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#1 dmj

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 08:53

Recently there was a discussion about this pic on a FB group, someone claiming that it was taken in former Yugoslavia, and I strongly suspect that it is not the case.

 

Usually I can find out relatively easy the contents but here I really have no idea about year, venue or cars.

 

If anyone can help I'd really appreciate.

 

I don't own this pic or know about any copyright so if there is any doubt please be free to delete this.

 

0U5dfPg.jpg?1



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#2 Rupertlt1

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 10:45

Formula Junior - is that a Cooper in the centre? I would place it as 1960.

 

Could it be "Circuito Citta' di Reggio Calabria"

 

http://www.the-fastl...a2/FJ60_E54.htm

 

Possibly "Circuito Riviera di Cesenatico" - less likely

 

Is that Carroll Smith in the Cooper? Raced in Italy in 1960.

 

http://www.carrollsm...eginnings2.html

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 28 December 2017 - 11:35.


#3 dmj

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 11:42

My thought was that it has to be older than 1960. but I'm not sure.

There were Formula Junior races in Opatija (Preluk) in 1960., 1961. and 1963. but surroundings don't look right and I never saw such starting place markings at photos of Preluk.



#4 dmj

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 11:45

Formula Junior - is that a Cooper in the centre? I would place it as 1960.

 

Could it be "Circuito Citta' di Reggio Calabria"

 

http://www.the-fastl...a2/FJ60_E54.htm

 

Possibly "Circuito Riviera di Cesenatico" - less likely

 

Is that Carroll Smith in the Cooper? Raced in Italy in 1960.

 

http://www.carrollsm...eginnings2.html

 

RGDS RLT

 

 

It doesn't look like that circuit, according to this video:

 

https://youtu.be/3trt-Wk-H5U



#5 Rupertlt1

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 12:00

I can't find any evidence of a Cooper FJ in Europe, in this company, prior to 1960. RGDS RLT



#6 Rupertlt1

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 12:15

What a brilliant film - we can see a white and blue (USA racing colours) #47 Cooper, which points to Carroll Smith from Oswego, New York.

We know he raced at Cesenatico, but where else? I will see what I can find.

 

RGDS RLT



#7 Rupertlt1

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 12:33

Here is another possibility (are we seeing the entire field of seven cars?)

 

XVII Grand Prix of Naples:

 

https://www.motorspo...and-prix-naples

 

http://www.the-fastl...a2/FJ60_E15.htm

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 28 December 2017 - 13:00.


#8 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 13:10

So I took the Formula 1 Register books of Formula Junior to see if that would lead to anything. After all, a stating number (183) is not so common. But it led to no direct hits. I did find the 1960 "Circuito Citta' di Reggio Calabria". But that is supposed  to have had a 3-2-3 grid, and this one looks very much like a 2-1-2, with not much room for more.

However, I did find a race with hardly any information, but with the reference Yugoslavia intact, and that is the Gran Premio Del Adriatico (Opatija), 17-6-1962. A bit late, but I wouldn't be surprised to see older cars at the start there. It was won by Kurt Ahrens jr. in a Cooper 59, while his  father in a Lotus 22 crashed. Apart from that only Shepherd (Lotus 20) and Calès (Stanguellini) are known to have participated. No proof, but worth investigating.


Edited by Henk Vasmel, 28 December 2017 - 13:16.


#9 Rupertlt1

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 13:18

Henk, Does your book list XVII Grand Prix of Naples, 1960? RGDS RLT



#10 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 13:30

Henk, Does your book list XVII Grand Prix of Naples, 1960? RGDS RLT

If you mean 15-05-1960, it has it as XVIII Gran Premio Di Napoli. 7 known participants, no start numbers or grid. 6 finishers, 1 retirement and a fastest lap



#11 opplock

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 13:57

 

However, I did find a race with hardly any information, but with the reference Yugoslavia intact, and that is the Gran Premio Del Adriatico (Opatija), 17-6-1962. A bit late, but I wouldn't be surprised to see older cars at the start there. It was won by Kurt Ahrens jr. in a Cooper 59, while his  father in a Lotus 22 crashed. Apart from that only Shepherd (Lotus 20) and Calès (Stanguellini) are known to have participated. No proof, but worth investigating.

 

None of the cars in the photo resemble a Lotus. Predominately front engined so more likely to be 1960 than 62. 



