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#1 Bob Riebe

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 01:53

I found this site which has a goodly amount of information on car usually ignored by those who are infatuated with the cars driven by  the rich and famous.

 

http://sports.racer.net/index1.html

 

This bit from that site give little known info on the make of cars which was my first favorite open wheel car almost fifty years ago.

Even this site does not give LeGrand or Rex Ramsey the credit they should get for winning a round of the Canadian Formula A series in 1969, at Troix-Rivierers but it does tell of one major reason the last LeGrand had that hampered it.

I do remember reading, probably in AutoWeek and Comp. Press that they entered the race mostly as a way to break the car in.

 

Mk6 and Mk7 - Heavy Metal

While Bruce was in Europe, Red was putting together the latest model, the Mk6. Essentially a production version of the Mk5, the Mk6 was designed to replace the Mk3. The Mk6 was run in either FB or FC, depending on the engine that was installed. It was a bigger car than the Mk3 and now came stock with 7.5 x 13 in front and 9.75 x 13 rear wheels which soon grew to 11 x 13s by mid 1967. A number of these cars are thought to have been producedalthough, there is very little specific competition history. The 1.6 liter Lotus and Alfa twin cams engines were the powerplant of choice for FB.

In this era, the expanding wheel business became a major part of LeGrand racecars. It kept the doors open and allowed Red LeGrand the resources to follow his passion of building race cars with his name.

The Mk7 was designed to contest the SCCA 5 liter Formula A class. Previously, the FA class was a bit of a catch all, but starting in 1968, the class was strictly a class for 5 liter engines based on production V8 blocks. Red and Bruce decided to literally throw together a car from the parts bin. The Mk6 FB car was used as the starting point. The Chassis was widened, a large radiator was fit in the nose, the engine bay was beefed up a bit , and external side pod tanks were fitted. With many similarities to previous LeGrand Mk3-6, the Mk7 is a tube space frame chassis, with the stated benefit being that it is easier for the private entrant to repair than it would be to repair a monocoque construction chassis.. Brakes were 10.5 in diameter solid disks with Airheart single pot caliper. These were later swapped for double pot Airheart calipers on the Mk7A. The rear brakes used LeGrand's signature placement of the disk inboard of the upright to improve cooling. Wheels were 9.5 in wide by 13 in. diameter front, and 11 x 13 rear. 10 in and 14 in. x 15 in. diameter wheels were used on the Mk7A.

The Mk7 was designed to use either the Chevy 302 or Ford 302. The chassis design was different for the two engines. In prototype form (S/N 001), a stock Camero Z28 engine with wet sump was used with a McKay manifold and downdraft Webers. This engine produced 400-425 HP and the total engine cost was less than $1000. Customers were soon putting full race dry-sumped engines in the cars. Most customers chose the Chevy over the Ford block.

The S/N 001 car used a ZF gearbox. The Hewland LG500 was chosen for later cars because it was easier to work on and because it provided more flexibility in gear selection. Wheel base was 90 in., with front and rear track being 57 in. Two 15-gallon gas tanks (the SCCA maximum allowed) are placed longitudinally on each side of the driver. Dry weight was 1270 lb. (rule minimum was 1250 lb.). Proprietary LeGrand cast magnesium parts were used for the wheels, uprights and wheel hubs. Steering was via LeGrand rack and pinion. In 1968, the Mk7 sold complete, ready to race, with a 450 HP Bartz dry-sumped engine, for $13,372.

By Christmas, Red and Bruce had a car complete. Bruce recalls that despite the rush job, the car actually was very good, had reasonable balance; considering the relatively skinny treaded tires and no wings; and was so light that it was really fast. Bruce said that it was the first time he had driven a car with such power and torque, and it was awesome. Perhaps the weakest components were the brakes, but they did work.

