a small EV would hardly tax teams that have been building RX cars for years.

 

THis is the whole issue with this eRX concept.  it is being imposed top-down and requiring full manufacturer interest with the inevitable shy-rocketing budgets.  That is not a good formula and will lead to failure of the series, just as it has done in every single motorsport series that put all its eggs in the manufacturer basket.  If a team can build up a high powered small capacity turbo engined 4WD car on their own (as they have been doing), then building an electric version would hardly tax them much. 

Ah we're back to the 'bah manufactures - the evil bloodsuckers of motorsport' despite them being hugely important and influential in the sport having the status it does. 

 

That first part out of the way, I do agree with the bolded section. They seem to want full commitment from the manufactures from day one, and they just seem unwilling to jump in the deep end for the most part. For comparison, Formula E started with the spec car and what were effectively small, privateer teams. One by one manufactures started to merely partner-up with these little small teams and now there's 9 OEMs building powertrains. Now there's a few more of those partnerships evolving into works partnerships (such as BMW Andretti and DS Techeetah). It's a slower, controlled organic growth. If FE had tried to start by getting in four manufactures outright it would most likely have failed. But also, when did the momentum really kick in for FE? Well, it was after Mercedes and Porsche announced their intent to form entries. Funnily enough, FE is not an accredited World Championship, despite now meeting the criteria to be one (I think it's 5 continents and 4 Manufacturers?). They didn't in their first season and are constantly revisiting wether becoming a World Championship is worth the higher sanctioning fee. Now, WRX is already a World Championship so does not have that luxury of being able to do that. But imposing full on manufacturer involvement from day one in a new ruleset wasn't entirely sensible. 



#779 Myrvold

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 02:19

Funnily enough, FE is not an accredited World Championship, despite now meeting the criteria to be one (I think it's 5 continents and 4 Manufacturers?).

 

3 continents. Only 2 manufacturers (See WTCC 2017, WRC 09,10,11). WEC are hiding behind the GT class I think.

Actually, I think it's rare to see any championship other than F1 driving on 5 of the 6 race-able continents. With FE being an anomaly with joining F1.



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#780 Ben1445

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 08:56

3 continents. Only 2 manufacturers (See WTCC 2017, WRC 09,10,11). WEC are hiding behind the GT class I think.

Actually, I think it's rare to see any championship other than F1 driving on 5 of the 6 race-able continents. With FE being an anomaly with joining F1.

3 (or 4) would make sense - don't know what I was thinking with 5 :lol: .

 

I was sure that early on in FE's history Agag said they couldn't be a world championship because they needed four manufactures. Not sure what that means for eWRX, because it would have tied in with them supposedly having three signed up but delayed because they couldn't convince that fourth one to commit. Would definitely like some clarity on that one. 



#781 Myrvold

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 17:26

3 (or 4) would make sense - don't know what I was thinking with 5 :lol: .

 

I was sure that early on in FE's history Agag said they couldn't be a world championship because they needed four manufactures. Not sure what that means for eWRX, because it would have tied in with them supposedly having three signed up but delayed because they couldn't convince that fourth one to commit. Would definitely like some clarity on that one. 

 

I think that was more down to a wish of having a certain amount of manufacturers involved. Seeing how manufacturer involvement in WRX have been small (Peugeot being the sole manufacturer being fully involved) and how they've had their championship on only three continents. That's not the limit.

 

On the subject of WRX - eWRX, seems like David Evans have had another article that doesn't answer anything. All I can gather from it, is that he likes RX now, and would like to see it become eWRX and keep on with the newfound glitz and glamour, praising Silverstone and so on.

Basically showing one of the main things that's wrong with WRX, they move to tracks that are far from RX tracks, the grip on there is way to high with no proper gravel sections, but "hybrids". This meaning there is little need for a setup compromise, or any sort of difference. In additon the tracks are extremely dull, and just like the tilkedromes, are extremely similar, lacking character. Though, like I've said numerous times, it's probably nice for the big-wigs that come to events to mingle with other big-wigs, showing off something for a company. And the media people who get F1-style facilities and can keep praising the series. Like a proper politician out of touch with the people, the WRX reporters do their job for the series.

 

Take the 2013 ERX calendar, remove the 2 least attended circuits like they seemingly did. Add in 5 more tracks (like they did). 2 in Europe, 3 outside, again, like they did. Maybe they should've gone to Duivelsberg, not Mettet in Belgium, and/or Valkenswaard instead of Franciacorta in Italy, to get more proper-made RX tracks. But they did have a nice recipe there, and the positivity in 2014 were immense.
Then in 2015 they added Hockenheim and Barcelona at the expense of Finland. Granted, RX is not as big as it once were in Finland, but two rounds in Germany is a bit overkill. Latvia in for Italy in 2016 wasn't a bad choice. No changes for 2017, though the feeling of money being thrown in started to get there, and it wasn't as intense as it used to be and the feeling of just 50% of the tracks being proper RX tracks started to grow.
And we have 2018, the removal of one of the most classic tracks, to make room for one of the worst tracks in Silverstone. Hockenheim never was a good RX track, but it had it's moments. Austin was extremely awful, compounded with the typical, modern "white lines, don't count" racing, and tires everywhere.

