38 replies to this topic

[Vettelari]

Well, I found this news interesting. Apparently, they cannot find a third manufacturer and the Super GT 3 are not showing much interest in a convergence.

 

It would certainly be interesting to watch. I am not sure how it would work with the GTE field being so focused on BOP.

 

What do you guys think? Is this doom for DTM or a fresh restart?

 

https://www.autospor...or-future-rules

Edited by Vettelari, 06 February 2018 - 17:17.

[balage06]

On one hand, it would certainly be interesting, yes, and it would open the opportunity for other manufacturers to join the series, but on the other hand, Germany already has a strong national GT championship (the ADAC GT Masters), so I don't really know... I'm still hoping for the Super GT merger, it could be an interesting platform after the death of WTCC.

[PayasYouRace]

DTM is occupies a weird place right now as the only high profile silhouette racing series about. It's not a touring car series in anything but name.

 

I get the similarity to SuperGT, because both exist as platforms for the local carmakers to show off. But I don't see it as being enough to justify a common formula.

[boomn]

Sounds like a panic reaction that could hurt them in the long run.  It's possible that existing rules like GTE or GT3 are the only thing manufacturers are very willing to be involved in, and that would be sad if true.  But it would be more sad to me to see DTM water itself down to become yet another GT racing series, and I'm not sure they would ever be able to recover from that.  I'd rather see them pause the series for a year or two in order to build and execute a better plan

[Vettelari]

Recently, has there been a racing series that has taken a 2 year pause and eventually recovered to their previous popularity? Honest question.

 

Over here in the states, the closest thing to that I can think of would be the MLB and NHL strikes. Both sports were devastated and the NHL has still yet to recover.

 

By targeting GTE, I wonder which manufacturers they are hoping to add.  I'm not sure Ford and Chevrolet would be interested in such a series. I'm guessing that Porsche is the hope with an outside shot at Ferrari or a Risi substitute? Would AM gain anything from entering what is essentially a national series?

Edited by Vettelari, 06 February 2018 - 20:07.

[boomn]

DTM is occupies a weird place right now as the only high profile silhouette racing series about. It's not a touring car series in anything but name.

 

I get the similarity to SuperGT, because both exist as platforms for the local carmakers to show off. But I don't see it as being enough to justify a common formula.

DTM and SuperGT already share substantial spec chassis and aero parts and common rules for many other parts.  They even started using common aero rules a couple years back, though I'm not sure if the aero part has stayed exactly the same recently.  The current rule books aren't that far apart, and it wouldn't take much at all to converge them enough that the Japanese companies could at least sell cars to privateer teams for the DTM.  I wonder what the sticking points are? 

 

The big remaining differences in the cars are:

 

V8's in DTM while GT500 has already moved to the turbo 4's that DTM originally planned to around this time.  I think I've heard that the German manufacturer's like the current V8's though

 

DRS in DTM but not in GT500.  Already sharing the same spec wing, just with the DRS disabled in GT500

 

Spec tires in DTM but an open tire war in GT500.  They share the same tire dimensions though

Edited by boomn, 06 February 2018 - 20:20.

[boomn]

Recently, has there been a racing series that has taken a 2 year pause and eventually recovered to their previous popularity? Honest question.

 

A good question too.  I can't see 2 years being a healthy thing either.  But I personally don't see becoming yet another GT series as healthy for their future

[JHSingo]

I can't see that working out. GTE cars are only a bit quicker than GT3 cars and a chunk more expensive. So, who is going to run the cars, and why would they elect to do that series instead of WEC/IMSA? The latter already has several 'sprint' races anyway.

 

I suppose they can't become a GT3 series, as there's already so many of them about. But GTE? I suspect it would go the way of the GT1 World Championship. Survive for a few years, never living up to expectation, and inevitably folding a couple of years later.

It strikes me as odd that officials didn't think to 'future proof' their series. They should have had a back-up plan for a worse case scenario, and could have avoided all this uncertainty. Maybe they thought they were immune, just like all racing series seem to think they are...til something like this happens to them. They really are caught between a rock and a hard place at the moment, but ultimately it's of their own making.

Edited by JHSingo, 06 February 2018 - 21:11.

[TennisUK]

Maybe I'm wrong, but at GTE cars not more expensive to run than DTM cars currently?

If they were going to go the GT route, as much as I dislike it, GT3 would probably be the way to go for a domestic series in terms of both cost and diversity...

[ArrowsLivery]

Great news. I have been begging for somebody to start a GTE sprint series. The WEC does not do them justice with all the focus on the prototypes.

[TennisUK]

Maybe I'm wrong, but at GTE cars not more expensive to run than DTM cars currently?

If they were going to go the GT route, as much as I dislike it, GT3 would probably be the way to go for a domestic series in terms of both cost and diversity...

Though... the lineup for the ADAC GT masters was revealed today. Blimey, what a decent loooking grid (albeit GT3). The DTM would really need to be doing something good to top it. Which is why I guess GTE may be the thought...

[V8 Fireworks]

Why not use Super Formula rules but with added Mercedes and Audi four pot turbos (or would that impinge on F1 and F2?).   Maybe there is no need for DTM to be saloons?

