116 replies to this topic

[Vielleicht]

Seems like pretty big news. We knew an electric class was coming, but where it would fit in the class structure wasn't known.

https://www.autospor...switch-for-2020

 

"Electric cars will be the world championship. They absolutely, categorically will be the world championship," the source told Autosport.

 

The new structure and rules are the result of multiple FIA Technical Working Group meetings over the last year that have included a table of manufacturers, the FIA and World RX promoter IMG.

Leading manufacturers have recently reiterated their interest in electric rallycross.

Edited by Vielleicht, 07 February 2018 - 15:09.

[OvDrone]

If things remain at least at the level of excitment currently displayed by WRX races, yeah why not.

I dearly want Motorsport to remain highly relevant in the future.

Also, while we are at WRX: bring back the youtube coverage ffs!

[TheRacingElf]

Didn't care much for WRX but it's still sad to see where motorsport is heading.

 

For a long time the interest of the manufacturers were aligned with the interests of the fans but I feel manufacturers and fans are growing further and further apart.

There are ofcourse motorsport fans who would still be as enthusiastic about electric cars as they were about internal combustion engined cars but there is also a big group of motorsport fans who won't and I think the FIA doesn't take that into consideration enough.

 

By switching to electric cars will inevitably lead to a decrease in attendance, popularity and viewing figures, no matter how good the racing might be. For a lot of people motorsport is more than just good racing.

Edited by TheRacingElf, 07 February 2018 - 13:09.

[AustinF1]

Am I the only one who fiund this bit confusing?

 

 

Quizzed about the future of the existing Supercars in World RX from 2020, Autosport's source said: "Electric World RX cars doesn't mean the current Supercars go away.

 

"There's absolutely 100% commitment to keeping the current Supercars and not just as a European championship, as some form of international championship that can race outside Europe if the market dictates."

[AustinF1]

Didn't care much for WRX but it's still sad to see where motorsport is heading.

 

For a long time the interest of the manufacturers were aligned with the interests of the fans but I feel manufacturers and fans are growing further and further apart.

There are ofcourse motorsport fans who would still be as enthusiastic about electric cars as they were about internal combustion engined cars but there is also a big group of motorsport fans who won't and I think the FIA doesn't take that into consideration enough.

 

By switching to electric cars will inevitably lead to a decrease in attendance, popularity and viewing figures, no matter how good the racing might be. For a lot of people motorsport is more than just good racing.

There's an opportunity here.

[PiperPa42]

Am I the only one who fiund this bit confusing?

As I understand it the supercars will be bumped a tier down, there will still be a supercar championship, it just won't be the WRX championship.

[Ben1445]

"Electric cars will be the world championship. They absolutely, categorically will be the world championship,"

Wowzer. First time EVs replace ICE as a top class in a category? That's a big deal. 

Edited by Ben1445, 07 February 2018 - 15:34.

[Vielleicht]

Didn't care much for WRX but it's still sad to see where motorsport is heading.

 

For a long time the interest of the manufacturers were aligned with the interests of the fans but I feel manufacturers and fans are growing further and further apart.

There are ofcourse motorsport fans who would still be as enthusiastic about electric cars as they were about internal combustion engined cars but there is also a big group of motorsport fans who won't and I think the FIA doesn't take that into consideration enough.

 

By switching to electric cars will inevitably lead to a decrease in attendance, popularity and viewing figures, no matter how good the racing might be. For a lot of people motorsport is more than just good racing.

I have a theory about this, which came to me when I saw a two fairly young children in an electric car.

 

One of the reasons ICE racing is so popular to a large proportion of the current fan base compared to EV racing is because we have grown up with them and maybe more crucially owned cars that use them or perhaps even tinkered with them on many a happy weekend. That familiarity with own experience of engines and the comparison with racing engines is what brings about that feeling of connection, enjoyment and awe. When it comes to EV racing, for the majority of the population, that experience and familiarity is more or less wiped out and I think is why people feel quite cold to it. Which naturally leaves the current fans you mention who are still enthusiastic about it for, I don't know, technological reasons I guess.

