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Hybrid Hot Rodding


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#1 mariner

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 16:39

 I guess a simple definition of hot rodding is to cleverly select some existing parts, ideally secondhand, and assemble them into something special in performance or appearance using as little precision engineering as possible.

 

Max Balchowsky's Ol' Yella would be a great amateur example , beating Ferrari's with often junk components. For mfrs. Pontiac's original GTO was their biggest engine plus lots of production carbs into a mid size car engine bay.

 

Today hot rodding is very hard as modern engines are highly optimisied and controlled via CAN bus systems which are hard to modify.

 

Maybe the wave of new hybrids and EV's can give us hope by using " rear end hot rodding", basically installing an electric drivetrain in the back of a FWD car.

 

Electric motors have two big advantages for hot rodding, Firstly they are so simple they hardly wear out so a second hand one would be fine. Secondly, you can get an electric motor to provide a huge power boost for a short while. An extreme case is an RC helicopter engine half the size of a coke can which gives 7 bhp continuous but gives 14 bhp for 2 seconds. As a hot rod never uses full power for more than , say, 10 seconds that is fine.

 

Pure EV's use big batteries but mild hybrids have small ones to run just a few miles on pure battery so not to heavy for hot rodding.

 

If you use two motors then no diif.and the drive shafts to hubs at rear are not too hard. The engineering bit is making the rear hub of an FWD car "live" but even there some models like Golf's and Insignia's which have  FWD versions so suitable hubs are available.

 

So buy a older hot hatch, junk all the gizmos to save weight, mount the electric motor(s )under the boot floor and bolt the battery onto the rear seat pan. Then use some smart young guy/girl to build up the clever bit which is the inverter/controller.


Edited by mariner, 05 February 2018 - 16:41.


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#2 Greg Locock

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 19:15

I am supposed to be working on a 4WD electric off road buggy. My partner in crime currently drives (and wins with) a Hayabusa powered 2wd Edge Barracuda he built himself, but he likes EVs and wants a new project. If you have a look on Alibaba you'll find all sorts of wheelmotors with controllers that are almost plug and play. The one we're looking at can either be driven via a speed signal, or a torque signal. At the moment I'm a bit flummoxed by the complexities and have settled for 3 knobs on the dash, which are effectively the lockup characteristics of the three traditional diffs on a 4WD. I can add complexity to that once we get experience. I can see that we'll be able to have a lot of fun with thrust vectoring. I'd almost certainly use an Arduino as the controller as I already have 20 of them and several compatible gyro and accelerometer boards. I may have to build a little R/C car and use that to debug my ideas. One idea was to do away with the steering front wheels.

 

The real problem is the battery, not surprisingly. Half an hour racing with 60 hp is 20 kWh or more, he'll need two or three and a way of charging them overnight. 

 

Obviously with only 60 hp he is not going to be especially competitive, but in a 450 kg car that is mostly grip limited that may not be too bad. 



#3 malbear

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 20:40

If the racing is in the bush somewhere then I suppose he would have to use a 10kva diesel genset overnight to charge the batteries . a popup dunlight 3 blader  like farmhouses used in the 50s wouldn't be enough even on a windy night 



#4 Greg Locock

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 19:55

Hmm, and everyone else camping there is gonna love that. Actually they have on-site electricity, but I think he'll blow the fuse.



#5 kikiturbo2

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 00:27

Hmm, and everyone else camping there is gonna love that. Actually they have on-site electricity, but I think he'll blow the fuse.

we have had some local guys do just that recently... competed in Budapest - Bamako amateur rally, crossing across Africa in a Tesla X. Took a Dacia van with them to carry a petrol generator and used the Dacia as a "wind breaker" on some sections.. :D



#6 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 02:42

Hybrid hot rod would be one of those electric wheelchairs with ten horse power engine added.



#7 scolbourne

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 03:12

I assume this hot rod is designed for 1/4 mile races, so battery capacity is not to large but it needs to provide a high current for a few seconds. A super capacitor might be best for the job.

For drag racing electric power is ideal, just look at the performance figures for the Tesla, and for longer races they have been doing great at Pikes Peak. I dont know why everyone thinks of EV as being slow.

 

The other great thing is you can strip down a motor in the house without your partner going mad.



#8 gruntguru

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Posted 01 March 2018 - 04:03

Then again - how often would you need to strip down a motor?