 

Then, 2019... Removal of Montelegre, Estering takes the number of actual RX tracks down to 3. Hell, Höljes and Loheac. For all we know, Spa-RX might be way better than Mettet, the potential surely are present to make a track with natural barriers, and proper gravel sections. I highly doubt it will be done, but at least the potential are present. I have no doubt it is easier to get the all high and mighty people for a long weekend in Abu Dhabi compared to Maasmechelen, and likewise for the reporters being there. However, without spectators the series will die, and it doesn't help that reporters keep licking IMG and the rest of the crew up the back.

 

Erhm, rant-over I think.



#782 BRG

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 19:03

Ah we're back to the 'bah manufactures - the evil bloodsuckers of motorsport'

Correct.  You may mock all you like and pretend it isn't so, but ALL the evidence shows that when manufacturers pile into a motorsport series, it gives it a short-term boost and then kills it stone dead.  Once the privateers, who are there because they want to go racing, are squeezed out, there is nothing left when - inevitably - all the manufacturers bar the winning one decide that their marketing strategy has changed and no longer includes being beaten in series X.

 

Look at the BTCC in the days of Super 2000.  Lots of manufacturers, budgets going through the roof, privateers unable to compete, series doomed until TOCA saw the writing ont he wall and devised a new set-up where manufacturers couldn't screw it up.  DTM, WEC, WRC, WTCC, F1 - all have been damaged by allowing manufacturers to dominate and worse still, write the rules.  It's going to happen to FE as well in three or four years time.  Put not your trust in manufacturers.  They aren't there because they love the sport.


Edited by BRG, 04 December 2018 - 19:03.


#783 Ben1445

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 19:26

Correct.  You may mock all you like and pretend it isn't so, but ALL the evidence shows that when manufacturers pile into a motorsport series, it gives it a short-term boost and then kills it stone dead.  Once the privateers, who are there because they want to go racing, are squeezed out, there is nothing left when - inevitably - all the manufacturers bar the winning one decide that their marketing strategy has changed and no longer includes being beaten in series X.

 

Look at the BTCC in the days of Super 2000.  Lots of manufacturers, budgets going through the roof, privateers unable to compete, series doomed until TOCA saw the writing ont he wall and devised a new set-up where manufacturers couldn't screw it up.  DTM, WEC, WRC, WTCC, F1 - all have been damaged by allowing manufacturers to dominate and worse still, write the rules.  It's going to happen to FE as well in three or four years time.  Put not your trust in manufacturers.  They aren't there because they love the sport.

Nice lecture. But kind of to the wrong person.

 

My position is that a healthy balance of privateers and manufactures should be maintained where appropriate. Cutting them out is not an answer as much letting them run rampant and taking over isn't either. Any belief to the contrary is ignorant to the reality. 



#784 BRG

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 19:38

Nice lecture.

Thank you.  I thought it came out quite well.



#785 Ben1445

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 19:42

Thank you.  I thought it came out quite well.

It did actually. Very succinct. 

 

I fully understand your point, I just think that manufactures are both good and bad for the sport. Their involvement is needed, but agree it should never be relied upon. 



#786 AustinF1

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 13:49

COTA axed for 2019 as World RX announces revised Calendar: https://twitter.com/share



#787 ClubmanGT

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Posted Yesterday, 18:58

Loeb in (in some capacity), presumably ruling out a full time drive for Paddon. How disappointing. 



#788 Myrvold

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Posted Yesterday, 19:15

Loeb in (in some capacity), presumably ruling out a full time drive for Paddon. How disappointing. 

 

A full time drive for Paddon was ruled out the moment Sordo got announced though.



#789 ClubmanGT

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Posted Yesterday, 22:11

A full time drive for Paddon was ruled out the moment Sordo got announced though.

 

True. Hard to see what more Paddon could have done. I guess tarmac/gravel share with Loeb then? Unsure how Paddon is meant to improve on tarmac if he doesn't get to run on tarmac. I suspect that's what his alternate programme will be focused around this year instead of contesting the NZRC. 



#790 Myrvold

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Posted Today, 01:50

True. Hard to see what more Paddon could have done. I guess tarmac/gravel share with Loeb then? Unsure how Paddon is meant to improve on tarmac if he doesn't get to run on tarmac. I suspect that's what his alternate programme will be focused around this year instead of contesting the NZRC. 

Or no Paddon at all.

 

Hyundai now got Neuville, Mikkelsen, Sordo for 10 rounds - reports about Loeb (not confirmed by Hyundai), and Paddon still waiting to know what he'll be doing in 2019.

Somehow I feel, if Loeb goes to Hyundai, that it will be Neuville and Mikkelsen for all rounds. Sordo for 10, Loeb the rest, and Paddon in WRC2-Pro together with Huttunen.