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1934 JCC International Trophy - Brooklands


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#1 cabianca

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 23:33

Luigi Chinetti was the only Continental in this race. He was a DNF. Does anyone have any idea of what he drove.

Many thanks,

 



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#2 Brian Lear

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 05:24

Chinetti drove a Alfa Romeo of 2336cc.

The reason for his DNF was a broken back axle.

Source: Motor Sport June 1934 p353

 

Brian Lear

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#3 plannerpower

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 05:56

An engine capacity of 2336cc suggests that the car was an 8C-2300, the biposto "Monza".

 

These cars first raced in 1931; for 1932 their engine capacity was increased to 2600cc but the Type B-2600, the monoposto, was introduced later in 1932.



#4 Tim Murray

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 06:24

In his Brooklands history Bill Boddy refers to the car as one of four “2.3” Alfa Romeos entered for the race.

#5 dgs

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 08:06

In his Brooklands history Bill Boddy refers to the car as one of four “2.3” Alfa Romeos entered for the race.

 

In his Brooklands history Bill Boddy refers to the car as one of four “2.3” Alfa Romeos entered for the race.

The four entries were:

No 8: Robin Grant/Rex Munday, retired

No 9: Luigi Chinetti, retired

No 10: John Cobb, 7th

No 11: Kaye Don, 6th

All driving Alfa Romeo 8C-2300 cars



#6 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 08:36

The race preview in The Times mentions a three-car Chinetti-led team (as with many Brooklands races there were minor prizes for team finishes etc). Other drivers not named, but presumably Cobb and Don?



#7 Michael Ferner

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 09:14

An engine capacity of 2336cc suggests that the car was an 8C-2300, the biposto "Monza".
 
These cars first raced in 1931; for 1932 their engine capacity was increased to 2600cc but the Type B-2600, the monoposto, was introduced later in 1932.


Technically, not a "Monza", that was the GP version. Surely, this was a sports car!?

#8 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 18:26

Don't confuse the Tipo B with the 8C2300, not even in 2.6 litre form. They are completely different animals. Even the engines have different sizes: 8C2300 (2.6) is 8-2557 C. Tipo B (2.6) is 8-2654 C. Also, 8C2600's don't exist. They are still 8C2300's, even with 2.6 engines. But it does help when they are described incorrectly, which makes it easier to find out about the engine used.

 

The four Alfa's at the International Trophy were 3 Monza's and one Le Mans. The last one, for Grant and Munday even had a British registration (GN6076).

This 8C2300 was Ch.Nr. 2111005

John Cobb had Ch.Nr. 2211130

Kay Don had Ch.Nr. 2211134

Unfortunately, Chinetti's Ch,Nr. is not known (to me).

 

Most of this info must have been distilled from Simon Moore's 8C2300 book.



#9 cabianca

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 21:40

The 3 car Chinetti team may well have been a thrown together situation to take advantage of team prize money. However, in the entry list published by The Motor:

Grant entered under his name

Cobb entered under his.

Don entered under his

Chinetti's entrant was Scuderia Abecassis. It was run by Portuguese Frederico Abecassis. He was cousin to the better known George Abecassis and did not drive himself. F. Abecassis owned a biplace Monza in 1934 and I am assuming it was the car Chinetti drove. It was 2211135.

Simon does not, however, mention this race in the car's history.

Until proof to the contrary, I'm saying 2211135.



#10 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 22:10

Yes, the teams were often ad hoc arrangements between private entrants using similar cars. The team prize in this case went to Earl Howe's - himself, Tim Rose-Richards and Aubrey Esson Scott - all in Bugattis. They may have been the only trio to finish out of seven teams entered; in addition to the Howe and Chinetti teams there were others in the name of Kaye Don, George Eyston, George Manby-Colegrave, Frank Ashby and A Spottiswood. It appears Kaye Don might have a member of the three-car team in his name, since their overall result (Don 6th, Dodson 8th, Black 9th - total 23) would have been worse than Howe's team (Rose-Richards 3rd, Howe 5th, Esson Scott 12th - total 20). However, both Dodson and Black were driving small MGs entered by Don, so a third MG may have retired ...



#11 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 01:10

The 3 car Chinetti team may well have been a thrown together situation to take advantage of team prize money. However, in the entry list published by The Motor:

Grant entered under his name

Cobb entered under his.

Don entered under his

Chinetti's entrant was Scuderia Abecassis. It was run by Portuguese Frederico Abecassis. He was cousin to the better known George Abecassis and did not drive himself. F. Abecassis owned a biplace Monza in 1934 and I am assuming it was the car Chinetti drove. It was 2211135.

Simon does not, however, mention this race in the car's history.

Until proof to the contrary, I'm saying 2211135.

 

This one?

 

https://barchetta.me...3202&rd=1964532

 

Wow.