 

But the people who own electric cars... or those kids who are growing up with them... they will not have that same issue. In fact they may even feel that same connection but to EVs. So whilst I can respect that EVs will inevitably lead to a decline in perhaps the more traditional fan-base, I don't think it will necessarily decline overall in the long run.

 

There's an opportunity here.

Indeed. I can only bring back the steam train analogy. Heritage railways are still immensely popular days out, there's no reason enthusiasts can't keep organising 'heritage' motorsports events. It'd be more grassroots, probably less money involved, but to some it would be heaven. For that matter, some existing series could pull off a transition to being deliberately 'heritage' and make a commercial success of it.

[Vielleicht]

For curiosities sake, here's an example of an EV rallycross car. I stress example because I would imagine a field of manufacturer/racing team prepared top class RX racers would be more impressive than a converted Peugeot 207. After all, remember how that original demo car for Formula E was very much different to what we have today.

Also this

Edited by Vielleicht, 07 February 2018 - 16:07.

[Burai]

It makes sense. EV's are very well suited for rallicross. The short race format and the high torque characteristics of an electric powertrain mean that the EV's would beat the supercars' laptimes very easily unless you were to artificially restrain them.

 

To have the EV's treated as a sideshow to a slower main event would be confusing to the public and the legitimacy of the championships. To slow the EV's to save face would go down like a lead balloon with the manufacturers who've only recently got on board with WRX.

[Ben1445]

^ And this is why it is a big deal. It's taking over organically, rather than by artificial interference. 

[Kalmake]

^ And this is why it is a big deal. It's taking over organically, rather than by artificial interference. 

I wouldn't say organic until EVs can beat ICE in a fair fight. Organic victory would be something like taking Pikes Peak record.

 

Beating a 600hp ICE at something is nice, but that ICE could easily be 2000hp if not for regulation.

[Ben1445]

I wouldn't say organic until EVs can beat ICE in a fair fight. Organic victory would be something like taking Pikes Peak record.

 

Beating a 600hp ICE at something is nice, but that ICE could easily be 2000hp if not for regulation.

And an EV could pump out well over 1MW but it would only last handful of laps with current battery tech - which is handy considering RX is only a handful of laps. And then there's still all of that instant torque an electric motor is beautifully capable of. As long as the weight and power levels are comparable, for this category in these conditions it is organic. 

[JHSingo]

Ugh, really?

 

Electric cars just don't do it for me. They leave me completely cold - there's nothing there to get excited over. I hoped this electric revolution would be limited to a couple of bespoke series at most rather than transforming series that are already fine as they are.

 

Oh well. Better enjoy these last few years before everything starts to sound like like a dentist's drill rather than a race car.

[Fatgadget]

Didn't care much for WRX but it's still sad to see where motorsport is heading.

 

For a long time the interest of the manufacturers were aligned with the interests of the fans but I feel manufacturers and fans are growing further and further apart.

There are ofcourse motorsport fans who would still be as enthusiastic about electric cars as they were about internal combustion engined cars but there is also a big group of motorsport fans who won't and I think the FIA doesn't take that into consideration enough.

 

By switching to electric cars will inevitably lead to a decrease in attendance, popularity and viewing figures, no matter how good the racing might be. For a lot of people motorsport is more than just good racing.

Really! Far as I recall the origins of RallyX had nothing to do with what you seem to be  implying. It was a television invention far as I recall. Nothing to do with what the fans wanted nor was it a manufacture agenda.  I don't see anything untoward moving with the times. Like it or not Leccy cars the future mate.

[Vielleicht]

I wouldn't say organic until EVs can beat ICE in a fair fight. Organic victory would be something like taking Pikes Peak record.

All eyes on VW at Pikes Peak this year then. They say they want to beat the EV record, but would not be surprised in the least if internally they're going for the all out record.

[Fatgadget]

Ugh, really?

 

Electric cars just don't do it for me. They leave me completely cold - there's nothing there to get excited over. I hoped this electric revolution would be limited to a couple of bespoke series at most rather than transforming series that are already fine as they are.

 

Oh well. Better enjoy these last few years before everything starts to sound like like a dentist's drill rather than a race car.

Au Contre! Anything electric does it for me. Then again I am a spark

[chunder27]

IMG want this because they are utterly obsessed with getting manufacturers involved.