#12 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 14:02

None of the cars in the photo resemble a Lotus. Predominately front engined so more likely to be 1960 than 62. 

I agree. There were more races at Opatija than the F1R book shows.



#13 dmj

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 14:17

Now I got source confirmation, pic is from Moto Revija magazine, 1971., showcasing 30 years of Croatian automobile club. There are other pics, non-motorsport related.

 

Low angle of photographer probably is the main reason why I thought it is not Preluk/Opatija circuit, it has to be.

 

FJ races were held there from 1960. so I asked two local motorsport historians, hopefully one will know the race numbers and details.



#14 EDWARD FITZGERALD

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 18:07

Kurt Aherns Junior is alive and well , he is on Facebook worth a try

#15 D-Type

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 18:46

Do the race numbers offer any clue?  I believe Germany had a system where every driver was allocated the same number for the entire year without any duplications, hence the high numbers on some cars.  Did any other country, eg Italy, have a similar system?



#16 LittleChris

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 22:55

Looks like Preluk to me after going on Google streetview



#17 RacingCompagniet

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 08:34

The Cooper in the middle of the Picture looks very much like a T59 (the "outrigger" at the back, which was supposed to hold an anti-roll bar, gives it away) which means it is a 1962 (or later) event.



#18 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 11:14

Do the race numbers offer any clue?  I believe Germany had a system where every driver was allocated the same number for the entire year without any duplications, hence the high numbers on some cars.  Did any other country, eg Italy, have a similar system?

Too many races have no start numbers listed. Number (183) is mentioned only once, I think, and that is an American race. That race also has no number ending in (.75), so definitely not this one.



#19 RAP

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 19:36

I think it is very likely that this is Opatija 9 July 1961. The cars fit for that year - the white car in the centre and the dark one on the left of the front row look like 1961 Cooper T56.

This is a race that we (Formula One Register) have almost no information about in our records. 

I can confirm what Henk said - the only 183 FJ cars that appear in our European records are Peter Anders Gemini 2 Silverstone 17.9.60 and Helmut Zimmer Dresden 5.7.59 and it is clearly neither of these.

 

It is unlikely to be Italy as they mostly used standard numbers in the even number range and all German races are fully documented.

 

If anyone can come up with any other information we'd certainly be pleased to see it.

Richard Page

www.formulaoneregister.com



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#20 RacingCompagniet

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 20:42

I can agree with Richard.  The Coopers could be the 1961 T56 rather than the 1962 T59, which I suggested.  The T56 also had the outriggers, and they actually look too "fat" to be of the T59 type.



#21 Graham Clayton

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 21:37

It is frustrating that there is no road/traffic sign or advertising hoarding visible that might give an idea of the language of the country where the photo was taken.



#22 Rupertlt1

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 23:59

1961 Cooper T-56 FJ: "FJ/17/61 was delivered in 1961 to Andre Liekens of Belgium. It was raced nationally and internationally by Andre Liekens during the 1961 and 1962 season, including Portoroza, Yugoslavia (2nd place) and Paris, France (11th place), Vienna, Austria, and Chimay, Belgium (10th place)."

 

See also Rolf Markl:

 

http://www.the-fastl...a2/FJ61_E27.htm

 

Enrico Agostini, Cooper-Lancia, is another person of interest.

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 30 December 2017 - 04:02.


#23 Peter Morley

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 10:16

Offset bodywork of 183 looks like a Lola Mark 2.



#24 LittleChris

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 16:06

It is frustrating that there is no road/traffic sign or advertising hoarding visible that might give an idea of the language of the country where the photo was taken.

Worse still there's no track map I can find of Portoroza. The town itself has been " streetviewed" by Google so a  map should enable us to easily work out whether the picture was from there or not.  I've looked for a map of this circuit in the past along with a decent one of Skofja Loka but no joy so far :well: 



#25 Charlieman

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 16:47

The painted grid markings on the road look like they are laid out for notes rather than cars. The car lineup seems a little ad hoc to me.



#26 Rupertlt1

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 19:24

Offset bodywork of 183 looks like a Lola Mark 2.

 

The book Formula Junior by Luigi Orsini makes mention of a one-off "Fiat-Lola-Stanguellini del <<Fitzwilliam Racing Team>> destinate a May, Bordeu e John Love."

