42 replies to this topic

[f1steveuk]

I've just been reading the Rothmans 1973 Yearbook. Obviously, as they sponsored a lot of the F5000 races/championships, there are glowing reports, but even a cursory read elsewhere shows well supported races in Australia, the USA and Canada, as well as the UK and Europe. Quick cars, lots of engines, yet it petered out. Why? Seems odd that a series, you could go anywhere in the World with, even build your own car, should struggle to survive.

[FLB]

The 1973 fuel crisis played a major part, IMHO. It's a miracle F1 survived relatively unscathed and Le Mans barely made it past 1974 (1975 was a transition year, one best forgotten according to contemporary sources).

[Allen Brown]

US promoters wanted Can-Am back.  They believed they could get more people coming to sports car races than to single-seaters races, so the SCCA decided to turn F5000 into a new form of Can-Am.  That's why it abruptly ended in the US.  That took the wind out of the sails of the UK series, so it was turned into Group 8, allowing any other single-seater into it, and second-hand F1 cars quickly took over.  The Australian series soldiered on for quite a few more years, but it was no longer able to pull in overseas entries so the International series also experimented with adding F1 cars, before an overdue move to Formula Pacific in 1981.

[Charlieman]

The 1973 fuel crisis played a major part, IMHO. 

Everything happened following the oil crisis. Fuel shortage, coffee shortage, potato blight, power cuts...

[Tim Murray]

This earlier thread may be of interest:

What killed F5000?

I'm rather taken by Allen Brown's suggestion in that thread that the dominance of the Lola T330 played a major role, as it led to the other manufacturers dropping out.

[Bob Riebe]

Partly also, at least to me as a fan, when it started there was variety.

By the last year, without Shadow, it was toonear a spec. race without spec. rules.

 

At that open wheel road racing in the U.S. has always been treated as the bastard child.

[Marc Sproule]

a few visuals..

 

https://www.flickr.c...157626135973193

[E1pix]

SCCA started F5000, then killed it for the new Can-Am.

 

I've yet to fully forgive them for first destroying the Can-Am by not banning the 917 Turbos that saw McLaren's departure, then doubling down on that with F5000. The 1976 series in particular, the Swan Song, was well-supported and downright epic regardless of having a shortage of marques.

 

I believe the fuel crisis had little to do with it, other than making it harder for fans to travel long distances to attend.

[chunder27]

Surely Bernie killed it!

[Mallory Dan]

Not sure that the US decision killed it over here, Allen. The 75 UK series was struggling from early on, quite a few races with only 11-12 starters, and of those only half competitive. The economy here was starting to struggle from 74 onwards, that did as much damage as the SCCA I'd say 

[427MkIV]

Gordon Kirby writes about F5000, its growth and demise with interviews from Andretti, Redman and Hobbs

 

Interestingly, they say CART should have gone with the F5000 stock-block as its engine -- 20 years before Tony George tried it.

[opplock]

Different issues in each region although reliability was dire. 

 

On the earlier thread someone commented that crowds loved F5000. In New Zealand crowds dropped significantly once F5000 was introduced. Less to do with the cars perhaps than those driving them. 20,000 went to Levin to see Jim Clark v Chris Amon in Jan 68, 15,000 in Jan 69 to see Graham Hill v Amon. Crowds in the F5000 era were down by up to 50%. Quoted figures for NZ GP at Pukekohe - 1969 37,000, 1970 20,000. The only recognised name among the international entry between 1970 and 1976 was Mike Hailwood and only those of us who bought the specialist (mainly British) magazines knew that he raced cars.   

 

F5000 was probably doomed in NZ following the destruction of three cars in a bizarre sequence of on circuit accidents and trailer fires in the early part of 1974 - Lola T300, McRae GM1 and McLaren M18. The purchase of Lola T332 by Graeme Lawrance and (later) Ken Smith had in any event rendered these obsolete. The Begg 018 wasn't a match for the Lolas and those who bought the ex Oxton and McCully Begg FM5s didn't trouble the timekeepers. 

 

What is ironic is that NZ has far more F5000 cars now than ever ran in period. Competitor numbers have dropped in recent years as many cannot afford 650 bhp engines.  

 

I seem to recall reading at the time that the justification for sticking sportscar bodywork on F5000 cars and calling it Can-Am in North America was that crowds were way down on those of the original Can-Am.      

Edited by opplock, 29 January 2018 - 19:57.