 

They had a brief period when a few were two years ago but the expense did not justfy the involvement so a lot pulled out this year, but last year their series, was utterly predictable and boring.

 

This is the way they get manufacturers involved.  

 

Leaves most people cold, just like other electric formulae, certainly not great to watch live.  but IMG won't give a toss, they never have since they took over running the top levels of rallycross, all they have ever cared about is brand growth and making money.  Leave em to it and forget it ever existed.

[Ben1445]

IMG want this because they are utterly obsessed with getting manufacturers involved.

 

They had a brief period when a few were two years ago but the expense did not justfy the involvement so a lot pulled out this year, but last year their series, was utterly predictable and boring.

 

This is the way they get manufacturers involved.  

Sometimes we all have to grow up and realise that money talks. If this is the money is and where the manufacturers want to be, then it's damn sure as hell going to swap to being electric. You'd have to be one damn stubborn, deep pocketed individual to ignore this natural inflection point and stick with ICE. You'd be left with a series that uses increasingly irrelevant tech and only appeals to the ageing purists - not exactly a great business model for growth. 

 

Leaves most people cold, just like other electric formulae, certainly not great to watch live.  but IMG won't give a toss, they never have since they took over running the top levels of rallycross, all they have ever cared about is brand growth and making money.  Leave em to it and forget it ever existed.

Have you done a comprehensive global survey to back up this claim? No? Thought not. 

Edited by Ben1445, 07 February 2018 - 19:33.

[chunder27]

Have you then?  No, thought not.

 

It's a bloody forum mate, who cares.

[Ben1445]

I'm not the one making bold unproved claims. 

[MatsNorway]

Rallycross cars are wicked fast machines. It is no small feat for a EV to beat them. Even with the restrictors on the Rallycross cars. they have some 550-600hp and does 0-100 in 1.9 sec

 

They are decently light too with 1200kg+

 

And as mentioned Rallycross is the perfect platform to make a racing EV.  Short races, low speeds and torque is greatly needed.

 

That said.. Rallycross was faster some 30years ago than they are today.. and they are not getting harder to drive.. so the EVs better be faster a few years from now if you ask me. I want to watch fast machines with nutty Finns and Norwegians driving them.

 

Video proof.

 

[boomn]

Sometimes we all have to grow up and realise that money talks. If this is the money is and where the manufacturers want to be, then it's damn sure as hell going to swap to being electric. You'd have to be one damn stubborn, deep pocketed individual to ignore this natural inflection point and stick with ICE. You'd be left with a series that uses increasingly irrelevant tech and only appeals to the ageing purists - not exactly a great business model for growth.

It is easily possible for the money and manufacturers to push any series to a change that doesn't appeal to the some large portion of the audience.  If the audience is loyal enough or if they can win over their audience, that's great.  But if they lose a significant enough part of their audience in chasing after manufacturer's, that is "not exactly a great business model for growth" either

 

There is a balance that every motor sport needs to choose between entertainment and tech relevance, and in the last few years it seams that tech relevance has started to pull hard in the opposite direction of entertainment. 

Edited by boomn, 07 February 2018 - 19:49.

[Ben1445]

Hence why they're not getting rid of the ICE based RX completely, only making EV the top headline class. Something for everyone, hey? Only the world championship is awarded to the person driving the EV rather than the ICE. 

Edited by Ben1445, 07 February 2018 - 19:56.

[Vielleicht]

It is easily possible for the money and manufacturers to push any series to a change that doesn't appeal to the some large portion of the audience.  If the audience is loyal enough or if they can win over their audience, that's great.  But if they lose a significant enough part of their audience in chasing after manufacturer's, that is "not exactly a great business model for growth" either

 

There is a balance that every motor sport needs to choose between entertainment and tech relevance, and in the last few years it seams that tech relevance has started to pull hard in the opposite direction of entertainment. 

Has it? Part of the entertainment for me has always been watching machines at the front of technical relevance and latest advancements. If the ICE ceases to be tech relevant, it loses some of it's shine in my eyes.