On 25 February, 1968, the prototype car was entered in the Pacific Coast season opener at Las Vegas, with Bruce Eglinton driving. This was a national event, and Bruce scored a victory right out of the box. Bruce recalls that he actually did a "horizon job" on the field and won quite easily. Keep in mind that this was a new class, and the rest of the constructors had not yet gotten their cars sorted. The little LeGrand Race Car Company was able to pull something together quickly and outclass the field.

The Mk7 has the dubious distinction of seriously curtailing the blossoming career of Bruce. After the Las Vegas victory, the LeGrand factory was on a high. They took their trophy home and promptly built an identical second car (002). In June of 1968, the car was taken to Whitman stadium in Pacoma, Los Angeles to just check that there were no oil or water leaks, and then it was taken up to Willow Springs for chassis tuning prior to its first F5000 race. The rules required fuel cells, and Red ordered some, but they didn't fit in the tanks. No one thought much of this, because Bruce hadn't driven a car yet in his career with fuel cells. So, as always, gas was put straight in the aluminum side tanks. Nomex wasn't required until 1968, and Bruce didn't yet have a Nomex suit yet. So, he went out in shirtsleeves and helmet, but no gloves because "he was going to just warm it up". While exiting the pits in first gear, the throttle stuck. Bruce's first instinct was to jam on the brakes. In previous cars, this would overcome the engine while you found the kill switch. With 500 HP and gobs of torque, the little single pot Airheart brakes were no match for the car's power and just locked up the front wheels eliminating steering. Bruce fumbled for the kill switch, unwilling to push in the clutch, for fear of destroying the team's new engine. Things happen fast with 500 HP pushing you, and Bruce hit the wall, maybe at only 60 mph before finding the kill switch. The left front corner was torn off with an A-arm piercing the left fuel tank. The car burst into a ball of fire. The bodywork had been removed which was good and bad, since it allowed gas to spray all over Bruce, but did allow him to exit the car quickly. Bruce suffered 3rd degree burns over 30% of his body, was in the hospital for 18 months, and was very lucky to live.

This unfortunate incident was quite a blow to LeGrand. His star driver and chief engineer was out just when things were looking promising. Lew Sells won the Championship that year in an Eagle. LeGrand built six Mk7s in 1968; five used Chevy power, one Ford. Jim Paul came in to help Red with the engineering chores. S/N 002 was rebuilt, and Rex Ramsey was chosen as the factory driver. Rex did okay, but a LeGrand Mk7 never won another race at the National level, although they did win several regional events. Chuck Elliot raced S/N 002 in the first L&M Championship, and had a respectable result. The LeGrand team gained experience, learning that components that were strong and reliable with 170 horse power were no match for 500 HP.

Mk11 - Next Generation F5000

Bruce Eglington had started the design on the next formula 5000 car before his accident, the development from racing on the national level and the experience gained required an all new car. The Mk11 F5000 car was designed by Jim Paul with a clean sheet of paper and was built to contest the USAC series. It featured a beefed up chassis (still tube frame) and suspension components, wider wheels, and stronger uprights. Although Rex Ramsey raced it first, Jim continued to race the car in the Pro Series and made middle of the pack finishes. The car often broke components, even with the beefed up design. It is believed that only one Mk11 was built. By this time, all manner of wings had grown on race cars. It was tough to keep up with the development capabilities of the larger British companies.



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#2 DCapps

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 03:58

I was another of those fascinated by the LeGrand operation. There was an article in Comp Press on the Las Vegas meet and also one on the cars for the revised FA, the LeGrand being of those featured. While FA in 1968 allowed stock blocks up to 5-liters, it also kept the provision for 3-litre "pure" racing engines, although only Gus Hutchison seemed to make that option work. The Lou Sell Smothers Brother Eagle was a really nice looking car. That said, as with Bob, I have always had a soft spot for LeGrand and some of the others who seem to have been lost in the shuffle. One of the great joys even until today is seeing the amazing machines that were produced in someone's garage and then found their way into the pages of R&T, SCI, Comp Press, and SCG. Thanks, Bob, for picking up the torch for LeGrand.



#3 E1pix

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 05:46

My thanks too, Bob.