 

Vince H.



#12 Michael Ferner

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 08:30

Don't confuse the Tipo B with the 8C2300, not even in 2.6 litre form. They are completely different animals. Even the engines have different sizes: 8C2300 (2.6) is 8-2557 C. Tipo B (2.6) is 8-2654 C. Also, 8C2600's don't exist. They are still 8C2300's, even with 2.6 engines. But it does help when they are described incorrectly, which makes it easier to find out about the engine used.
 
The four Alfa's at the International Trophy were 3 Monza's and one Le Mans. The last one, for Grant and Munday even had a British registration (GN6076).
This 8C2300 was Ch.Nr. 2111005
John Cobb had Ch.Nr. 2211130
Kay Don had Ch.Nr. 2211134
Unfortunately, Chinetti's Ch,Nr. is not known (to me).
 
Most of this info must have been distilled from Simon Moore's 8C2300 book.


There's a tendency today, to call every 2.3 Alfa a "Monza", but that's technically and historically not correct. Originally, the 8C was a sports car, and came in two versions: the lwb "Le Mans", and the swb "Mille Miglia" (if I have that correct - sports cars are not my forte). The 8C "Grand Prix", or "Monza", had a shorter chassis still, and some modifications to the brakes and springing, plus a different body and even an improved engine (bigger valves, I think). There were only a very few true Monzas built, less than a dozen if I recall correctly, and I doubt very much any of them ever ran at Brooklands (without checking my records, though). Surely, the car in question was not a Monza, then.

#13 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 19:12

There's a tendency today, to call every 2.3 Alfa a "Monza", but that's technically and historically not correct. Originally, the 8C was a sports car, and came in two versions: the lwb "Le Mans", and the swb "Mille Miglia" (if I have that correct - sports cars are not my forte). The 8C "Grand Prix", or "Monza", had a shorter chassis still, and some modifications to the brakes and springing, plus a different body and even an improved engine (bigger valves, I think). There were only a very few true Monzas built, less than a dozen if I recall correctly, and I doubt very much any of them ever ran at Brooklands (without checking my records, though). Surely, the car in question was not a Monza, then.

So I have checked Simon  Moore's 8C2300 book again, just to make sure. While 2111005 is definitely a Le Mans, the other cars, 2211130, 2211134 and 2211135 are all described as Monza's. Now we are not sure if the 3rd car was 2211135, but definitely 2 and presumably 3 Monza's raced at Brooklands.

The book lists around 190 chassis numbers. A quick check shows that around 30 are described as Monza, the majority being LWB and SWB. plus several unknown, unlikely to be Monza's 



#14 Michael Ferner

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 21:57

I think you will find that this is a case of "... of the ten cars originally built, today only two dozen are known to still exist..."  ;)

#15 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 22:13

I think you will find that this is a case of "... of the ten cars originally built, today only two dozen are known to still exist..."  ;)

So you consider Simon Moore's work as amateurish?



#16 Michael Ferner

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 22:37

I don't know Simon Moore's work. But I know that Peter Hull, citing from "official Alfa records", gave a production number of ten for original Monzas, and I have seen this number confirmed by otherwise competent Alfa men. There is, however, apparently no doubt that some sports cars were rebuilt as Monzas in period, particularly by Ferrari, it seems. Not knowing the extent of these rebuilds, I am reluctant to call these cars "true Monzas". In any case, my original post was a rebuttal of post #3 which seemed to suggest that every 2.3 Alfa is a Monza, when in reality only between 5 % (Hull, Ferner) and 15 % (Moore, Vasmel) were. Let's not get lost in details. :)

#17 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 22:51

Many cars in the book are described as LWB or SWB, now rebuilt as Monza's. I have not counted these as original Monza's of course. I only consider what the cars were in period.

Moore supplies for every car what it originally was, and not just totals. So, if I had the time (maybe in the weekend) I could make a statistic.

You also forgot to mention the Fusi book, which tends to side with the 5% (or is the source for these numbers).



#18 fivestar

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 23:51

I have just looked at Angela Cherrett's book Alfa Romeo Modello 8c 2300 and for some reason there is no 2111034 listed?

2111030 is listed with an Aperta 2 seater bodywork as are 029,031. Could this be another name for the Monza style bodywork?

There are in total 19 cars listed with this bodywork the first 2111007 in July 1931 the last 32SF in April 1934.


Edited by fivestar, 16 January 2018 - 23:54.


#19 Michael Ferner

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 11:14

Many cars in the book are described as LWB or SWB, now rebuilt as Monza's. I have not counted these as original Monza's of course. I only consider what the cars were in period.
Moore supplies for every car what it originally was, and not just totals. So, if I had the time (maybe in the weekend) I could make a statistic.
You also forgot to mention the Fusi book, which tends to side with the 5% (or is the source for these numbers).