[E1pix]

Not sure that the US decision killed it over here, Allen. The 75 UK series was struggling from early on, quite a few races with only 11-12 starters, and of those only half competitive. The economy here was starting to struggle from 74 onwards, that did as much damage as the SCCA I'd say 

F5000 was a Series we Yanks developed, so it stands to reason we started its demise as well.

[E1pix]

Gordon Kirby writes about F5000, its growth and demise with interviews from Andretti, Redman and Hobbs

 

Interestingly, they say CART should have gone with the F5000 stock-block as its engine -- 20 years before Tony George tried it.

I said that at the time — when I was 14.

 

SCCA must have only been 10 to miss the obvious. They're working very hard to kill off Club racing these days...

[Bob Riebe]

Gordon Kirby writes about F5000, its growth and demise with interviews from Andretti, Redman and Hobbs

 

Interestingly, they say CART should have gone with the F5000 stock-block as its engine -- 20 years before Tony George tried it.

Gurney wanted to use stock blocks and CART rejected his idea but at that, there was a reason USAC dropped road races after 1971 and it was not because it was so popular.

Formula A came about when Trans-AM and Can-Am hit their peak 1968-1970. A JV team facing established stars.

The original formula with up to 3 liter race engines was a dismal failure so stock block Formula replaced it in 1968. As I said the first years it was full of variety of cars and engines. I drove thousands of miles to see races in the sixties to seventies but never drove one mile because driver x was there. 

The article confuses driver hero worship , or in the writers case, his personal driver relation,  with gearhead make devotion which was still going strong in the seventies.

At that,the farce new Can-Am was all but dead on arrival as was the SCCA's ability to run professional racing.

[Ray Bell]

First of all, we are talking about a class or category, not a series...

Yes, the US had Formula A on the books with a mixture of 3-litre F1 and 5-litre stock-block engines, I think there was another option as well. But runners were few and it was only a 'series' because everything had the SCCA series.

Until British car builders saw a market for the cars and the F5000 class was introduced on the Eastern side of the Atlantic. With all of this happening at the same time as there was a need for something new and exciting in the Antipodes it soon spread all around.

Perhaps its demise was linked to its growth?

I held the belief at the time that many drivers saw themselves in these veritable monsters and worked hard to get the backing to be able to be in one. Could it be that the attraction wore off?

Apart from that, I'd blame the DG300, it needed a lot of help to be up to the job...

[Lee Nicolle]

Different issues in each region although reliability was dire. 

 

On the earlier thread someone commented that crowds loved F5000. In New Zealand crowds dropped significantly once F5000 was introduced. Less to do with the cars perhaps than those driving them. 20,000 went to Levin to see Jim Clark v Chris Amon in Jan 68, 15,000 in Jan 69 to see Graham Hill v Amon. Crowds in the F5000 era were down by up to 50%. Quoted figures for NZ GP at Pukekohe - 1969 37,000, 1970 20,000. The only recognised name among the international entry between 1970 and 1976 was Mike Hailwood and only those of us who bought the specialist (mainly British) magazines knew that he raced cars.   

 

F5000 was probably doomed in NZ following the destruction of three cars in a bizarre sequence of on circuit accidents and trailer fires in the early part of 1974 - Lola T300, McRae GM1 and McLaren M18. The purchase of Lola T332 by Graeme Lawrance and (later) Ken Smith had in any event rendered these obsolete. The Begg 018 wasn't a match for the Lolas and those who bought the ex Oxton and McCully Begg FM5s didn't trouble the timekeepers. 

 

What is ironic is that NZ has far more F5000 cars now than ever ran in period. Competitor numbers have dropped in recent years as many cannot afford 650 bhp engines.  

 

I seem to recall reading at the time that the justification for sticking sportscar bodywork on F5000 cars and calling it Can-Am in North America was that crowds were way down on those of the original Can-Am.      

And there is part of the problem.In period they were around 500hp engines but these days the engines bear little resemblance to the ones of the day. The category needs to be historic not run wot ya brung!

Holdens with VN style alloy heads, 18 deg Chev heads etc.

While using modern internals with say an 8000 rpm rev limit should be the go. eg modern cranks rods pistons valve springs ,,, and cams as you cannot buy 40+ y/o technology.  And no Ti or modern heads, or maybe a simple aftermarket 23 deg control head for Chevs.

Still 50-80hp up and an engine like that these days is quite cheap but as soon as you go 18 deg things get expensive quite quickly.

[Lee Nicolle]

First of all, we are talking about a class or category, not a series...

Yes, the US had Formula A on the books with a mixture of 3-litre F1 and 5-litre stock-block engines, I think there was another option as well. But runners were few and it was only a 'series' because everything had the SCCA series.

