576 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

IndyCar to trial cockpit windscreen in Phoenix testing next week
 

IndyCar will trial its first attempt at a cockpit protection system by fitting a windscreen to the 2018 car at the Phoenix open test next week.
Chip Ganassi Racing's Scott Dixon will test the device during the rookie oval testing day next Thursday, and he is expected to be on track late afternoon.
IndyCar is planning to simulate the conditions of full sun, dusk and night conditions in order to see how much the windscreen will impact driver visibility.
The series has always favoured the windscreen concept over Formula 1's halo system due to expected visibility issues on ovals in particular, and the 2018 car package was created with a future cockpit protection device in mind.

 

IndyCar has stressed that it has not yet decided when the series will adapt a cockpit protection system.
"We've tested this at Dallara's simulator, but this will be the first time it has been on a car at speed," said Frye. "So, this is just the next step in the process."

[Vielleicht]

[Fulcrum]

looks ok

[Risil]

Looks alright. Will be interesting to read Dixon's comments afterwards.

[Victor_RO]

Someone pointed out on Twitter the biggest difference between the Indycar aeroscreen and the one F1 tried: constant curvature on this one, to help with the optics. Distorting as little as possible. Should mean that the visibility problems Vettel complained in the F1 aeroscreen test won't be that prevalent.

[Ben1445]

Kind of looks like a dragster canopy. No one can say they're not bad ass machines.

[AndyPerry]

Of course Indycar makes the solution actually pleasing. I'm also willing to bet it'll prove to be successful and it'll be used in this form.

Which will make FIA and F1 as a whole look like even bigger jackasses than they already were.

[noikeee]

I hope they can make it work because it's infinitely more aesthetically pleasing than the halo.

[Tsarwash]

Looks like a better solution than the halo, if the difficulties can be ironed out. I still think distortion could be an issue, but perhaps drivers will swiftly get used to that. 

[PayasYouRace]

Would be nice to see if they can get it to work.

[MastaKink]

Looks great, hope they can get it working well. 

[johnmhinds]

Why are the tests only for driver visibility and aerodynamics?

 

If it can't stop any debris then it's not going to be up to the job.

[Tsarwash]

Why are the tests only for driver visibility and aerodynamics?

 

If it can't stop any debris then it's not going to be up to the job.

I very much doubt that they will introduce a windscreen without testing it's strength and deflection ability somewhere along the line. 

[Quickshifter]

Looks like a fighter jet cockpit. Looks a million times more aggressive and pleasing at the same time when compared to the halo.

[johnmhinds]

I very much doubt that they will introduce a windscreen without testing it's strength and deflection ability somewhere along the line. 

Shouldn't testing of the materials it is made of to make sure it can stop the debris come before testing any aerodynamics of the thing?

 

The FIA already did a test of this kind of screen and it just shattered.

 

Edited by johnmhinds, 02 February 2018 - 20:42.

[Tsarwash]

I don't know, perhaps that has already happened. Perhaps they are just seeing if the visibility thing can be tested first. I'm not an engineer. 

[SKL]

If it does work,   would F1 be man enough to dump the halo and go for that??????   Somehow I doubt it.

[DS27]

It looks okay but if they want to make it look much better, all they need to do is park it alongside an F1 car.

[RacingGreen]

If it does work,   would F1 be man enough to dump the halo and go for that??????   Somehow I doubt it.

 

Not in 2018 they wont. (Also F2, F3 & FE cars have halos now. They may be difficult to change during this chassis cycle.) I think however we will look back in a couple of years scratching our heads that anybody ever thought the halo a good option.

 

The FIA version of a canopy/shield as tried by Vettel apparently caused distortion, (although one lap by one driver whose team was behind the halo is hardly a fair test.) Presumably Vettel was testing it because it had already passed crash tests etc and so was a suitable safety option. So I thought it interesting to see that Indycar have adapted it to have a constant curvature to reduce optical distortions, thus solving the problem without putting a stick in front of the drivers nose and damaging visibility in a different way. Just another example of Indycar's management making of the FIA look ridiculous.

[ANF]

It looks great! Now let the car run into a wheel assembly at 225 kph.

[stewie]

I’m fine with this over the halo.

[RacingGreen]

Shouldn't testing of the materials it is made of to make sure it can stop the debris come before testing any aerodynamics of the thing?

 

The FIA already did a test of this kind of screen and it just shattered.

 

 

Yes it shattered but it's job isn't to survive a crash without a scratch, it's job is to deflect material away from the cockpit and protect the driver. And it did that successfully. (Hence it's test on the Ferrari.)

 

Think about your road car - it is designed to crumple so you aren't hurt. Yes you need a new car after a big crash, but the chance of you walking away are much higher than they ever have been.

Edited by RacingGreen, 02 February 2018 - 21:31.