That would be great! I don't really know the Moore book(s), and what they contain - I'm only interested in period history of racing cars, so I wasn't overly keen on the heftily-priced books when I suspect they contain little that is of real value to me. It would be good to get a glimpse of what the info is like, maybe I'll have to reconsider. :)

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#20 Michael Ferner

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 13:49

Having done a little web search on Moore/Alfa, I decided to plunge in at the deep end, and have ordered The Magnificent Monopostos, since this is about race cars only, and I am planning on doing something similar on Miller race cars anyway, so this could be a useful guide (in addition to providing lots of information, of course). I need to spend more money on books, anyway! :)

#21 cabianca

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 17:30

Since my original inquiry, here are my findings:

 

 

2211135 cannot be positively identified as the Int’l Trophy car in 1934

The serial # of the Chinetti car at the IT is thus still not known

The Chinetti car was a biposto 8C 2300 Monza open wheel car owned by Frederico Abecassis.

The mention of a three car Chinetti team in a race preview story is not correct, since all Alfa drivers, with the exception of Chinetti, entered under their own names.

However, it is likely that Chinetti, Don and Cobb entered as a team to take advantage of a team prize that carried a small financial stipend.

​Chinetti's Alfa made only one lap. They did not win the team prize.

 



#22 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 22:24

As a brief compilation of the cars in Simon Moore’s “The Legendary 2.3” we have 196 entities, of which one is a bis number, 5 are SF numbers, so strictly Ferrari’s to Alfa Romeo design and not Alfa Romeo’s. Furthermore 5 numbers are listed but may never have been built. In addition to that, there are 47 entities defined which cannot be attributed to a chassis number yet.

 

Cars are divided in Series 1, 2 and 3.

 

Corse models initially had the same wheelbase as the SWB cars. Later that was reduced. Probably most Monza’s had this reduced wheelbase

 

5 cars may not have existed, 3 series 1 and 2 series 2

 

26 cars are listed as unknown. 4 Series 1, 12 Series 2 and 10 Series 3

 

One of the originally unknown series 2 cars is now a Monza. 14 cars in total are listed as Monza’s now, which were originally something else.

 

7 cars are listed with original bodywork, but without wheelbase info. Probably 3 or 4 SWB and 4 or 3 LWB. One of them is now a Monza

 

1 car in the SF series has been built on a 6C1750 chassis with an 8C engine.

 

The rest is better documented. 66 LWB cars, 46 SWB and 45 Monza’s (this number surprises even me).

 

Of the 66 LWB cars, 7 are now shortened.

 

12 are series 1 cars, 30 are series 2 and 24 are series 3

 

5 Series 2 cars are now Monza’s and only 1 series 3 car

 

Of the SWB cars, 18 are series 1, 22 are series 2 and 5 are series 3. The remaining one is the bis number, a rebuilt SWB car with the same number as the previous LWB car (2nd series).

 

1 Series 1 car is now a Monza, 2 have several Monza parts, but are not real Monza’s. 2 series 2 cars are now Monza’s

 

So now we go to the 45 cars listed as Monza’s

 

4 of them are the SF numbered Ferrari cars

 

13 Series 1 cars are listed, 21 Series 2 and 7 series 3

 

Among the series 1 cars, the very first one must have had the SWB’s wheelbase, 1 was a Spider on a Monza Wheelbase, one was later modified to a single seater, 3 have also been seen with Spider bodies and 2 cars are listed as “Probable”

 

Among the series 2 cars one is listed as a Spider, one as modified to a single seater, 2 temporarily had a spider body but reverted to Monza’s later, 1 has originally been built as a Spider and 1 car was originally road equipped.

 

Among the series 3 cars no further remarks

 

Since most cars, most definitely the Monza’s, are shown on pictures, with a history that appears to be well researched, I do not consider this to be too far from the truth, although new information might (and will) appear in the future that changes this list a bit.

 

The identification of the cars is not mine, but Simon Moore’s. The only thing I have added is counting the cars.

 

If I knew how to post a table, I could show the Excel list I used to make this compilation, so everyone can check for him/herself.



#23 fivestar

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 22:41

As a brief compilation of the cars in Simon Moore’s “The Legendary 2.3” we have 196 entities, of which one is a bis number, 5 are SF numbers, so strictly Ferrari’s to Alfa Romeo design and not Alfa Romeo’s. Furthermore 5 numbers are listed but may never have been built. In addition to that, there are 47 entities defined which cannot be attributed to a chassis number yet.

 

Cars are divided in Series 1, 2 and 3.

 

Corse models initially had the same wheelbase as the SWB cars. Later that was reduced. Probably most Monza’s had this reduced wheelbase

 

5 cars may not have existed, 3 series 1 and 2 series 2

 

26 cars are listed as unknown. 4 Series 1, 12 Series 2 and 10 Series 3

 

One of the originally unknown series 2 cars is now a Monza. 14 cars in total are listed as Monza’s now, which were originally something else.