My recollection of the LeGrand FA cars were stories of them being a handful to drive, including comments of such by Sam Posey IIRC.

Additional to Formula A cars, there were plenty of LeGrands to be found at SCCA Club races in my youth, in D/Sports Racing, Formula C, and Formula Ford, with mixed results but a rabid enthusiast in Red.

I've also long been a fan of the little guys. I have a distinct recollection of meeting Red at the SCCA Runoffs at Road Atlanta in the '70s, but recall little save for his driver in FF being a known karter named Chuck Pittenger. If memory serves, he got a 6th at the Runoffs.

Edited by E1pix, 17 February 2018 - 09:25.


#4 Allen Brown

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 09:48

The text on that site was provided to it by Alan James, who has run the LeGrand Registry for over 25 years, and has been a prolific writer on this topic.

 

The Registry can now be contacted via Al's business website:

http://www.groupj.ne...d-registry.html



#5 Patrick Fletcher

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 10:10

Le Grand FA67 Chev #004 was at Bay Park New Zealand during 1969.



#6 RA Historian

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 14:14

 While FA in 1968 allowed stock blocks up to 5-liters, it also kept the provision for 3-litre "pure" racing engines, although only Gus Hutchison seemed to make that option work. 

At the risk of this being a tangent, I was baffled back in 1970, and still am today, as to why Hutchison switched cars that season. He had just won two F-5000  races in a F-1 Brabham BT-26A, but then abruptly switched to a F-5000 Lola T-190. Never did hear any reason why.

 

Tom



#7 island

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 17:15

GAZZETTE.jpg

 

Here is a newspaper story on Rex Ramsey`s victory in the 1969 Grand Prix de Trois-Rivières.



#8 Bob Riebe

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 19:51

Maybe I should take this to a new thread but does anyone know where, if they still exist, all of the other rare birds that ran the first year of Formula A,    or even the two years before it started, are at.

 

I know, actually at my age think, I have seen pictures of nearly all of them but as I saw them before the net existed, I do not know where at although in AutoWeek & Comp. Press adds is quite possibly the location.

Back when auto swap meets used to have gents selling old car mags., including old ones with road racing, I may have seen them in an odd magazine I thought some one wanted too much for.

Lordy, shame on me for dumping my AutoWeeks, at least those from the sixties and early seventies.

I have spent a few bucks buying old magazines and am going to have to go through the rats nest, mostly due to my brothers not putting back in place, of magazines I still have to see what I do have.

 

Island:

Thank You very much.

 

Rex Ramsey is still alive, or at least from a site I found and did not bookmark, was a few years back.

It was him responding on a blog to some one else how he is connected to vintage racing.

Have any of you seen  or spoke ,  tohim in the past ten years?

He should know pretty well the ins and outs of the last LeGrand Formula A car.


Edited by Bob Riebe, 13 February 2018 - 19:57.


#9 Jerry Entin

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 22:28

AroLbR.jpg

The LeGrand Mk 7 with Jerry Entin driving at I believe Santa Barbara in 1968

 

Bob: The article on the Mk 7 LeGrand isn't exactly correct. After Bruce Eglington was injured in the Prototype car, I talked to Red LeGrand and asked him what he would need for another car.

 

He said he had a chassis and needed a gearbox and engine. I said I would loan him an engine and gearbox if he let me run the car.I bought a ZF gearbox off Carroll Shelby's GT 40 spares and a stock 302 engine or crate engine as they call them now. This was just to shake the car down. I had Al Bartz put a set of Webber 48mm carbs on it and we dynoed it at Ryan Falconer's. It had a cam and mildly ported heads. It had around 420 hp. No racing pistons or rods. Just a stock 302 Camaro motor.

 

We then ran a club race at Santa Barbara that I won and a National at Riverside and a club race at Riverside, winning all of them.

 

We then went to Donnybrooke and had a rear hub fail in practice and then to Elkhart Lake where the timing gear broke bringing the car to the line these were all in 1968. The car was using stock Formula B go kart type brakes and also Formula B type rear hubs.