 

That's not to say I don't enjoy ICE anymore - I do, it's a big part of my life up to this point - just doesn't have the same 'cutting edge zing' that it used to. In that light having an EV top class and an ICE support/second class does seem like a pretty exciting and natural way to go about it from WRX as both options are still available on the same ticket, with the cutting edge relevant class being top billing. I would definitely consider going to a race meeting now.

 

None of this solves how I would watch all the other races though, hope they sort out decent coverage access.

Edited by Vielleicht, 07 February 2018 - 20:09.

[boomn]

Has it? Part of the entertainment for me has always been watching machines at the front of technical relevance and latest advancements. If the ICE ceases to be tech relevant, it loses some of it's shine in my eyes.

Good point, but us motorsport fans are a divided group and many do put various other factors ahead of relevance.  And for those kinds of fans, the push for relevance feels like selling out and being compromised by corporate interests that don't have a passion for it like they do (though that's not entirely accurate of car companies either)

Edited by boomn, 07 February 2018 - 20:28.

[Vielleicht]

Good point, but us motorsport fans are a divided group and many do put various other factors ahead of relevance.  And for those kinds of fans, the push for relevance feels like selling out and being compromised by corporate interests that don't have a passion for it like they do (though that's not entirely accurate of car companies either)

True enough. Motorsport is at a tricky crossroad with the EV revolution on the roads so divisions are probably starker than they have been before, which might be why everything feels very doom and gloom 'EVs are the death of motorsport' to some.

 

I actually see EV racing as a win-win, allowing motorsport to get out of the push-me-pull-you argument over the ICE being 'green and road relevant' which has plagued racing in recent years. If the Manufacturer classes go all out for EV/green tech, that leaves a lovely sub category for pure ICE to flourish with cheaper, passion based racing (though I suspect ethanol may become the fuel of least objection over petrol in that case).

Edited by Vielleicht, 07 February 2018 - 20:43.

[boomn]

Hence why they're not getting rid of the ICE based RX completely, only making EV the top headline class. Something for everyone, hey? Only the world championship is awarded to the person driving the EV rather than the ICE. 

That's seems like an awkward compromise to keep the current Supercars around.  I can see it working well if the new electric cars are significantly quicker than the current Supercars.  Otherwise they might hobble the current cars to help elevate the headline class, and that would feel very artificial, like "selling out" 

 

I think the whole thing most likely will work out for WRX because sponsors want to be in the top series no matter what and drivers and teams want to win the highest championship no matter what.  And fans want to watch the best drivers, not the second tier drivers.  I think that's true of all future EV racing.  But that's also where it breaks down a bit for me personally... to see racing series chasing after the manufacturer and sponsor money even if the people involved in the series might prefer ICE cars.  And drivers and teams chasing after money and glory in electric series when many are actually passionate petrolheads.  I understand they all need to make money to survive, but that's not the same as the passion that fans usually ascribe to those people

[chunder27]

Duh

 

They cant get rid of the original cars because otherwise no-one would go and watch it!

[Ben1445]

Duh

 

They cant get rid of the original cars because otherwise no-one would go and watch it!

Bull. Sh*t. 

 

You wouldn't go and see it. Don't ascribe that absolute onto everyone else. If the racing is good, people will watch. 

[Vielleicht]

But that's also where it breaks down a bit for me personally... to see racing series chasing after the manufacturer and sponsor money even if the people involved in the series might prefer ICE cars.  And drivers and teams chasing after money and glory in electric series when many are actually passionate petrolheads.  I understand they all need to make money to survive, but that's not the same as the passion that fans usually ascribe to those people

I think that's inevitable in a transition phase, it will take a generation or so for that feeling to die down. Drivers can still have a passion for racing EVs though, and they would undoubtedly be more popular than their sell out colleagues for it.

Edited by Vielleicht, 07 February 2018 - 21:19.

[boomn]

True enough. Motorsport is at a tricky crossroad with the EV revolution on the roads so divisions are probably starker than they have been before, which might be why everything feels very doom and gloom 'EVs are the death of motorsport' to some.