[PayasYouRace]

Why not use Super Formula rules but with added Mercedes and Audi four pot turbos (or would that impinge on F1 and F2?).   Maybe there is no need for DTM to be saloons?

What do you think the T stands for in DTM?

[Vettelari]

Draconian Traveling Machines = D.T.M.

 

Right?

Edited by Vettelari, 07 February 2018 - 00:32.

[Vettelari]

Delicate Turbo Motors?

 

I give up...

Edited by Vettelari, 07 February 2018 - 00:32.

[jonpollak]

A veiled attempt to get Ms. Nielsen over to Germany.

[pierrep]

I'm just imaging Audi and Mercedes at LM in GTE-Pro. Drooling.

[FPV GTHO]

DTM hasnt been saloons since 2012

I think this could work if done right. BMW already have a GTE car, Mercedes and Audi could modify their GT3 machinery and go back to the old rivalries. Porsche could enter to increase the pool of German manufacturers, or they might look to attract other European makers of GT3 machinery that could adapt.

[juicy sushi]

DTM going to GT rules would complete the circle, as the original DTM came about because of the collapse of the old DRM which used Group 5 silhouette car rules. GT3 sprint races could be quite fun, although BMW would need to build one.

Super Formula rules make no sense. For one thing, the fans want MORE hard racing, not less than now. Also, the DTM manufacturers don't want to go to full Class 1 rules (matching the Japanese) because of the expense of the 2-litre turbo engines. Given Honda and Toyota use those engines in both Super GT and Super Formula, it's hard to see how the Germans would want to ditch the current chassis as well when that's the cheaper part of Class 1 rules.

I think DTM has offed itself again, just like in the ITC era.

Go GT3, or just go back to being proper DTM and run TCR rules. Although ADAC already has a series for that.

[Cornholio]

Recently, has there been a racing series that has taken a 2 year pause and eventually recovered to their previous popularity? Honest question.

 

Over here in the states, the closest thing to that I can think of would be the MLB and NHL strikes. Both sports were devastated and the NHL has still yet to recover.

 

By targeting GTE, I wonder which manufacturers they are hoping to add.  I'm not sure Ford and Chevrolet would be interested in such a series. I'm guessing that Porsche is the hope with an outside shot at Ferrari or a Risi substitute? Would AM gain anything from entering what is essentially a national series?

 

Depends on your defintion of recent I guess, but the DTM itself between 1997-99 was the first thing that came to mind

[Vettelari]

GT3, Super GT, GTE... Heck, how about they consider going DPi? Mercedes and Lexus/Toyota are rumored to be joining soon while Honda/Acura, Nissan, GM/Cadillac, and Mazda are already in. I'm only halfway joking.

 

I find this whole DTM saga very interesting. A top flight series open to so many suggestions on how to move on from here. Whatever they decide will make or break the series, IMO.

 

With their unwillingness to go forward using BMW and Audi, Porsche has to be their goal. In the end, I think Porsche will decide where DTM goes from here.

[V8 Fireworks]

With their unwillingness to go forward using BMW and Audi, 

 

 

Do tell more?

 

If BMW and Audi are committed, why are DTM re configuring!?

[Vettelari]

Ha! I meant to say "their unwillingness to go forward WITH ONLY BMW and Audi".

 

My bad!

[balage06]

 

Do tell more?

 

If BMW and Audi are committed, why are DTM re configuring!?

 

I think both manufacturers said they rather leave than continue with only two makes (increasing their number of cars would also increase costs again).

Edited by balage06, 07 February 2018 - 07:13.

[V8 Fireworks]

I think both manufacturers said they rather leave than continue with only two makes (increasing their number of cars would also increase costs again).

 

Yes, certainly a pickle if cost to race exceeds the value of true commercial sponsorship and therefore requires manufacturers to prop it up! 

 

Why do series do that!?

[learningtobelost]

My heart says sprint races using GTEs will be great fun. And, honestly, more chances to see the Porsche 911 RSR can only be a good thing. But my head says this would be another ultimately fruitless direction change from a series that's running out the clock.

[Lennat]

The series needs to keep some perceived touring car DNA. Why don't they race something like racing tuned (but still the actual cars, not silhouette ones) M3s and RS4s? Could be based on the GTE rules, but I think switching to "super cars" would make the series pointless as there are already tons of GT series around. But "GTE" versions of hot saloons in the M3 sort of segment would open up the series to cars like Lexus, Jaguar, Mercedes, Cadillac... If the mentioned manufacturers are not interested, open it up to privately built cars.

[blackhand2010]

For me, I don't get why they don't go for a set of rules based around highly tuned road going hybrids, but with extreme limits on aero development.

It's already effectively an arms race between the German manufacturer's; why not go the whole hog and open the engine rules up enough so it encourages others into the fold.

Can't get any worse than the DRS induced snorefest it's been for the past few years.

[highdownforce]

[OvDrone]

I agree with trying out the GTE Sprint thing.

DTM is in such a weird no-man's land right now.