 

After those races Rex Ramsey drove the car in New Zealand and other races.

 

photo: Bob Schillings


Edited by Jerry Entin, 14 February 2018 - 03:02.


#10 E1pix

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 22:55

Maybe I should take this to a new thread but does anyone know where, if they still exist, all of the other rare birds that ran the first year of Formula A,    or even the two years before it started, are at.

 

I know, actually at my age think, I have seen pictures of nearly all of them but as I saw them before the net existed, I do not know where at although in AutoWeek & Comp. Press adds is quite possibly the location.

Back when auto swap meets used to have gents selling old car mags., including old ones with road racing, I may have seen them in an odd magazine I thought some one wanted too much for.

Lordy, shame on me for dumping my AutoWeeks, at least those from the sixties and early seventies.

I have spent a few bucks buying old magazines and am going to have to go through the rats nest, mostly due to my brothers not putting back in place, of magazines I still have to see what I do have.

 

Island:

Thank You very much.

 

Rex Ramsey is still alive, or at least from a site I found and did not bookmark, was a few years back.

It was him responding on a blog to some one else how he is connected to vintage racing.

Have any of you seen  or spoke ,  tohim in the past ten years?

He should know pretty well the ins and outs of the last LeGrand Formula A car.

I do know that an immaculately-restored FA car resides in the Midwest, but I think it best to ask its owner, a friend of ours, before telling more.

 

The ex-Ramsey car shown above — I think — is the car we saw at a vintage race at Pueblo Motorsports Park, Colorado last June. It was also in restored condition, but was red, so it's likely the Rocky Mountain Vintage Racing club that sanctioned the event would have more info. The owner was very nice, but I just can't recall his name...  

 

Edit: His name is Marty Fidrich… https://speedhive.my...essions/4454683


Edited by E1pix, 13 February 2018 - 22:59.


#11 Bob Riebe

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 00:18

Jerry you were there when what is now an odd ball was just another new make of racing  car.

Did you ever run with the Nike, Grizzly, Spectre etc. and talk to their drivers or get a look at their components?

 

Red LeGrand, Jerry Eisert and Bob McKee had other projects to keep them going, what was the spark behind some of the others?



#12 Jerry Entin

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 02:58

Bob: I was there and saw them all. Most of these cars were tube frames. There were no wings at first and the gearboxes were pretty bulky. The DG 300 didn't become available until the 1972 season.

 

In 1972 Sid Taylor and I helped Brian Redman run his Chevron B24. I thought that was a very nice car. They were monocoque construction by then.

I had also helped a site on the forum on the LeGrand cars many years ago.

http://forums.autosp...this-car/page-3



#13 Jim Thurman

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 17:13

I found this site which has a goodly amount of information on car usually ignored by those who are infatuated with the cars driven by  the rich and famous.

 

http://sports.racer.net/index1.html

 

 but it does tell of one major reason the last LeGrand had that hampered it.

 

The Mk7 has the dubious distinction of seriously curtailing the blossoming career of Bruce. After the Las Vegas victory, the LeGrand factory was on a high. They took their trophy home and promptly built an identical second car (002). In June of 1968, the car was taken to Whitman stadium in Pacoma, Los Angeles to just check that there were no oil or water leaks, and then it was taken up to Willow Springs for chassis tuning prior to its first F5000 race. The rules required fuel cells, and Red ordered some, but they didn't fit in the tanks. No one thought much of this, because Bruce hadn't driven a car yet in his career with fuel cells. So, as always, gas was put straight in the aluminum side tanks. Nomex wasn't required until 1968, and Bruce didn't yet have a Nomex suit yet. So, he went out in shirtsleeves and helmet, but no gloves because "he was going to just warm it up". While exiting the pits in first gear, the throttle stuck. Bruce's first instinct was to jam on the brakes. In previous cars, this would overcome the engine while you found the kill switch. With 500 HP and gobs of torque, the little single pot Airheart brakes were no match for the car's power and just locked up the front wheels eliminating steering. Bruce fumbled for the kill switch, unwilling to push in the clutch, for fear of destroying the team's new engine. Things happen fast with 500 HP pushing you, and Bruce hit the wall, maybe at only 60 mph before finding the kill switch. The left front corner was torn off with an A-arm piercing the left fuel tank. The car burst into a ball of fire. The bodywork had been removed which was good and bad, since it allowed gas to spray all over Bruce, but did allow him to exit the car quickly. Bruce suffered 3rd degree burns over 30% of his body, was in the hospital for 18 months, and was very lucky to live.