It's not just about EVs.  Just look at the how we got the current F1 engine regulations and who is on which sides in the fights over the next gen F1 engines regs.  Racing has become more expensive each decade to the point where most any series can't survive without significant manufacturer involvement.  So they chase after manufacturers to make entice them or give in to manufacturer demands.  Downsized turbo's are more "green and road relevant" for the large manufacturers and therefore the new thing, even if the entertainment product suffers in the eyes of many fans.  That decision making process alone is enough to draw a lot of ire.  EVs are along the exact same lines, just greatly amplified in their divisiveness

[Vielleicht]

It's not just about EVs.  Just look at the how we got the current F1 engine regulations and who is on which sides in the fights over the next gen F1 engines regs.  Racing has become more expensive each decade to the point where most any series can't survive without significant manufacturer involvement.  So they chase after manufacturers to make entice them or give in to manufacturer demands.  Downsized turbo's are more "green and road relevant" for the large manufacturers and therefore the new thing, even if the entertainment product suffers in the eyes of many fans.  That decision making process alone is enough to draw a lot of ire. EVs are along the exact same lines, just greatly amplified in their divisiveness

Totally understand where you are coming from and it's definitely a downside of having manufacturer involvement in motorsport, especially in modern times. Though I have to say, it does feel like EV racing has become something of a scapegoat for everything that is wrong with the wider health of motorsport sometimes.

 

On a slight side not:

I just cannot believe that EV racing is fundamentally less entertaining as some sort of universal constant - Formula E for example has consistently produced entertaining races with fascinating narratives, sub stories and plenty of passion. I truly believe many cannot, or refuse to, see through the mental barrier than is the unfamiliar EV, because at it's heart it is still motorsport through and through. I also think that that is to be expected, it's rarely enjoyable to see something you love change, taken away completely or replaced with something unfamiliar, so I don't really mind that there are many people who will find it a challenge to convert and a good proportion probably never will. But claims that it's just fundamentally not as exiting? I don't buy it for one second.

[chunder27]

Oh I am sure there are countless people who would think electric rallycross is amazing, the best thing they have ever seen.

 

Then they would watch a few youtube clips of the 90's and realise how wrong they were.

 

Someone will watch anything related to cars, people even go to restaurants and film rich cretins driving out of them and make thousands from youtube doing it. 

 

There is no accounting for taste.

 

Sorry fella, Formula E is the most insipid, uninspiring, loathsome thing that ahs ever had the temerity of the word motorsport attached to it.

 

It is now a rolling test workshop for car engineers, that is all. Once they find what they want it will die.

 

Young people will like it as they know nothing else, they will feel it is fresh, new, interesting. And eventually that generation will take over.  But while there are those of us that know what real motorsport is, there is hopefully only a limited scope for this rubbish

[Ben1445]

Whatever, dude. 

 

 

Sorry fella, Formula E is the most insipid, uninspiring, loathsome thing that ahs ever had the temerity of the word motorsport attached to it.

 

I loved this bit this most. I've never felt bitterness oozing out of words on a screen so vividly 

[boomn]

Though I have to say, it does feel like EV racing has become something of a scapegoat for everything that is wrong with the wider health of motorsport sometimes.

 

Yes, I think you're right.  It is at the same time a scapegoat to some people and a coal mine canary to others

 

On a slight side not:

I just cannot believe that EV racing is fundamentally less entertaining as some sort of universal constant - Formula E for example has consistently produced entertaining races with fascinating narratives, sub stories and plenty of passion. I truly believe many cannot, or refuse to, see through the mental barrier than is the unfamiliar EV, because at it's heart it is still motorsport through and through. I also think that that is to be expected, it's rarely enjoyable to see something you love change, taken away completely or replaced with something unfamiliar, so I don't really mind that there are many people who will find it a challenge to convert and a good proportion probably never will. But claims that it's just fundamentally not as exiting? I don't buy it for one second.

I've really enjoyed following Formula E.  But for me the things that are most exciting about it are the close racing, unforgiving circuits and grip-limited cars.  I think I would enjoy it more if they had a good ICE noise.  Like you said earlier, that is atleast partly generational, however:

 

I caught part of an Indycar and Pirelli World Challenge weekend in person last year.  My first live motorsport experience.  The Indycars were impressively fast and the drivers are generally higher quality, but the GT cars were so much more captivating to me because of the variety, character and volume of the sounds.  The type of sounds gave the GT cars real "presence" that unfortunately doesn't seem to translate through recorded audio.  They felt louder, there was a lot of detail I didn't realize you can hear live, and things such as shotgun-like overruns that you could feel in your chest even a couple hundred feet back at the fence.  The droning v6 turbo Indycars sounded largely similar to the TV.  It made enough of an impression on me that I hope to drive twice as far this year to see an IMSA race instead of staying close for Indycar.