 

RGDS RLT 



#27 Hati

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Posted 30 December 2017 - 20:55

I have no idea of where that picture if from but could the two persons in right with armbands give a clue?



#28 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 00:35

The pic is definitely the ultra-dangerous Opatija circuit...what event I have no idea other than an FJ around 1960

 

tPEidHf.jpg

 

ST :wave:



#29 robjohn

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 05:34

The car on the left with the high rear bodywork may be a Stanguellini.

Robin B



#30 Duc-Man

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 16:16

The pic is definitely the ultra-dangerous Opatija circuit...what event I have no idea other than an FJ around 1960

 

tPEidHf.jpg

 

ST :wave:

Sure?

The perspective on the straight is the same but the background looks completely different.

 

Edited to add, that I also checked on google street view.


Edited by Duc-Man, 31 December 2017 - 16:24.


#31 LittleChris

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 16:46

Sure?

The perspective on the straight is the same but the background looks completely different.

 

Edited to add, that I also checked on google street view.

I agree. Also the house and wall on the outside of the first corner at Preluk were there prior to the 60's in photo's I've seen but don't seem to be there in the mystery photo.



#32 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 16:53

@ Duc-Man...yes positive, that's the start/finish line.  Backgrounds tend to look completely different 50-odd years later.  :rolleyes:  AAMOI there were FJ races from '61 thro' '63 after which the races were run to the new F3.  Winners were:

 

1960... Formula Junior Sep Liebele (A) Stanguellini 117.65kph
1961... Formula Junior Mario Zanarotti (I) Stanguellini 124.8kph
1962... raced, but can't find info
1963... Formula Junior Kurt Ahrens () Cooper 142.29kph

1964... Formula 3 1st heat Roman Dirschl (D) Lotus, 2nd Heat Hans Byczkowski (DDR) Wartburg
1965... Formula 3 Manfred Mohr (D) Brabham 139.05kph
1966... Formula 3* Patrick Dal Bo (F) Brabham 95.25kph (cancelled after 5 out of scheduled 12 laps due to heavy rain)
1967... Formula 3 David Walker (AUS) Cosworth
1968... Formula 3 Manfred Mohr (D) Tecno 149.169kph

 

 ST :wave:



#33 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 16:58

Drive it in GT2 if you want...artistic licence on trackside houses! :-) https://www.youtube....3&v=E6NmtsqG5Ng

 

ST



#34 Duc-Man

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 15:43

39452474591_fbfc3870d9_n.jpg

This is a little topographic map of Preluk and it does not fit to the old photo.

I know landscapes change due to the growth of trees. I took pictures to compare old and now myself.

The elevation lines just don't fit at all. The hill you look at on the street view image should go to 0 elevation about half way between the little cross and the street name of the (supposed) track on the other side of the bay.

Now I remember an other photo that might have been posted here from a different race at around the same time frame that looked very similar.

That tured out to be from a race at the outskirts of Aachen.



#35 Michael Ferner

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:18

Doesn't look at all like Opatija, the way I remember the place from motorcycle racing in the seventies. And I'm 99 % certain that's not Germany, either. Trust me, I live here!  ;)

#36 JtP2

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 11:53

The mechanic on the right beside 183 looks dressed typical Italian of the period.



#37 Rupertlt1

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 13:48

If we are back in Italy:

 

Gran Premio di Napoli, 15 May 1960

Formula Junior – 20 laps – 50 Km. – Very hot

 

1st: Antonio Maglione (De Sanctis-Fiat) – 30 min. 05.8 sec. – 99.675 k.p.h.

2nd: "Jean Blanc" (Cooper-D.K.W.) – 30 min. 18.4 sec.

3rd: Angelo Sbordone (Stanguellini-Fiat) – 31 min. 00.5 sec.

4th: Raffaele Fiordelisi (Taraschi-Fiat) – 31 min. 43.2 sec.

5th: Romano Orsola (Stanguellini-Fiat-Bardahl)

At one lap 6th: Giancarlo Presciutti (Taraschi-Fiat)

At six laps 7th: Enzo Liguori (Taraschi-Fiat)

Fastest lap: "Jean Blanc" (Cooper), in 1 min. 28.4 sec. – 101.807 k.p.h.

 

Only seven entered.

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 03 January 2018 - 13:51.