This unfortunate incident was quite a blow to LeGrand. His star driver and chief engineer was out just when things were looking promising. Lew Sells won the Championship that year in an Eagle. 

 

I was aware of the Bruce Eglinton story solely because of a feature column that appeared in the Los Angeles Times upon his return to racing in 1970. A couple of corrections to the above (highlighted).

 

The wording makes it sound like the testing accident happened at Willow Springs, but it was Whiteman Stadium, a 1/3 mile oval, where the test accident took place on the evening of June 6, 1968. Interestingly, thanks to the internet, I notice that versions of Eglinton's story appeared as columns by different writers, in a few different newspapers in the greater Los Angeles area leading up to that same weekend. This would seem to indicate a pre-race PR release. In those, as well as the original report on the accident, the accounts vary a bit. The original account had the car doing 30-40 mph, which was 60-70 mph in the accounts by the time of Eglinton's return.

 

As an aside, Whiteman Stadium was built at Whiteman Airport/Air Park by Walt James for the Whiteman family (whose sons raced stock cars with great success in Southern California). The defining, and unusual, feature of the track was that it had one highly banked turn and one flat turn.

 

Also, the champion driver was, of course, Lou Sell.  Or perhaps I should write, Dr. Lou Sell.


Edited by Jim Thurman, 16 February 2018 - 04:45.


#14 DCapps

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 19:19

Ah, that now makes sense regarding the Eglington crash given that I vaguely recall it being at a track, as in an oval (not named) and not a road course, but all the other stories seemed to indicate it was at Willow Springs so I thought I was mistaken. Never realized that it happened at the Whiteman Stadium track, which was different to say the least. Thanks to doing penance for those better able at managing to get on with their lives and avoiding foreign travel to Southeast Asia, I missed a big wad of the initial seasons of FA, not seeing my first FA event until the Dallas race in 1970. Most of the " FA specials" Bob mentions had pretty much come and gone by then, but I have always thought that the first several seasons were problem the best and most interesting, up to maybe 1971 or 1972. Too bad that the deck seemed to be stacked against LeGrand and the others in US racing after awhile.



#15 group7

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 20:31

Couple of images here of bruce Eglinton, and his LeGrand.

 

https://vintageracec...2015/08/egl.jpg

 

https://vintageracec...nton-passes-on/


Edited by group7, 14 February 2018 - 20:35.


#16 Jerry Entin

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 02:10

wBdG3D.jpg

Crew Chief Mike Allison and Sam Posey and Jerry Entin and Jack Evans and Red LeGrand

This is at Donnybrooke in 1968 and we are looking at the broken rear hub of the LeGrand Mk 7.

 

Bruce Eglington was a very accomplished Formula driver. If he wouldn't have been injured, the LeGrand car would have been a front runner in the Formula A series as it was called in those days.

 

I had never driven an open wheel car before and the LeGrand seemed like a very nice car, other then having too small of brakes and weak rear hubs.

 

photo:Sue Allison

Mike Allison collection


Edited by Jerry Entin, 16 February 2018 - 02:18.


#17 Bob Riebe

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 02:22

wBdG3D.jpg

Crew Chief Mike Allison and Sam Posey and Jerry Entin and Jack Evans and Red LeGrand

This is at Donnybrooke in 1968 and we are looking at the broken rear hub of the LeGrand Mk 7.