#9 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 06:11

I am supposed to be working on a 4WD electric off road buggy. My partner in crime currently drives (and wins with) a Hayabusa powered 2wd Edge Barracuda he built himself, but he likes EVs and wants a new project. If you have a look on Alibaba you'll find all sorts of wheelmotors with controllers that are almost plug and play. The one we're looking at can either be driven via a speed signal, or a torque signal. At the moment I'm a bit flummoxed by the complexities and have settled for 3 knobs on the dash, which are effectively the lockup characteristics of the three traditional diffs on a 4WD. I can add complexity to that once we get experience. I can see that we'll be able to have a lot of fun with thrust vectoring. I'd almost certainly use an Arduino as the controller as I already have 20 of them and several compatible gyro and accelerometer boards. I may have to build a little R/C car and use that to debug my ideas. One idea was to do away with the steering front wheels.

 

The real problem is the battery, not surprisingly. Half an hour racing with 60 hp is 20 kWh or more, he'll need two or three and a way of charging them overnight. 

 

Obviously with only 60 hp he is not going to be especially competitive, but in a 450 kg car that is mostly grip limited that may not be too bad. 

And stating the obvious. Wheel motors are heavy. And for competition, more so off road unsprung weight is very important. And dare I say with off road pounding will probably fail. 

What is ok for a commuter toy is far from ok for offroading.

Most of the offroaders I know learnt that 30 years ago. And then the gearboxes would usually live for an event.

Though many went the other way from big steel flywheels to Centrelines which are drag race wheels.

I am not much involved any more but it seems most are using smaller tyres rear on cast alloy wheels. The smaller tyres again are lighter.



#10 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 06:14

If the racing is in the bush somewhere then I suppose he would have to use a 10kva diesel genset overnight to charge the batteries . a popup dunlight 3 blader  like farmhouses used in the 50s wouldn't be enough even on a windy night 

Yay, diesels to charge the EV. Very enviromentally stable. Just like SAs electricity.



#11 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 06:17

 I guess a simple definition of hot rodding is to cleverly select some existing parts, ideally secondhand, and assemble them into something special in performance or appearance using as little precision engineering as possible.

 

Max Balchowsky's Ol' Yella would be a great amateur example , beating Ferrari's with often junk components. For mfrs. Pontiac's original GTO was their biggest engine plus lots of production carbs into a mid size car engine bay.

 

Today hot rodding is very hard as modern engines are highly optimisied and controlled via CAN bus systems which are hard to modify.

 

Maybe the wave of new hybrids and EV's can give us hope by using " rear end hot rodding", basically installing an electric drivetrain in the back of a FWD car.

 

Electric motors have two big advantages for hot rodding, Firstly they are so simple they hardly wear out so a second hand one would be fine. Secondly, you can get an electric motor to provide a huge power boost for a short while. An extreme case is an RC helicopter engine half the size of a coke can which gives 7 bhp continuous but gives 14 bhp for 2 seconds. As a hot rod never uses full power for more than , say, 10 seconds that is fine.

 

Pure EV's use big batteries but mild hybrids have small ones to run just a few miles on pure battery so not to heavy for hot rodding.

 

If you use two motors then no diif.and the drive shafts to hubs at rear are not too hard. The engineering bit is making the rear hub of an FWD car "live" but even there some models like Golf's and Insignia's which have  FWD versions so suitable hubs are available.

 

So buy a older hot hatch, junk all the gizmos to save weight, mount the electric motor(s )under the boot floor and bolt the battery onto the rear seat pan. Then use some smart young guy/girl to build up the clever bit which is the inverter/controller.

I guess you know that Don Garlits has been playing with an electric dragster. 3 years ago he was trying for 200mph, I have not heard any more recently. It was around the 180 mark so not slow but not reliable either. And just whistles a bit.



#12 gruntguru

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 05:36

I believe there is an Aussie team working on an electric dragster project with the ultimate goal of going faster than Top Fuel.



#13 JacnGille

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Posted 08 March 2018 - 01:16

I believe there is an Aussie team working on an electric dragster project with the ultimate goal of going faster than Top Fuel.

Don Garlits already has one.



#14 scolbourne

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 04:10

The current quickest electric vehicle in the world as of December 2017 is the "Rocket Bike", a motorcycle owned by Shawn Lawless and piloted by Larry "Spiderman" McBride, with a time of 6.940 seconds ET in the quarter mile at 201.37 MPH set at Virginia Motorsports Park in May 2012. 



#15 Charlieman

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 12:54

 I guess a simple definition of hot rodding is to cleverly select some existing parts, ideally secondhand, and assemble them into something special in performance or appearance using as little precision engineering as possible.

 

...

 

So buy a older hot hatch, junk all the gizmos to save weight, mount the electric motor(s )under the boot floor and bolt the battery onto the rear seat pan. Then use some smart young guy/girl to build up the clever bit which is the inverter/controller.