I enjoyed the races and drivers these past couple of seasons. But it's relevance is evaporating by the minute.

[V8 Fireworks]

The series needs to keep some perceived touring car DNA. Why don't they race something like racing tuned (but still the actual cars, not silhouette ones) M3s and RS4s? Could be based on the GTE rules, but I think switching to "super cars" would make the series pointless as there are already tons of GT series around. But "GTE" versions of hot saloons in the M3 sort of segment would open up the series to cars like Lexus, Jaguar, Mercedes, Cadillac... If the mentioned manufacturers are not interested, open it up to privately built cars.

 

Yes.  And I think Australia's Supercars series should also use such a format.  Essentially TCR but for six or eight cylinder rear drives instrad of four cylinder front drives.      Perhaps DTM and Supercars should have a chat?  It is clear that silhouette/spaceframe touring/GT formulas cannot attract manufacturers, yet manufacturers have huge interest in production-derived classes like GT3 and TCR.

 

" There is a open niche for 4-door performance sedans with more performance than GT4 and less than GT3, with rear wheel drive and six/eight cylinders (unlike the front wheel drive and four cylinders of TCR) -- akin to the current product but with manufacturer DNA, rather than generic control chassis that isn't enticing manufacturers. 

It might be seen (in the short term) as a retrograde step to go to production-based Giulia, Stiger or Lexus IS bodyshells and then apply BOP to the resultant racecars, but it might be just what is needed?  An actual Stinger twin-turbo or Giulia twin-turbo, with a lightly tuned production engine, and a suitable Hewland or Holinger sequential box behind it, might be the ticket to entice manufacturers? "

[PiperPa42]

But will the fans tolerate the (almost) silent Mission-8?

I don’t know if going to GTE rules would save DTM, but it would certainly be interesting to see. The current cars don’t have anything in common which the car they are supposed to be based on other than the badge.

[HistoryFan]

I don't think it's a real topic.

[Ben1445]

I'd be up for GTE based DTM. Or back to more touring car DTM. Or electric DTM. Or current DTM. Or pretty much any DTM with cool cars, good racing and professional drivers. 

[August]

This kind of a GTE sprint series would surely be cool to see. But I'm not sure if this is feasible. BMW and Porsche would probably be in but all other manufacturers would be more or less question marks. Ford may leave GTE once the current program comes to an end. Corvette does only IMSA, Aston only the WEC, so an additional DTM program might not come into question. And Ferraris in GTE don't quite seem to be such full-blown factory entries like other brands; would Ferrari enter cars into DTM then? Maybe some smart scheduling might allow the DTM program alongside the WEC, although the field would still not reach the current 18 cars.

 

I'm just a bit skeptical about this, I mean if there were enough cars. If DTM decides to switch to GT machinery, GT3 machines would be more economical, and there would be more manufacturers to fill the grid.

 

DTM has looked like a place for manufacturers to promote their sedans with high-performance silhouette cars. GT cars would be a step away from that, although the M8 actually looks almost more like an executive car than a sports car. That being said, maybe something needs to change in DTM for the series to survive. But I'm quite skeptical about the GTE idea. On the other hand, the current formula isn't attracting new manufacturers. And a switch to TCR would be quite a cut in performance. I'd like to see them adopting the VASC rules. I think those are the coolest looking touring cars in the world, and a shared platform could attract manufacturers to both series.

[TF110]

GTE can go faster than they do now. They're limited to not impose upon lmp2. So if GTE goes the way for DTM, they could speed them up by dropping some weight and/or increasing the power a little bit. If Porsche jumps in, BMW and Audi will stay. That opens up a chance for others like Aston Martin (which uses Mercedes engines now) and Ferrari. Those two specifically because they have customer cars. Ford would be ideal but I don't know if they'll sell many GT's.

[Vettelari]

I agree TF110. This all revolves around Porsche, in my opinion. Losing Mercedes hurts the series in a big way and they need a large luxury brand to help stabilize the series. Of all other manufacturers, Porsche seems to make the most sense. At the end of the day, if Porsche say yes to DTM if they can use their GTE car, I think they will switch to GTE cars. If Porsche specify a different kind of car, maybe that will be the way DTM goes. I think that they hold most of the power.

 

I'm not sure how this plays out in VAG's eyes, though. Which would cost them more money? Porsche developing a DTM spec car or Audi developing a GTE spec car? I'd guess that they'd prefer Audi to develop a GTE car that could be run in the WEC and that is where the GTE rumblings are coming from. Especially with BMW's new GTE car. Add into that the possibility of adding Ferrari or Aston Martin and it makes the GTE switch seem like the best option.

 

Lord knows that we do not need another GT3 spec series. ADAC already exists for that same reason and encroaching on that series makes little sense.

[ArrowsLivery]

Audi could upscale their R8 GT3, just like BMW USA was doing until this year with the M6 in IMSA. 

[Vettelari]

Audi could upscale their R8 GT3, just like BMW USA was doing until this year with the M6 in IMSA. 

 

True. Good point. Probably a lot easier than if Porsche had to build a current DTM car.