 

Bruce Eglington was a very accomplished Formula driver. If he wouldn't have been injured, the LeGrand car would have been a front runner in the Formula A series as it was called in those days.

 

I had never driven an open wheel car before and the LeGrand seemed like a very nice car, other then having too small of brakes and weak rear hubs.

 

photo:Sue Allison

Mike Allison collection

Did you ever meet Jim Paul who designed and raced the Mk11?



#18 island

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 15:13

UNTITLED-_SCANNED-55.jpg

 

Rex Ramsey & LeGrand Mk11 at the 1969 Sebring L&M Grand Prix (Photo: Rex Ramsey collection).



#19 Jerry Entin

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 21:38

LVot8s.jpg

Red LeGrand in cowboy hat and Jerry Entin at back of car and John Middleton working on car.

When I ran the car, Red LeGrand came with me and we had John Middleton helping him.

 

After the two pro races we tried to run, Rex Ramsey took over and I believe he started to make improvements to the car, such as better brakes and rear hubs and a wing.

 

After 1968 I didn't race any longer except I tried to run the 1969 Riverside Grand Prix in a Lola T 163 with a Chrysler Hemi. Ex Ron Dykes car,

 

photo: John Wilson


Edited by Jerry Entin, 17 February 2018 - 21:46.


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#20 Bob Riebe

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 21:59

"After 1968 I didn't race any longer except I tried to run the 1969 Riverside Grand Prix in a Lola T-163 with a Chrysler Hemi. Ex Ron Dykes car."

 

You should start a thread about that,  I have always wondered what it was like for the few who tried the Hemi in those cars.



#21 Bob Riebe

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Posted 26 February 2018 - 21:13

Thank you all for the information and pictures of the LeGrand.

 

I found while searching for Formula A pictures of various rare  makes that it is almost easier to find them by rather than type in what you are looking for, find a site with pictures that

is kinda-sorta related, as often the web site yo are searching in google will give you pictures that outside of having four open wheels is not directly related to what you are looking for.

 

It seems to me that the web with supposed improvements the web is less useful than it used to be unless you have hours to search using alternative words of phrases than what you really want.

 

Does anyone here know how many Indy were actually modified for Formula A racing?

There is at the Facebook Formula 5000 site a Gerhardt that was rebuilt as a Formua A racer.


Edited by Bob Riebe, 27 February 2018 - 21:10.


#22 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 February 2018 - 01:55

Here is the converted Gerhardt

 

13322169_1552181055084251_77122474387255

13319960_1552239818411708_48160573497735

 

 

Here it is pre-coversion

13322169_1207534702614065_45580005311231


Edited by Bob Riebe, 28 February 2018 - 01:57.


#23 Bob Riebe

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 18:01

In the U.K. and Europe., how many and who were the equivalents of LeGrands, Eisert, Nike, etc.?

The small manufacturers who gave it a good shot but just were outspent or out manned?

 

I guess you can add the boys down under to this question.

I have searched the net but finding picutures of something that is not Lola, McLaren, Trojan etc. is damn near more work that it is worth.


Edited by Bob Riebe, 09 March 2018 - 23:55.


#24 E1pix

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 18:05

Thanks for posting the converted Gerhardt, with the Lola airbox it looks really good!

#25 Allen Brown

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 19:04

In the U.K. and Europe., how many and who were the equivalents of LeGrans, Eisert, Nike, etc.?
The small manufacturers who gave it a good shot but just were outspent or out manned?

I guess you can add the boys down under to this question.
I have searched the net but finding picutures of something that is not Lola, McLaren, Trojan etc. is damn near more work that it is worth.


You may find some pictures and information here:
http://www.oldracing.../f5000/cars.php

#26 Allen Brown

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 22:04

Yes, fine, whatever, but your question was "In the U.K. and Europe., how many and who were the equivalents of LeGrans, Eisert, Nike, etc.?"

 

I gave you a link to a page that lists the 30 constructors that participated in that series.  That might at least give you a start on your search.