#38 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 17:57

Post in haste...regret at leisure! :blush:  Yes, Rupert has got it...temporary road circuit Parco Posillipo, Naples  :up:   This explains the apparent loop ringed in red on the original pic which certainly rules out Preluk but shows up well on the circuit map of the Naples course, being anti-clock.

 

1) Odd loop

orupev.jpg

 

2)  Parco Posillipo short circuit 1961-2

 

b52t0i.jpg

 

3) Start line...corresponds well with OP

 

21cxavq.jpg

 

ST :wave:



#39 Duc-Man

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 17:54

Doesn't look at all like Opatija, the way I remember the place from motorcycle racing in the seventies. And I'm 99 % certain that's not Germany, either. Trust me, I live here!  ;)

 

Since the mystery is solved this is why I came up with Aachen

I asked about the Aachen track in the Track Maps topic and uechtel posted a link of a track map.

Checking on google maps, I think the topography at Start/finish is similar but, like the map showes, the grid drove the other direction.

http://www.silhouet....lux/aachen.html

I thought it was driven counterclockwise.



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#40 LittleChris

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 22:54

I must admit I don't think it's either Posillipo or Preluk.

 

If you go on streetview in Posillipo  and stand on the start straight ( Viale Virgillo ) and look toward the first corner ( Via Tito Lucrezio Caro ) , there are no hills to be seen in the background. 

 

Something says to me it's Portoroza as the hilly environment there is pretty similar to the photo though without a circuit map I can't place where it might be though having spent a while looking I've found a couple of possibilities.

 

Regarding Aachen, it was raced clockwise but I think it only lasted for a year or so at the end of the 40's. Some footage below .



#41 Rupertlt1

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 23:18

I remain open minded - the case for Posillipo is corroborated by DSJ, as we know there were only seven entries due to another race at Monza the same day.

Are we persuaded that another event had similar poor support? Possibly there is a horde of extra cars behind the cameraman?

 

We still need to identify the individual cars?

 

RGDS RLT



#42 dmj

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 07:49

I asked the main authority on ex-Yugoslavian races, Mr. Nebojsa Djordjevic and he confirmed that it is 1961. Formula Junior race at Preluk.

Car Nr. 183 is Stanguellini of Italian driver Antonio Parere.

I asked him for further information about the race.

 

As picture is published in Moto Revija back in 1975 in a pictorial celebrating 30 years of AMSJ and AMSH (then-current Yugoslavian and Croatian automobile clubs) I really tend to believe it has to be Preluk. If a "fake" shot was smuggled it makes no sense to be from some obscure Italian or German race, it would be some familiar and better covered race. Why on Earth would AMSH and Moto Revija have in its photo archives a shot from Aachen or Napoli?

 

Earliest footage I could find dates from 1969.and it looks alike enough, so that we can believe that doubts arose purely from different angle.

https://youtu.be/Ds3DyiIWfaY



#43 Rupertlt1

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 10:44

I asked the main authority on ex-Yugoslavian races, Mr. Nebojsa Djordjevic and he confirmed that it is 1961. Formula Junior race at Preluk.

Car Nr. 183 is Stanguellini of Italian driver Antonio Parere.

I asked him for further information about the race.

 

So we also have the winner from 1961 (from post #32): Mario Zanarotti (I) Stanguellini 124.8kph

 

(Parere ran 7th in heat two at the Monza Lottery, 29 June 1961, 13th in final; a Gastone Zanarotti also appeared, 12th in final.)

 

What are the other cars? I am particularly intrigued by the car at the back of the grid, #?75, maybe #15 judging by the marking on the road?

 

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 05 January 2018 - 12:02.


#44 Duc-Man

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 12:54

bcc2ec5a-a227-46e9-904f-57d24955525e_l.j

 

Opatija%20GP%201969%20250cc%20Kel%20Carr

 

Is this Preluk? Yes? Does the background landscape fit to the photo in the opening post?


 

 

0U5dfPg.jpg?1

 

 

 

If a "fake" shot was smuggled it makes no sense to be from some obscure Italian or German race, it would be some familiar and better covered race. Why on Earth would AMSH and Moto Revija have in its photo archives a shot from Aachen or Napoli?

 

 

 

 

I suggested it COULD be Aachen because of the similar landscape but I wasn't aware that the start/finish straight was run in the opposite direction. I did NOT say it IS Aachen.

