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Grand Prize of America


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#1 DCapps

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 20:32

From the minutes of the meeting of the Contest Board of the American Automobile Association held on 8 January 1929, at the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel, New York City:

 

TITLE "GRAND PRIZE OF AMERICA" VOTED INDIANAPOLIS "500"

The position that the Indianapolis 500-mile race had always held in connection with American racing was drawn to the attention of the Board. It was the unanimous opinion of the Board that the annual 500 mile race by the Indianapolis Speedway Association be awarded the distinction of the title "Grand Prize of America." It is the custom in European countries for the governing motor club to organize each year a distance race under the title of Gran Prize of that particular country. The American Automobile Association no longer organizes races, but since the most important race in other countries is always its Grand Prize event, it was felt that it was fitting that title be conferred on the Indianapolis event.

 

Present:

Chairman Rickenbacker

F.A. Croslemire

W.D. Edenburn

George M. Fearons, Jr.

Thomas J. Little, Jr.

T.E. Myers

Ray W. Sherman

Ira Vail

Val Haresnape, Secretary

 

Absent:

David Beecroft

Chester W. Howell

D.H. Jeffries

Thomas Milton

Arthur C. Pillsbury

Douglas Shelor



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#2 Tim Murray

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 20:59

Fascinating. So does this mean that the Indianapolis 500 races which counted towards the WDC between 1950 and 1960 (plus presumably all Indy 500s since 1929) were GPs?

#3 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 21:27

My reading of it would be that the AAA are substituting 'Grand Prize' for Grande Épreuve here. When the International calendar was announced by the CSI it was always done in two stages - the Grande Épreuves first in the September meeting and then the rest during the Paris Salon. The 500 always appeared in the first list.

 

I've seen German versions of the early calendars for various years which refer to the 500 as the Grosser Preis von Amerika. However, they also sometimes refer to the RAC Tourist Trophy as the Grosser Preis von England so - even ignoring the geographical inexactitude - I reckon something is getting lost in the translation there.

 

And when there were grand plans in 1936/37, based around Roosevelt Raceway, the never-built Los Angeles Raceway and other pipe dreams, there were suggestions of reviving the American Grand Prix ...



#4 DCapps

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 04:57

Actually, they certainly meant to use the term Grand Prize.

 

The minutes from the Contest Board meeting held on 6 January 1930, has a lengthy discussion regarding trophies, including the donation by the Automobile Club of America of its Automobile Club of America Gold Cup to be offered to the winner of the Grand Prix of Indianapolis.

 

In addition, there was also discussion and a resolution passed concerning the Automobile Club of America offering the Vanderbilt Cup as the prize for the winner of a stock car competition consisting of several trials: standing start, 100 yards; flying start, half mile; flying start, one mile; and, flying start, two miles. There would be a points system used to determine the winner of the trials. The stock cars eligible to compete would be fully equipped as displayed on showroom floors and in "the greatest numbers during the four months preceding the trials."

 

Interesting what one finds in the archives....


Edited by DCapps, 10 February 2018 - 04:58.


#5 Michael Ferner

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Posted 10 February 2018 - 07:41

Don is absolutely right, it was the Grand Prize of the ACA, like it was the Grand Prix of the ACF. It wasn't until much later that these terms got meddled with.

#6 uechtel

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:38

Fascinating. So does this mean that the Indianapolis 500 races which counted towards the WDC between 1950 and 1960 (plus presumably all Indy 500s since 1929) were GPs?

 

Seemingly, but obviously not (always) run with Grand-Prix-cars...

 

It depends on your definition, what you regard as a Grand Prix. There are even races for touring cars with that title. But would you therefore take them up in your list of Grand Prix races?

 

The problem is, that it seems to be a double meaning. On one hand it´s just a term, that can be used by any organziation, in any kind of sport, usually to point out it´s most important event of the year (like the "Grand Prix of Club ABC", "Grand Prix of City X" etc.). But in the narrowest sense (in motorsport) "Grand Prix racing" defines international races organized by a National Automobile Club sanctioned by FIA/AIACR under the title "Grand Prix of Country XYZ" and run according to the current International Grand-Prix-Formula. So that leaves your space for interpretation where to draw your line, for example whether the Indy 500s of 1925 to 1927 were Grands Prix or not (did obviously not yet carry the term 'Grand Prize' in the title, but ran to the Formula and were Grande Epreuves as well as rounds of the World Championship), whether the Monaco GPs of 1929 to 1932 were 'proper' GPs (orgainzed by a national club, but not strictly ran according to the formula and no Grande Epreuves yet), or how to deal with the Swiss GP of 1935 ('Grand Prix' title: yes - formula: yes - European Championship: yes - Grande Epreuve: no). Also there were years when there was a GP de l´ACF and a French GP in separate events...