[PayasYouRace]

It definitely gets a thumbs up from me for looks.

My concerns are with vision and overall strength.

Say what you want about the halo but it is a titanium core, making it incredibly strong. I can’t make a judgement on the strength and toughness of that screen by eye, but obviously the question remains.

In terms of vision, the halo only creates a small blockage in the centre, which won’t be an issue on normal circuits, and the halo itself, which Indycar sees as a problem for higher banked ovals. This obviously isn’t an issue for F1, FE or any of the other adopters of the halo. This screen would have no blockage, but the optics of the curved screen could be a problem, and there the issue of rain and debris build up to consider.

Good on Indycar if they can make it work, but people’s obvious dislike for the halo’s aesthetic ignores that it’s a good solution to the problem faced, but it’s not as suitable for ovals. The FIA have chosen a solution that works for their series. Indycar has other design criteria requiring a different solution.

If they can make it work, I can see FIA series adopting a similar solution in future.

[maximilian]

Yes it shattered but it's job isn't to survive a crash without a scratch, it's job is to deflect material away from the cockpit and protect the driver. And it did that successfully. (Hence it's test on the Ferrari.)

 

Think about your road car - it is designed to crumple so you aren't hurt. Yes you need a new car after a big crash, but the chance of you walking away are much higher than they ever have been.

 

Absolutely correct.  People tend to say this thing a lot, but ANYTHING in the way at all will still lessen the impact/absorb energy and will always be better than NOTHING in the way of the helmet sustaining a direct hit.  That said, I like the look of this, and am very hopeful that it will be a successful test.

[Peat]

Slightly less half-arsed than the Halo, and alot better looking.

[Prost1997T]

Why are the tests only for driver visibility and aerodynamics?

 

If it can't stop any debris then it's not going to be up to the job.

 

Testing and prototyping has been happening since early 2017. Who said the tests are only for visibility? One day of testing is not the be-all end-all.

 

edit: make that 2 years of development. As for the material, from Indycar itself:

 

 

The windscreen is made of a proprietary Opticor advanced transparency material by PPG, the same material the company uses in its production of fighter jet canopies. The material has shown to be stronger, lighter and more impact-resistant than polycarbonate previously used, according to Jeff Horton, INDYCAR’s director of engineering and safety, who has spearheaded windscreen development with Dr. Terry Trammell, INDYCAR medical consultant.

 

Edited by Prost1997T, 02 February 2018 - 22:28.

[Prost1997T]

 

The FIA already did a test of this kind of screen and it just shattered

 

Actually they tried 4 different options:

 

- Thick plexiglass windscreen: as seen above

- Full canopy (from an F-16): passed an impact test, but hindered driver extraction

- Red Bull aeroscreen: deflected a tyre, but the driver's head moved forward and made contact with the screen during other tests.

- Shield: Vettel tried it on track and said it made him dizzy, no impact tests that I know of.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Let's not forget, one of the reasons that FIA chose the Halo device, was to avoid flying cars landing/hitting driver's head and since 2007, there have been 8 similar near miss accidents that could've been very fatal. Windscreen shield doesn't guarantee that kind of protection.

Edited by RainyAfterlifeDaylight, 02 February 2018 - 22:31.

[Prost1997T]

Let's not forget, one of the reasons that FIA chose the Halo device, was to avoid flying cars landing/hitting driver's head and since 2007, there have been 8 similar near miss accidents that could've been very fatal.

 

The halo's protection focuses on the front of the car. I didn't see any tests dropping cars on the stationary halo or windshield designs either, mostly wheels. The stated aim is "the halo can fend off a strike by a 20kg object - such as a wheel - hitting at around 225km/h (140mph)."

[Risil]

Given that Indycar has generally led F1 and NASCAR when it comes to safety innovations, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they wouldn't be putting the protective screen on the cars if it wasn't up for the job.

[Prost1997T]

Given that Indycar has generally led F1 and NASCAR when it comes to safety innovations, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt that they wouldn't be putting the protective screen on the cars if it wasn't up for the job.

 

HANS, tyre tethers and SAFER barriers being three examples. Not that you would know that with how the motorsport media talks.

[Risil]

That's why we're here! Also for restaurant recommendations in the Indianapolis area.

[Fulcrum]

Shouldn't testing of the materials it is made of to make sure it can stop the debris come before testing any aerodynamics of the thing?

The FIA already did a test of this kind of screen and it just shattered.

https://www.youtube....h?v=e87HIlOIYFA

This winscreen is made of opticor not polycarbonat.

[johnmhinds]

This winscreen is made of opticor not polycarbonat.

 

PPG says their opticor material needs to be laminated with acrylic, which performs worse than polycarbonate in impacts.

 

Edited by johnmhinds, 03 February 2018 - 01:54.