Until British car builders saw a market for the cars and the F5000 class was introduced on the Eastern side of the Atlantic. With all of this happening at the same time as there was a need for something new and exciting in the Antipodes it soon spread all around.

Perhaps its demise was linked to its growth?

I held the belief at the time that many drivers saw themselves in these veritable monsters and worked hard to get the backing to be able to be in one. Could it be that the attraction wore off?

Apart from that, I'd blame the DG300, it needed a lot of help to be up to the job...

The DG300 is more fragile with the monster engines used these days, the reason they have 'strolling' starts which annoys me.

Though the Hewland with 40 years of upgrades is not that bad as Sports Sedans used them relatively trouble free with 600+ hp with far more torque than a 5000 engine and weigh far more.

Most Sports Sedans use better these days as they are available for similar or often cheaper. and even then the only real problem is quill shafts and occasionally a pinion gear explodes. Though if properly maintained and 'lifed' they really are not much of a problem.

And especially with 1979 power levels!

[Ray Bell]

But Lee, this question is about why it died in period...

The introduction of some of that later 'technology' was only just beginning when the rugs came out from under them.

[Lee Nicolle]

I was simply replying to the points made in the posts I replied too.

[Bob Riebe]

And there is part of the problem.In period they were around 500hp engines but these days the engines bear little resemblance to the ones of the day. The category needs to be historic not run wot ya brung!

Holdens with VN style alloy heads, 18 deg Chev heads etc.

While using modern internals with say an 8000 rpm rev limit should be the go. eg modern cranks rods pistons valve springs ,,, and cams as you cannot buy 40+ y/o technology.  And no Ti or modern heads, or maybe a simple aftermarket 23 deg control head for Chevs.

Still 50-80hp up and an engine like that these days is quite cheap but as soon as you go 18 deg things get expensive quite quickly.

Then you get just another boring spec. series if some one wants to bring it back.

 

Ford leaving racing was probably one big reason it failed.

Unlike NASCAR there were no die hard Ford boys. That  pretty much died with Warren Tope.

The AMCs, Holdens and one team actually tried Pontiacs, that made it worth checking out.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 30 January 2018 - 00:19.

[E1pix]

… there were no die hard Ford boys. That  pretty much died with Warren Tope...

No doubt, RIP.

 

A Fan

[Bikr7549]

From my perspective as a teenager it was the cars that were the draw. The CanAm cars were way cooler machines for me than F5000, and when that died and the single seaters followed they then became pretty neat to me because of the multitude of aero shapes. A pic of the pace lap at Mt Tremblant was on my wall for decades, Schkee, Wolf and a host of others, just a beautiful shot. Racing wise as I recall there wasnt a whole lot of competition, and reliabilty was also on par with the previou big CanAm cars, pretty dismal usually-IMSA was much better in that respect. I attended mostly club races (starting mid 70’s) and while there was the occasional FA or ASR, there were never enough for a race and with the exception of Jerry Hanson the cars were usually regional level. Still cool to see and hear tho-once in a regional race closed wheel practice session at LRP I (in my showroom stock) got passed by a Mclaren M1. Looking in the mirrors going into the downhill turn there was nothing there, hitting the apex barely a few seconds later there was whoosh and roar as it went by me like I wasnt moving, and then he was gone!

[Bikr7549]

Interesting comments Lee on the DG-off topic maybe but still good info. That reminded me of something mentioned by Carrol Smith in one of his books-he predicted that the DG ‘would lose its marginal reliability’ by 1975 due to tire and engine improvements. If F5000 (or its follow on) had stayed a top level series much longer there may have been some serious improvements. He suggested that a Weissman was much better, but the racing petered out before that could take over. For the top teams did the DG continue as standard to the end of the single seat CanAm?

[DCapps]

US promoters wanted Can-Am back.  They believed they could get more people coming to sports car races than to single-seaters races, so the SCCA decided to turn F5000 into a new form of Can-Am.  That's why it abruptly ended in the US.  That took the wind out of the sails of the UK series, so it was turned into Group 8, allowing any other single-seater into it, and second-hand F1 cars quickly took over.  The Australian series soldiered on for quite a few more years, but it was no longer able to pull in overseas entries so the International series also experimented with adding F1 cars, before an overdue move to Formula Pacific in 1981.