 

This is pretty much my understanding of a hot rod. As much as I appreciate the engineering that applies to some of the cars described above, they aren't hot rods made from "car plus junk".

 

A youngish bloke across the road from me owns a VW Polo G40 which is modified -- sensibly. It's his second G40. He over modified the first one, such that the engine generated too much torque for the drive shafts and suspension mounts. His second G40 is a car which is now a classic and there's enough interest in the model to find newly manufactured parts. I don't think he is going to mess this one up.

 

If we go back a few years, tuning outfits sold kits or individual components labelled (randomly, of course) Stage 1, 2 or 3. Stage 1 might have comprised different carburettor jets, inlet manifold, better distributor accessories. Stage 3 was not necessarily a full competition setup but it might have an optimised cylinder head and exhausts -- and improved brakes.

 

And when owners cracked or blew up, hoping to raise funds for a replacement daily driver, they had a market for second hand goodies.

 

I could get interested in how to make a small hybrid go faster -- the Prius is too big for me, even if it is small when compared to some successful saloon racers. I'd want to make it as light as possible -- which implies keeping the batteries as low as possible. If I could find a car scrapper offering electric motors from a Prius or similar at a sensible price, I'd look at them as replacements in a smaller car. I'd consider whether to rewind/refurbish motors. If I was sending double the power to electric motors, I'd have to rip out all existing wiring.



#16 MatsNorway

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 13:04

Hot roding would be to scrap/sell the batteries++ and slap on a big turbo. and woila. your new NSX is now down 500kg (idk) and has perhaps the same power or more.

 

Lap times up. Maintenance costs down.


Edited by MatsNorway, 12 March 2018 - 13:11.


#17 Charlieman

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 14:12

Hot roding would be to scrap/sell the batteries++ and slap on a big turbo. and woila. your new NSX is now down 500kg (idk) and has perhaps the same power or more.

An Austin A35 weighed 1570 pounds according to my 1960s Haynes manual. That's about 700kg, so maybe 600kg for a stripped BMC Mini. With a roll cage? Owing to new materials and better usage, we should be able to reduce weight from the lump of the engine. But to 500kg?

 

My respect to anyone racing a stripped out Japanese super-mini weighing less than 550kg.

 

But we have become distracted. It isn't a hybrid hot rod if you get rid of the hybrid elements.



#18 MatsNorway

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 17:14

haha. I meant -500kg

 

idk -  I  Don^t Know.

 

I was half joking about it.

 

What i do know is that the NSX also have a giant gearbox. a nine speed DCG, Trow that DCG and grab a regular sequential. -40kg probably.

 

converting or trowing in some hybrid/electric stuff only makes sense if you look at the costs or your starting point.

 

 

btw.

Here is me in a 90hp Colt on all season tires vs a base model Tesla

https://youtu.be/I5s...UN06HQYnU&t=355

He slowly builds some distance.

 

Putting Tesla bits in my Colt would have made me faster. But would it smoke the same car with a GTi engine? that is a 1.6 160hp engine with no more weight than today. so still a sub 1000kg car.

 

Trow in some springs, dampers and tires and you already have a wicked fast car.

 

 

The Colt got a stiff chassis but it has bad balance and is in general a shitty drive.

 

It was humbling to have the caterham dive past me around the 22.30 mark. Most people takes it easy there.


Edited by MatsNorway, 12 March 2018 - 17:42.


#19 gruntguru

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 04:21

Aussie electric dragster. http://www.createdig...ld-drag-racing/



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#20 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 13:41

A drag story of ice and fire

#21 Bikr7549

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Posted 20 March 2018 - 02:14

Not a hybrid hot rod but I have thought it would be way cool to gut a prius and put in a hot engine and wider wheels and suspension upgrades. Good aero and an innocent look would make a real sleeper.

#22 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 04:40

Aussie electric dragster. http://www.createdig...ld-drag-racing/

Well they are a LOT cleaner than Drag race diesels which should have an EPA alert.

Though other than that it really is WHY? Yes electric motors are powerfull but to remotely compete with top fuel they need at least 3 times the power being made now.

An electric class for Production based cars is viable and they would probably be near the pace of a petrol engined production car but the weight will always be the issue as well as safety as well. Though with the amount of crashes in tintop dragracing there already is an issue!



#23 Wuzak

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 05:44

Though other than that it really is WHY? Yes electric motors are powerfull but to remotely compete with top fuel they need at least 3 times the power being made now.

 

3 times the power of what?