#7 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 13:05

And where do the 1908 - 1911 Savannah races and the subsequent ones elsewhere stand in this?

They were AAA races and carried the name. Was Indianapolis intended to be the successor to the name?

#8 Michael Ferner

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 13:48

No, they weren't AAA races. The Grand Prize races were always organized and sanctioned by the AC of America. When the ACA ceased to exist, the AAA took over its "assets", including the right to award the Grand Prize title. That was in 1928, if I recall correctly, maybe '29. The last "proper" Grand Prize had been run in 1916.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 12 February 2018 - 13:50.


#9 RA Historian

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 16:16

"It depends on your definition, what you regard as a Grand Prix. "

 

In the early 1990s  the city of Des Moines, Iowa, ran a street race headlined by a Trans Am. The first one was in 1990 and I was there for a couple magazines. The first night I turned on the TV in the hotel room to get the news. What did I see but a local info babe breathlessly 'explain' what Grand Prix racing was.  She told us that most of us have never seen a Grand Prix before and that a Grand Prix was a race on city streets. She babbled on about street racing and Grand Prix, spouting nonsense all the way. Her pasted on smile never varied as she informed all of us in the great unwashed. I did not know whether to laugh or to cry.

Tom



#10 DCapps

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Posted 12 February 2018 - 16:39

Only the 1916 Grand Prize for the Gold Cup of the Automobile Club of America was held under a sanction issued by the AAA Contest Board, Sanction No. 951.

 

In the 1920s, the ACA rejoined the AAA as a member club, as did many of those clubs who had followed the ACA out of the AAA, such as the AC of Savannah.



#11 uechtel

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 13:55

By accident I found this earlier posting by Hans Etzrodt, which may be interesting also under this context:

 

 

I found one more snippet that caught my attention while leafing through my magazines. Thought it could be entertaining for some of you gentlemen.  ;)

The International Sporting Commission [CSI] of the A.I.A.C.R. held their traditional fall meeting in Paris on 23. September 1932. In No.80, pg.5 of the AUTOMOBIL-REVUE the Grands Prix dates for the 1933 season plus comments were announced as follows:

23. April: Grand Prix of Monaco
30. or 31. May: Grand Prix of America
[Indy 500]
4. June: Grand Prix of France
25. June: Grand Prix of Italy
9. July: Grand Prix of Belgium
23. July: Grand Prix of Germany
2. September: Grand Prix of Great Britain
24. September: Grand Prix of Spain

It is noteworthy that the circuit race of Monte Carlo has now moved up also into the row of international "Grands Prix"; thereby this event now belongs ultimately to the international races of the official first class.

A further important point in the talks formed the regulation about the application of the title "Grand Prix". It was decided to leave the decision about the choice of the title "Grand Prix" to each national A. C., who at their own discretion can name events with this designation in their territory. Decisive for the bestowal of the title remains the significance of the race. Only an occasion of international importance may be named with it. The bestowal of the title "Grand Prix" in conjunction with the country’s name is solely reserved for the national A. C. in question.

 


 



#12 DCapps

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 22:02

Hans Etzrodt, on 16 Oct 2005 - 06:06, said:snapback.png

I found one more snippet that caught my attention while leafing through my magazines. Thought it could be entertaining for some of you gentlemen.  ;)

The International Sporting Commission [CSI] of the A.I.A.C.R. held their traditional fall meeting in Paris on 23. September 1932. In No.80, pg.5 of the AUTOMOBIL-REVUE the Grands Prix dates for the 1933 season plus comments were announced as follows:

23. April: Grand Prix of Monaco
30. or 31. May: Grand Prix of America
[Indy 500]
4. June: Grand Prix of France
25. June: Grand Prix of Italy
9. July: Grand Prix of Belgium
23. July: Grand Prix of Germany
2. September: Grand Prix of Great Britain
24. September: Grand Prix of Spain

It is noteworthy that the circuit race of Monte Carlo has now moved up also into the row of international "Grands Prix"; thereby this event now belongs ultimately to the international races of the official first class.

A further important point in the talks formed the regulation about the application of the title "Grand Prix". It was decided to leave the decision about the choice of the title "Grand Prix" to each national A. C., who at their own discretion can name events with this designation in their territory. Decisive for the bestowal of the title remains the significance of the race. Only an occasion of international importance may be named with it. The bestowal of the title "Grand Prix" in conjunction with the country’s name is solely reserved for the national A. C. in question.

 

Among that of several others, it was Hans' work, as in this particular instance, that finally led me to truly realize what a load of complete, pretentious malarkey so much of what was being passed as Historical Fact more than likely wasn't in motor sport history and especially when done so by many supposed "auto racing historians."

 

 

Postscript: I do not spare myself from being among the malarkey-peddlers, to say nothing as being as pretentious and as wrong as the worst of them.


Edited by DCapps, 16 February 2018 - 15:03.