 

I think that as Allen -- and several of the others -- suggest, it was a multitude of "things" that led to the demise of F5000, some obvious, nostalgia for the Can-Am, and some not, such as the fuel crisis. I spoke with Cameron Argetsinger regarding the decision made by SCCA to shift to Can-Am Redux and it was basically one driven by the race promoters; plus there was USAC ending its agreement with SCCA for the series, which in turn affected the decision by the promoters. Personally, Cameron leaned towards F5000, but once once the notion of a revival of the Can-Am established itself, F5000 was pretty much left with nowhere to run since the promoters wanted the new series. That "formula" or "open-wheel" road racing had been something of the red-headed stepchild of US racing during the postwar years did not help, of course. That Lola also basically "owned" the series by the end did not help. That Cameron was gone from SCCA not long after that was just one reflection of the problems that SCCA were having at the time, proving themselves fully capable of topping their incompetence as demonstrated by ousting John Bishop in 1969. Both Cameron and John had some rather pithy things to say about SCCA and its "management and decision-making skills." (Of course, John more than got even with IMSA...)

[E1pix]

 

I was a Cen Div brat then, we're rare here and might know each other. 

[Porsche718]

I think that as Allen -- and several of the others -- suggest, it was a multitude of "things" that led to the demise of F5000, 

 

In Australia, it was always going to be difficult for the lesser lights to get enough sponsorship to compete. These beasts being so expensive to keep safe, let alone competitive. So a more affordable Formula was always going to be attractive to competitors and sponsors alike. Also we have the undeniable fact that the Aussie fan loves his touring cars above all.

 

In the UK I think the demise was also due to the fact that because of the brief period of enthusiasm for F5000, there was no longer an avenue for someone to buy and use a season old Formula 1 car. That stopped in the late '60's. So throughout the first half of the '70's F1 teams could not recoup costs by offloading ex-Grand Prix machines. So promoters pushed instead for a number of "lesser" series using a year or 2 old F1 cars in the late 1970's and early '80s (not that these series were overly successful anyway!).

 

......and with all due respect to our US friends, the States seems to have a history of killing classes they give birth to. ..... for a number of reasons. Various manufacturers/promoters self interest being the main ones.

 

Anyway, just my thoughts......

[E1pix]

......and with all due respect to our US friends, the States seems to have a history of killing classes they give birth to. ..... for a number of reasons. Various manufacturers/promoters self interest being the main ones.

Agree while this haunts my mirror: 

[Stephen W]

Not sure that the US decision killed it over here, Allen. The 75 UK series was struggling from early on, quite a few races with only 11-12 starters, and of those only half competitive. The economy here was starting to struggle from 74 onwards, that did as much damage as the SCCA I'd say 

 

With the change to the single-seater Can-Am on the horizon and older cars being converted to use in it the sale of new F5000 chassis faltered. Without those sales the traditional F5000 constructors looked elsewhere and effectively F5000 in the rest of the world was doomed. I suspect the economic conditions were the reason older cars were being converted in the States and may well have contributed to the slow-down in orders from the European and Antipodean markets.

[Ray Bell]

That's not altogether conclusive with regard to Australia...

And certainly not New Zealand. Going to FAtlantic in NZ was a highly promoted idea while the country had a strong F5000 contingent, the leaders of which were forced to move their cars to Australia to race.

In Australia we had Elfin coming up with a very strong contender in the MR8, while McCormack's M23 McLaren with a Leyland engine was a strong contender. Later a McLaren M26 was converted with a Chev implant and was quickest of everything.

[f1steveuk]

Thanks all, I get a reasonable feel for what happened from the comments. Shame. A series where you could take the same car, anywhere around the World and race seems manna from heaven, but what do I know!!??

 

 

Any way, it wasn't Brexit that killed it off, because someone is going to blame it!!

[opplock]

That's not altogether conclusive with regard to Australia...

And certainly not New Zealand. Going to FAtlantic in NZ was a highly promoted idea while the country had a strong F5000 contingent, the leaders of which were forced to move their cars to Australia to race.

In Australia we had Elfin coming up with a very strong contender in the MR8, while McCormack's M23 McLaren with a Leyland engine was a strong contender. Later a McLaren M26 was converted with a Chev implant and was quickest of everything.

 

By 1975 the strong F5000 contingent in NZ amounted to the T332s of Lawrance and Smith plus the Begg 018 which was usually up to 2 seconds a lap slower driven by Jim Murdoch. There were a number of earlier cars but those that turned up were uncompetitive. Baron Robertson had an Elfin MR5 but (I was told) raced on Lawrance's cast off tyres. Neil Doyle's Surtees TS9 never really worked as an F5000.    