 

3 times the power of 5,000hp, which is claimed for the EV installation in that article?

3 times the power of a top fuel dragster (8,000-10,000hp)?

 

As to why, surely that applies to drag racing as a whole and top fuel drag racing in particular? Or even motor racing at all.



#24 MatsNorway

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 08:05

Even with 10 000hp they will struggle to keep up with a Top fuel. They lack the exhaust downforce.. Then again.. not the same rules so i guess you can add a electric fan or something :p



#25 gruntguru

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Posted 25 April 2018 - 02:18

Well they are a LOT cleaner than Drag race diesels which should have an EPA alert.

Though other than that it really is WHY? Yes electric motors are powerfull but to remotely compete with top fuel they need at least 3 times the power being made now.

An electric class for Production based cars is viable and they would probably be near the pace of a petrol engined production car but the weight will always be the issue as well as safety as well. Though with the amount of crashes in tintop dragracing there already is an issue!

A lot cleaner than ANY drag car!! Even using electricity from a brown coal power station!!!

Weight is NEVER the issue. Electric motors can compete on a power/weight basis with any combustion engine. Battery weight is not an issue in drag racing, the range required is very small = small battery.

Regardless - the fastest accelerating production car you can buy today is a luxury electric car with several hundred km range!!


Edited by gruntguru, 25 April 2018 - 04:14.


#26 desmo

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 00:39

I wonder if an electric's output would have to be fiddled to suit top fuel tires developed for a very particular sort of power. 



#27 MatsNorway

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 10:44

Could be but not not likely. The top fuel dragster goes "full power" from the first second and the clutch is programmed to deliver the correct torque all the way.. until it welds shut.



#28 Wuzak

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 16:01

Could be but not not likely. The top fuel dragster goes "full power" from the first second and the clutch is programmed to deliver the correct torque all the way.. until it welds shut.

 

If teh clutch is slipping, all the power can't be being delivered to the rear wheels.

 

Until, of course, it "welds shut", at which point all power is going to the wheels.



#29 MatsNorway

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 17:20

ah, yes. Just in case; they run them "full power" hence the "." meaning they do that to get the full downforce effect from the exhaust. I do not know the details on ignition but they probably do some retardation on the spark. Less heat, less heat and so on.

 

My point was to highlight that the power available is in abundance and feeded in as needed by the clutch. max torque is max torque for the tires. They would not notice much difference.


Edited by MatsNorway, 28 April 2018 - 17:21.


#30 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 23 May 2018 - 06:15

Don Garlits has been playing with an electric Dragster. It is running around 180 mph 3 or 4 years ago. 

And THAT is where I base 3 times the power though probably more. That is probably top alcohol.



#31 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 07:15

I don't see how a hot-rod can start with a modern hatch...

It just goes right against the grain!

#32 MatsNorway

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 18:46

It will never be a hot rod. Just a tuned hatch ye.



#33 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 11:12

The best bit is...

It will never last...

#34 Charlieman

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 11:59

It will never be a hot rod. Just a tuned hatch ye.

Come on, Mats. Hot hatchbacks may not be your cup of tea (or mine) but show some respect to the lads and lasses with modest incomes who want to have fun with modest cars.



#35 MatsNorway

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 16:47

Did not say a bad thing about hatchbacks. But a hot rod is a speific thing, usually involving V8 pushrods in a spesific era car.  Video shared above is me in a Hatchback btw. Not the most interesting video but it was for an argument.

This one has more action:  https://youtu.be/dsOrDCeVXRo

On all season tires: https://youtu.be/P0PH9oJyijs

OT: I learned so much about tires that no one have told me before.


Edited by MatsNorway, 25 May 2018 - 16:54.


#36 mariner

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 19:02

It's a slight deviation but walking through central London last week I saw young person near Russell Square on one of these powered skateboards.

 

https://www.skatehut...AyABEgIJDPD_BwE

 

He was using the cycle lanes which have their own traffic light controls for cyclist safety. 

 

The acceleration of him and his board was amazing, he out-dragged the cars and looked like getting up to about 12 - 15 mph, which is quick in London. 

 

Forget all that cycling stuff, its hard work which means you breath extra pollution, and it's no greener than an electric skateboard recharged on non-fossil electricity - which now powers a big chunk of Britain on good days.

 

And it is SO quick!! 

 

On a serious note I also noticed that there is now a special lower pollution walking route from the Euston station to the Eurostar one at St Pancras to help people because the normal Euston Road route is so above pollution standards due to diesel traffic etc.



#37 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 02:48

Don Garlits already has one.

But about half the pace of top fuel. 180mph is less than so called street cars