 

But I think this works in Formula E's favor.  (I haven't seen them in person, but I'm imagining that they don't have the kind of presence and character that ICE engines can provide.)  The type of engine sound can still matter to some on video, but at least Formula E and other EVs are on equal footing where no kind of car or engine can truly communicate "presence".  

[Vielleicht]

Yes, I think you're right.  It is at the same time a scapegoat to some people and a coal mine canary to others

 

I've really enjoyed following Formula E.  But for me the things that are most exciting about it are the close racing, unforgiving circuits and grip-limited cars.  I think I would enjoy it more if they had a good ICE noise.  Like you said earlier, that is atleast partly generational, however:

 

I caught part of an Indycar and Pirelli World Challenge weekend in person last year.  My first live motorsport experience.  The Indycars were impressively fast and the drivers are generally higher quality, but the GT cars were so much more captivating to me because of the variety, character and volume of the sounds.  The type of sounds gave the GT cars real "presence" that unfortunately doesn't seem to translate through recorded audio.  They felt louder, there was a lot of detail I didn't realize you can hear live, and things such as shotgun-like overruns that you could feel in your chest even a couple hundred feet back at the fence.  The droning v6 turbo Indycars sounded largely similar to the TV.  It made enough of an impression on me that I hope to drive twice as far this year to see an IMSA race instead of staying close for Indycar.

 

But I think this works in Formula E's favor.  (I haven't seen them in person, but I'm imagining that they don't have the kind of presence and character that ICE engines can provide.)  The type of engine sound can still matter to some on video, but at least Formula E and other EVs are on equal footing where no kind of car or engine can truly communicate "presence".  

It's certainly a different experience. They are not as quiet as popular 'silent racing' myths will claim, if one goes by you will definitely know about it - though if you are a couple of hundred feet away it won't have a really noticable impact (one of the reasons the FE street circuits plan works so well for fans and neighbors alike). You can hear all of the sounds that would be drowned out by the ICE noise, like the tires working, components being battered by the bumps and on top of that the electric motor is much more complex a sound that comes over on video, especially when they step on it out of a hairpin or tight corner. I think it's pretty fascinating - especially as there are difference in the sounds that are more pronounced in person, the only one that comes through as clearly different on video is the DS power-train, but they all have their own quirks. The relative volume even has it's own benefit in that you can actually hear commentary and people next to you. The one thing I didn't actually enjoy about going to Le Mans in particular was that half the time you have to shout at the person next to you for them to hear you, use in-ear headphones to hear radio commentary and continually get people to repeat what they were saying because a 458 decided to scream past at that precise moment - it's not so much of a problem for a short duration but after a while it's a right pain. At an FE event, there is no such issue, which can makes things just a little easier overall.

 

So I really think there are upsides and downsides. They are each their own experiences and I like both of them for different reasons, it's never been a case of electric OR internal combustion for me. I wouldn't want ICE racing cars to go away completely in the same way I don't the steam engine to disappear off the face of the earth (yes I've wheeled out the steam train thing again) because it's such a different and unique experience that should be preserved for future generations to experience too. How to do that in a way that doesn't end up being just classic car racing would probably be the biggest challenge, but I do think it's very potentially doable with the right vision.

[Tsarwash]

 

Leaves most people cold, just like other electric formulae, certainly not great to watch live. 

Proof please for your unfounded claims, presented as fact. Have you actually watch any EV racing live, or are you just spouting as usual ? 

[loki]

As long as they change the logo, get rid of grid girls and move it to pay TV I'm all for it...