[JHSingo]

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, I fail to see how this would have made any difference in IndyCar's two most recent tragedies.

 

While ever a part of the head remains exposed as it does with the Halo and this, I still see the risk of a Wilson like debris strike, or Wheldon type of incident. The latter example is perhaps extreme, and like Bianchi you can argue than nothing would have saved his life. But, yeah, I don't see how this would have saved the life of Justin Wilson. Has it been designed with either of those incidents in mind, or is it (like the Halo) a "the best we can do right now" solution?

 

To my eye, it looks more like a cosmetic feature than something that would add much protection, but hopefully I'm wrong about that.

 

These half-arsed solutions really aren't great, though, are they? Either go full closed cockpit, or you might as well not bother.

[PiperPa42]

PPG says their opticor material needs to be laminated with acrylic, which performs worse than polycarbonate in impacts.
 

But how does acrylic work when lamineted with opticor?

Thw whole point between laminating is to improve materials strengths.

[johnmhinds]

But how does acrylic work when lamineted with opticor?

Thw whole point between laminating is to improve materials strengths.

It's being laminated with the acrylic to improve the stiffness and strength of the opticor not the other way round.

 

Their marketing says that the laminate of the two is stronger than plain acrylic but I couldn't find anything saying that it performed better than polycarbonate.

 

www.ppgaerospace.com/getdoc/14c02e46-c994-4621-8ac2-36d5a18227a4/Opticor-Advanced-Transparency-Material.aspx

Edited by johnmhinds, 03 February 2018 - 02:32.

[jonpollak]

Just got off the plane here in New Orleans but my first thought is... CLAG collection device.

That said the pits stops could be like a 50's service station...

Guys running around with rags and spray cleaner... making stuff all shiny and new.

Jp

Edited by jonpollak, 03 February 2018 - 03:54.

[AustinF1]

So IndyCar can do a screen but F1 can't? Oh, that's right, Vettel & Ferrari didn't like it, so it was never seen again.

[AustinF1]

If it does work,   would F1 be man enough to dump the halo and go for that??????   Somehow I doubt it.

...and admit that IndyCar was able to make it work when they dismissed the idea? Don't hold your breath.

[SlipLtd]

Just got off the plane here in New Orleans but my first thought is... CLAG collection device.
That said the pits stops could be like a 50's service station...
Guys running around with rags and spray cleaner... making stuff all shiny and new.
Jp

I predict bath towel sized tear-offs.

[boomn]

I predict bath towel sized tear-offs.

Wouldn't be anything new.  Full windshield tear-offs are already used in stock car and sports car racing

[DarthWillie]

How would this handle dirt and oil between pitstops? Big stains could really affect visibility

[PiperPa42]

I'd assume it would be no different to a visor on a helmet.

[Peat]

So IndyCar can do a screen but F1 can't? Oh, that's right, Vettel & Ferrari didn't like it, so it was never seen again.

Dear boy, you don't think Ferrari actually had an opinion do you?

The Halo was already decided upon (internally) at that point and Vettels lap with the screen was nothing more than a charade to due diligence.

[Kalmake]

Looks weak. I want to see wheel impact test. I guess the idea is to deflect much of the energy with the angle they have gone for.

 

There seems to be significant distortion looking at that grey door, but maybe it's somehow better from drivers angle.

[dau]

So IndyCar can do a screen but F1 can't? Oh, that's right, Vettel & Ferrari didn't like it, so it was never seen again.

Vettel & Ferrari actually tested one on track. This is an announcement to test one in IndyCar, accompanied with some photos of the integration. F1 was at this point more than six months ago. 

[TheRacingElf]

Shame F1 never gave this a fair chance. They gave the Halo years of development time whereas with the screens they just ordered a piece of acrylic, put it on the car and decided after a whole 5 minutes that it somehow wasn't going to work. They didn't even want to try to look at how they could overcome the problems that arose with the screens. At least Indycar gives the screen a fair chance and has put a lot of development into it, I'm fairly certain that they'll make it work and I'm also fairly certain F1 could've made it work had they put some effort in.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

The halo's protection focuses on the front of the car. I didn't see any tests dropping cars on the stationary halo or windshield designs either, mostly wheels. The stated aim is "the halo can fend off a strike by a 20kg object - such as a wheel - hitting at around 225km/h (140mph)."

 

FIA's safety director, Laurent Mekies explains in 08:24 the positive effectiveness of the Halo in those conditions.

 

[phrank]

Vettel & Ferrari actually tested one on track. This is an announcement to test one in IndyCar, accompanied with some photos of the integration. F1 was at this point more than six months ago. 

If you look into the actual details you can see that this is a more advanced and better developed version of what F1 did. Its good Indycar is not going for a rush job but acutally goes for a good solution.