[Ray Bell]

So just the two top drivers in the country had to move their cars to Australia to race?

And in accepting the smaller formula NZ relinquished - at least for the time being - the prospect of Australians crossing the ditch to race with them.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
.....A series where you could take the same car, anywhere around the World and race seems manna from heaven, but what do I know!!?

Like I said, it wasn't a 'series', it was a 'class' or a 'category'.

Sometimes there were individual races, sometimes there were series of races. There were no intercontinental series.

[charles r]

Thanks all, I get a reasonable feel for what happened from the comments. Shame. A series where you could take the same car, anywhere around the World and race seems manna from heaven, but what do I know!!??

 

 

Any way, it wasn't Brexit that killed it off, because someone is going to blame it!!

Agree, it was a crying shame. Spectacular, loud and gorgeous looking cars still.

[Michael Ferner]

Shame. A series where you could take the same car, anywhere around the World and race seems manna from heaven, but what do I know!!??

Still exists. Sprint cars are much the same all over the world, and you can race them 24/7 if you're prepared to travel...

[Michael Ferner]

Actually, make that 24/365...

[Allen Brown]

Still exists. Sprint cars are much the same all over the world, and you can race them 24/7 if you're prepared to travel...

 

Formula Ford and Formula Vee likewise.  Formula Atlantic for a good while.  Even Group 7 for a number of years.   Nowadays, historic F1 and F5000 do the same job.  

[opplock]

Another factor in NZ was the growth of rallying. By 1973 the leading local rally drivers had big name sponsors such as Dulux and Woolmark. Circuit racing became the poor relation as rallying gained in popularity. By the mid 70s race promoters and sponsors had decided that casual spectators were more interested in saloons so those racing single seaters found themselves at the bottom of the sponsorship food chain. History repeats itself, Formula Pacific grids declined after the first 2 years although it survived until early 1990s, Formula Holden/Brabham folded and the NZ GP became a Formula Ford race for 4 years before the spec Toyota Racing Series began in mid 2000s. Despite having become a winter training session for the likes of Carlin (drivers and team personnel) the current series attracted a whopping 13 competitors.

 

Perhaps NZ was ahead of the curve. The only countries still running serious (quicker than F3) single seater championships appear to be US and Japan. Everywhere the focus is on saloons whether they be NASCAR, V8 Supercars, DTM, BTCC.          

[Peter Morley]

Thanks all, I get a reasonable feel for what happened from the comments. Shame. A series where you could take the same car, anywhere around the World and race seems manna from heaven, but what do I know!!??

 

 

Any way, it wasn't Brexit that killed it off, because someone is going to blame it!!

 

Maybe as manufacturers became more involved they felt it was more useful to promote engines that were locally available - e.g. why promote big V8s in Europe when you hardly sell any there, better to promote F.Ford etc.

That could kill off any global aspect of F5000 - plus the demise of another potentially global series suited BCE.

 

Of course it wasn't Brexit that killed it off, it was joining the EU that did!

Apparently the good old days were all before the EU (according to a couple of Nigels).

[Peter Morley]

Formula Ford and Formula Vee likewise.  Formula Atlantic for a good while.  Even Group 7 for a number of years.   Nowadays, historic F1 and F5000 do the same job.  

 

Plus Formula Junior which seems to have far more races than all those added together.

[Bob Riebe]

Actually, make that 24/365...

LOL, I make that same error some times.

[Bob Riebe]

I love sports cars, i.e. cars with fenders, then the late Sports Car Graphic had an article "Formula A Baby" and that go me interested in open wheel cars, beyond sprint cars that ran at our fairgrounds.

I am going, home, home today and I darn well hope like hell I still have that magazine.

It was that article that really always made the now odd ball early U.S. cars my favorites, although I have to admit I always hoped LeGrand would make a Can-Am car.

 

When Rex Ramsey won up in Canada with the last LeGrand Formula A car, I was ecstatic. 

If I remember right , he was the LeGrand test driver and they just took it up there as a shake down.

Reading Allen's site ---- Thank you, Thank you, Thank you for that site ---- is the only place you can find Formula A results and qualifying times.

 Jim Paul who bought the car (---- I found out Paul also designed the car----) was usually seven to ten seconds slower than pole time but at Laguna Seca he was only 3 seconds off of the pole and finished 8.

The next year he was 5 seconds slower than his previous time.

It still bugs me though that the early U.S. cars faded away though Ron Grable seemed to not totally abandon them.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 30 January 2018 - 18:37.