[djr900]

I have watched formula E and found it boring,

also watched the electric isle of man TT race and found that boring too,

seen electric cars & bikes at Goodwood FOS , also boring

I have tried to like it, but it just doesn't work for me

 

I think electric Cars, Motorcycles, Vans & Trucks for the road are a good idea ,

but I think myself and many other people will lose interest when motorsport goes electric

 

{ before anyone asks - no I haven't done a survey to prove anything , just like the EV fans haven't either }

[pdac]

No appeal for me. Having said that, I think manufacturers go racing for very particular reasons of their own, which generally has very little to do with pleasing fans (if fans are pleased with their efforts, then that is just a bonus).

 

With regard to EV racing in general, I think Vielleicht is right about the feeling of connection fans have with ICE, but I don't see the same connection happening with the new generations and EV. In general, I think the new generations are a lot less in to tinkering with things (at least, on a hardware level) than mine - and that's where the connection starts.

[learningtobelost]

Something, something, something... they'd have asked for faster horses. 

 

A bold move from IMG, that I hope pays off. As others have said, this is the perfect venue for EVs. Along with Formula E taking a step forward next year, and the Electric Production Car Series, there is much to look forward to. 

[JHSingo]

On a slight side not:

I just cannot believe that EV racing is fundamentally less entertaining as some sort of universal constant - Formula E for example has consistently produced entertaining races with fascinating narratives, sub stories and plenty of passion. I truly believe many cannot, or refuse to, see through the mental barrier than is the unfamiliar EV, because at it's heart it is still motorsport through and through. I also think that that is to be expected, it's rarely enjoyable to see something you love change, taken away completely or replaced with something unfamiliar, so I don't really mind that there are many people who will find it a challenge to convert and a good proportion probably never will. But claims that it's just fundamentally not as exiting? I don't buy it for one second.

 

My big problem with Formula E is that it just doesn't feel like it's proper racing.

 

We've long bemoaned drivers having to conserve fuel and tyres in Formula One, rather than being able to race flat out. Well, that's exactly the same as in Formule E, except it's with batteries that will inevitably go flat. It's about who can preserve their battery life the best right from the get go, and that doesn't do anything for me. Races feel like they been managed through being careful with your battery life, rather than any particular skill from the driver. Maybe in rallycross, where it's sprint racing, that problem won't be as evident, and maybe it can retain its 'balls to the wall' racing appeal. But I fear, more generally, that's something that will be lost from motorsport as electric racing becomes more and more common.

 

Moreover, my problem with electric cars is that I'm incapable of switching off the part in my brain that makes me feel like it's a step backwards from where we've reached. Great, cars now can't complete a single race distance, aren't particularly quick, and take ages to charge up. Woo! Progress! As this is a motorsport forum, I'll say that until Formula E cars are demonstrably superior in all aspects over, say, F1 cars, then I'm afraid I can't get excited about it.

 

Maybe I'm just a Luddite.

Edited by JHSingo, 08 February 2018 - 15:46.

[Vielleicht]

Moreover, my problem with electric cars is that I'm incapable of switching off the part in my brain that makes me feel like it's a step backwards from where we've reached. Great, cars now can't complete a single race distance, aren't particularly quick, and take ages to charge up. Woo! Progress! As this is a motorsport forum, I'll say that until Formula E cars are demonstrably superior in all aspects over, say, F1 cars, then I'm afraid I can't get excited about it.

 

Maybe I'm just a Luddite.

I totally get this - I spent a considerable amount of time moaning when Concorde stopped flying and felt very strongly that it was an outrageous, utterly lamentable backwards step step. I have since, however, switched off that part of my brain as you put it to appreciate that out and out speed is not the primary measure of progress anymore, and that the real goal is to maximise expectations of practicality (be it range, speed, comfort, economics, whatever) all whilst, crucially, the environmental impact tends to zero.

 

And I have found that, personally, to be a beautiful new measure of progress.

 

I guess that has led me to being vastly more accepting of things like Formula E and this WRX news than I perhaps otherwise would have been. The excitement isn't so much 'how fast/far can they go compared to ICE?', but more 'how fast can we get them to go given they are electric?' ...sort of. It's hard to articulate, but it's one of the reasons I don't really like comparing ICE and EV racing in much more depth than there are upsides and downsides to each.

 

But no, I totally understand what you mean on the progress front and I know it's a very hard thing to change that mindset, let alone finding the desire to change it in the first place.

Edited by Vielleicht, 08 February 2018 - 17:32.