 

7 cars are listed with original bodywork, but without wheelbase info. Probably 3 or 4 SWB and 4 or 3 LWB. One of them is now a Monza

 

1 car in the SF series has been built on a 6C1750 chassis with an 8C engine.

 

The rest is better documented. 66 LWB cars, 46 SWB and 45 Monza’s (this number surprises even me).

 

Of the 66 LWB cars, 7 are now shortened.

 

12 are series 1 cars, 30 are series 2 and 24 are series 3

 

5 Series 2 cars are now Monza’s and only 1 series 3 car

 

Of the SWB cars, 18 are series 1, 22 are series 2 and 5 are series 3. The remaining one is the bis number, a rebuilt SWB car with the same number as the previous LWB car (2nd series).

 

1 Series 1 car is now a Monza, 2 have several Monza parts, but are not real Monza’s. 2 series 2 cars are now Monza’s

 

So now we go to the 45 cars listed as Monza’s

 

4 of them are the SF numbered Ferrari cars

 

13 Series 1 cars are listed, 21 Series 2 and 7 series 3

 

Among the series 1 cars, the very first one must have had the SWB’s wheelbase, 1 was a Spider on a Monza Wheelbase, one was later modified to a single seater, 3 have also been seen with Spider bodies and 2 cars are listed as “Probable”

 

Among the series 2 cars one is listed as a Spider, one as modified to a single seater, 2 temporarily had a spider body but reverted to Monza’s later, 1 has originally been built as a Spider and 1 car was originally road equipped.

 

Among the series 3 cars no further remarks

 

Since most cars, most definitely the Monza’s, are shown on pictures, with a history that appears to be well researched, I do not consider this to be too far from the truth, although new information might (and will) appear in the future that changes this list a bit.

 

The identification of the cars is not mine, but Simon Moore’s. The only thing I have added is counting the cars.

 

If I knew how to post a table, I could show the Excel list I used to make this compilation, so everyone can check for him/herself.

According to Cherret's book there were 5 SF numbered cars, all with Aperta 2 seater bodies, being 24,25,28,30 & 32.



#24 Henk Vasmel

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 23:08

According to Cherret's book there were 5 SF numbered cars, all with Aperta 2 seater bodies, being 24,25,28,30 & 32.

Indeed. 24 was the 6C1750 chassis with a 8C2300 engine, therefor counting as an 8C, the other 4 are the SF Monza's



#25 fivestar

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 03:23

Indeed. 24 was the 6C1750 chassis with a 8C2300 engine, therefor counting as an 8C, the other 4 are the SF Monza's

Thanks Henk, do you know what is the Aperta bodywork? Was it a coachbuilder or style?



#26 Tim Murray

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 06:58

Does it not just indicate an open two-seater? ‘Aperta’ means ‘open’ in Italian.

#27 Michael Ferner

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 08:28

Many thanks, Henk, for the thorough research! Yes, some surprising numbers. I shall reread the Hull book to make sense of what he's written. Nobody expects a clear-cut answer with these questions, I suppose, but this is a bit disconcerting. :well:

About "Aperta", it does seem to indicate open-wheel bodywork, i.e. no fenders/mudguards (most, if not all 2.3 Alfas were open-cockpit, weren't they?). So, yes, perhaps another (official?) name for the "Monza" bodywork. But, as a reminder, the bodywork alone doth not a Monza make!  ;)

Edited by Michael Ferner, 18 January 2018 - 08:28.


#28 D-Type

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 12:05

Didn't it go the other way as well?  Fitting lights and mudguards to Monzas and running them in the Mille Miglia.  Or was that another model?



#29 Michael Ferner

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 12:55

I'm not sure that was allowed, but it would probably have been possible. Anyone know the MM rules?

#30 Tim Murray

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 13:36

The original monoposto Tipo B (aka P3), chassis 5001, was fitted with a narrow two-seater body and ran twice in the Mille Miglia. It won in 1935 when driven by Carlo Pintacuda and finished fourth the following year in the hands of Clemente Biondetti.

http://cdn.c.photosh...Miglia-1935.jpg

#31 Michael Ferner

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 13:45

Well, I guess that settles the eligibility issue! :D

#32 Geoff E

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 12:45

"Alfa Romeo 8C birthday party"

Simon Moore and 8Cs

Mentions removing/replacing mudguards to compete in different events.

EDIT: About Moore and his research http://www.velocetod...herlock-holmes/

Book reviews http://www.parksidep.../legendary.html

He and I were in the same year at university doing Chem Eng.

Edited by Geoff E, 21 January 2018 - 13:55.