 

How the 'fake' photo got into their archives? It propably wasn't from their archive at all...

Unless it is a professional photographer who publishes a book with his own photos, authors and editors search for photos to illustrate a book. the photo was possibly bought from somebody who had it mislabeled. And nobody proof read it or noticed the mistake for 42 years.

 

BTW: the races in Aachen or Napoli might be as obscure to you as Preluk is to other people.


Edited by Duc-Man, 05 January 2018 - 12:58.


#45 Michael Ferner

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 13:29

I'll say it again, there's no way in the world I can see this being Opatija/Preluk, it's just totally different. Also, stop searching for races with seven starters - can't you see that there are two cars in the fifth row, so that with a 2-1-2 grid it would be eight starters? There has to be an eighth car obscured by the mechanic and/or the crowd!!!

#46 Rupertlt1

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 14:08

In which case it is not Napoli, 1960. RGDS RLT



#47 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 18:53

Hmm, we seem to be going round in circles! :rotfl:   Taking Opatija first the topography looks right apart from the large apartment block on the outside of the left-hander and the apparent downhill loop cutting back where the quayside ought to be.  Also the gradients don't tie in with the original circuit map.  However, the earliest Google aerial photo available (1945) shows it was not there then and later pics show it (or a replacement) was being built around 2007...which, of course doesn't tie in with the bike race finish pic just posted by Duc-Man although the building appears to have no roof. :well:  While as D-M says the Croatian connection comes from non-motorsport journalism it's pretty inconceivable that they would have trawled through loads of early 60s FJ street-circuit pics which, as we have found out, are pretty rare!

As far as Posillipo is concerned, in spite of my 'retraction' this cannot be the venue.  There are no mountains or hills beyond the end of the main straight (Viale Virgilio).  I'm sticking with Opatija...for the moment!! :lol:   Some race numbers would be a considerable help.

 

ST :wave:



#48 Sebastian Tombs

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 23:36

Turns out high race numbers were not at all unusual in FJ in the early sixties...there were many races with car race numbers over 100 and even a few with numbers over 200.  Common practice really, I've often had to put a '1' in front of my fixed number from an alternative championship to keep my luck numbers  '8' or '88' in another series or one-off :blush:.  Check out this website with some rather lovely pics: http://mydadsphotos..../monaco1962_fj/

As far as pics are concerned these two of Opatija in the mid sixties have come to light to further muddy the waters!

 

nnwe4j.jpg

 

55plkm.jpg

 

ST :wave:



#49 nexfast

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 09:50

A little bit off-topic but I found this site

 

http://www.formula1-...net/preluk.html

 

which is written by a guy born in Rijeka and has a few more photos of the circuit (though really none clarify the enigma).



#50 Rupertlt1

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 10:31

This from 1962 - see http://www.gdecarli....ers, FJ, F3.pdf

 

Budapest Nagy Dij (H) Ferihegy (May 6) Curt Lincoln (own Cooper / BMC [= Austin])
Magyar Nagy Dij (H) Budapest-Ferihegy (Jun 10) Kurt Ahrens jr (own Cooper / Ford-Cosworth)
Portoroz (YU) (Jun 17) Kurt Ahrens (own Lotus / Ford-Cosworth)
Veliku Nagradu Jadrana (YU) Opatija (Jun 24) Kurt Ahrens (own Lotus / Ford-Cosworth)
Velká Cena Ceskoslovenská (CS) Brno (Aug 26) Kurt Ahrens jr (own Cooper / Ford-Cosworth)

 

If Opatija looks doubtful do we have any pics of Portoroz?

 

1961:

Portoroz (YU) (Jun 11) Rolf Markl (Vienne Cooper / Ford-Superspeed) 

 

See #40: https://www.formel3g...fotos-1961.html

 

Is he the dark car on the pole? Note light coloured helmet.

 

http://www.the-fastl...a2/FJ61_E27.htm

 

Note also: "Car Nr. 183 is Stanguellini of Italian driver Antonio Parere."

 

Note also André Liekens raced a light-coloured Cooper, see #15, not a match with the car visible, but could be our missing car at right:

https://www.formel3g...fotos-1960.html

RGDS RLT


Edited by Rupertlt1, 06 January 2018 - 12:05.