[Vielleicht]

Interesting new video about the STARD electric rallycross car and what it's like to drive: 

 

Some tech specs that can be found within:

- 544hp (~400kW)

- 800Nm of torque

- could go up to 1000hp (~745kW) with 'no problem'

- two motors, one front one rear

- Battery is 160kg and 26kWh

 

Not really representative of what the WRX cars will be, but a good benchmark fro when the full specs are revealed.

[Ben1445]

I missed this bit originally: 

 

It is understood the new electric cars will be based on a common carbon monocoque tub and safety structure that will be supplied as part of a chassis kit, expected to also include suspension and braking systems.

The FIA is expected to issue an invite to tender for the chassis kit in the coming weeks, with an additional invite to tender for batteries.

It is believed that motors will not be from a single supplier and neither will the composite bodyshells that will sit on top of the carbon chassis, allowing for different models of cars to be used. 

So we're basically getting some DTM/Group B/Peugeot 208 T16 Pikes Peak type electric RallyCross creations? That sounds... potentially a bit mental.

 

Just hope they don't put too much restriction on power. With such short races, it would be cool to see them say 'Here's your chassis and battery, stick some motors in it and go crazy with the power levels', but the chances of that in FIA-land perhaps aren't too high... 

[chunder27]

Great for tv

 

But about as appealing as watching Segways live

 

Depends what IMG want, we all know what that is, money. Always has been

[Ben1445]

Great for tv

 

But about as appealing as watching Segways live

 

Depends what IMG want, we all know what that is, money. Always has been

We get it. You don't like electric racing. 

 

And a rhetorical point: If it's always been that money is the primary motivation for racing, be it selling cars, advertising a product or winning prize money - and therefore making money gave birth to motorsport - why is it suddenly a problem if the money is now in electric racing? That's how a monetary society works. Shock horror. 

[Vielleicht]

I missed this bit originally: 

So we're basically getting some DTM/Group B/Peugeot 208 T16 Pikes Peak type electric RallyCross creations? That sounds... potentially a bit mental.

 

Just hope they don't put too much restriction on power. With such short races, it would be cool to see them say 'Here's your chassis and battery, stick some motors in it and go crazy with the power levels', but the chances of that in FIA-land perhaps aren't too high... 

With VW doing a Pikes Peak EV this year, I think it would be quite cool to see more manufacturers have a go at pushing that EV/all out record. If WRX can help facilitate that capability as a starting point (there are 9 manufacturers interested apparently) to see something like that, that sounds very fun.

 

And a rhetorical point: If it's always been that money is the primary motivation for racing, be it selling cars, advertising a product or winning prize money - and therefore making money gave birth to motorsport - why is it suddenly a problem if the money is now in electric racing? That's how a monetary society works. Shock horror. 

Whilst this is true, if there is a financial viability to continue ICE racing it will continue happen as well. And I still think there's a good case for that being possible, just perhaps without the big manufacturers - which would actually be desirable to a good number of fans.

 

Money dictating what series are a successes or failures shouldn't really be a problem for race fans because if ICE racing makes money it will exist and if EV racing makes money it will also exist. It wouldn't be sensible to demand one or the other exists if it just loses money like a leaking tap. If there was to be a ban on ICE racing, say, complaints about EVs taking over would be a lot more warranted in my opinion.

Edited by Vielleicht, 11 February 2018 - 13:09.

[chunder27]

It has not been a part of rallycross at all since it began, until IMG got involved. It was a sport for semi pro's and rich men. That is now gone completely at the top level, a Schanche, Gollop Hansen would not be viable now. 

 

As someone who has watched it since 1985, then the current state of the sport worries me immensely.  They want electric for one reason only, manufacturers. As that also brings money.   What happens to the rest of the sport? very few nations will go electric, where is the future of normal rallycross?  We can't have a proper European series( to try and leave WRX)  because IMG want millions to buy the title off them, something that never even existed before they became involved.  They have taken the sport away from its roots in a lot of countries, into awful purpose built car park tracks.  And now they are preventing it from going back to its root even it wanted to.

 

So yes I loath IMG and what they are doing to a sport I have loved since I was a teenager and even before then.